[New Product] Champions Complete

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44090[/ATTACH]

now that wasn't so hard was it

 

And HG could still use Champions: The Super Roleplaying Game instead of Champions Complete:p

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I'm not saying but every book back in print. Yet about 80-90% of the 6E books are out of stock and impossible to get in lgs.

 

I don't know whereabout you are in Montréal but last time I went there I think le Valet d'Coeur had pretty much everything except for the core book.

[MisterVimes]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I just popped back in to say (A) Thank you and ( Please take my money.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

(shrug) While I was meaning it somewhat jokingly' date=' part of the reason I suggested it is because sex appeal draws in younger potential players, who are usually male, and RPGs such as Hero needs fresh faces. I want the fanbase to grow, not constantly cannibalize the existing pool of players. I have hopes that the new book can attract new hobbyists to join us.[/quote']

 

I would gently remind you that most of us started playing Champions as young people, mostly male, with books that didn't use overt sex appeal on the cover. And the one version of Champions that did use overt sex appeal on the cover was Champions: New Millennium, so...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

And HG could still use Champions: The Super Roleplaying Game instead of Champions Complete:p

 

 

No they couldn't, because it's already the name of another product and would cause pointless confusion. Plus, unless I mis-read something up thread the current Champions book will still be available online and at Cons until they run out of stock and even then the PDF will still be available. Two products with the exact same name simply doesn't work, especially when one of the products has already had numerous complaints about its contents being unclear.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I would gently remind you that most of us started playing Champions as young people' date=' mostly male, with books that didn't use overt sex appeal on the cover. And the one version of Champions that [b']did[/b] use overt sex appeal on the cover was Champions: New Millennium, so...

Hell, I started with 5ER. Wasn't a whole lot of "sex appeal" to that cover...

[esampson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I would gently remind you that most of us started playing Champions as young people' date=' mostly male, with books that didn't use overt sex appeal on the cover. And the one version of Champions that [b']did[/b] use overt sex appeal on the cover was Champions: New Millennium, so...

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

I suspect that Champions: New Millennium's failure might have had to do with things other than the cover.

 

That said, I agree that I don't think the game really needs to use overt sex appeal on the cover to generate sales. I'm actually very excited about CC because I think that the lowered economic barrier to entry ($40 instead of $80-115) as well as looking a lot less intimidating at 240 pages will help encourage new players.

[Steve]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I would gently remind you that most of us started playing Champions as young people' date=' mostly male, with books that didn't use overt sex appeal on the cover. And the one version of Champions that [b']did[/b] use overt sex appeal on the cover was Champions: New Millennium, so...

 

I understand what you're saying, but I started playing Hero about 30 years ago, and the art for all RPGs was not as eye-catching as it is today. The market today is different, especially when you look at video game covers, which draws away potential rpg players.

 

I'm just thinking that any little extra bit of glitter that gets a potential new player to crack the cover of the book and look through it helps. That's all I'm saying.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I was mostly just wanting to take a cheap shot at Champions: New Millennium...

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I was mostly just wanting to take a cheap shot at Champions: New Millennium...

 

I loved C:NM. Hated the cover.

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

No they couldn't' date=' because it's already the name of another product and would cause pointless confusion. Plus, unless I mis-read something up thread the current Champions book will still be available online and at Cons until they run out of stock and even then the PDF will still be available. Two products with the exact same name simply doesn't work, especially when one of the products has already had numerous complaints about its contents being unclear.[/quote']

 

I think you missed the spirit of my post. I was replying to dmjalund were he had edited the Champions cover so it was NOT called "The Super Roleplaying Game"

[MisterVimes]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I miss the days of George Perez covers.

[scorpionx1]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

As far as color goes, I think the cover art will be important to grab attention. Let's face it, the two books of 6E were not very inspiring on their covers, and I've heard them compared to textbooks.

 

Maybe the new book can prominently feature Saphire's assets on the cover art to attract attention from new players.

 

certainly. look, the cover to champs beyond was amazing. something like that with action and exploding sheot in the background but with the millenium city champs. that would be awesome

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

certainly. look' date=' the cover to champs beyond was amazing. something like that with action and exploding sheot in the background but with the millenium city champs. that would be awesome[/quote']

 

Same artist...

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

well said. my FLGS has heaps of HERO books but i notice that none of them move. noticeably absent from the collection is 6E1.

 

got caught up in all this discussion. do we have a release date yet???

 

I would suggest that it's very hard for someone not working in said FLGS to tell what moves and what doesn't. They could be selling a ton of HG stock, and getting replenished in the time between your visits. I would say that the real gauge of whether a system sells or not is not that it is on the shelves, but it's absence from the shelves. Also product that is marked down also denotes something either obsoleted by a new edition or something that hasn't moved well.

 

The release "date" is Fall. I am sure that we will get a more solid date once they get product in the printer's que and find out when the items are shipping.

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

The problem there isn't the writeup. The problem is Doctor Destroyer's writeup. The latest two editions raised the power bar to the point where anyone under six feet tall can't fit the dice their character rolls in one hand.

 

This is nuts. Go back to 10d6 as your starting point rather than 12, with 14 for mighty villains and some of the more experienced heroes, and 15-18 for master villain types. The system worked this way for years and it wasn't broken. Now Doctor Destroyer can level whole cities with a few well placed bolts. This is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Whatever else the 4th edition BBB did, this was about the right range. There was no need to amplify it or overcomplicate it. Plus, now there is no model. Literally, the characters in the CU are so disparate that it's difficult to find a range to continuously challenge players. All games have a sweet spot. Doctor Destroyer's power level destroys that, too.

 

Actually 4th ed BBB assumed 12d6 average. It's back in the Champions source book where they discuss what power level their fans play at. Of all the AOL members who participated most of them played at 12d6.

 

I DO agree that the Masterminds are much too powerful, but they do publish other lower powered write ups in the 3 big Mastermind books (for Mechanon, Doc Destroyer and Empress Vhan.)

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Champions 6E does not. It says it's "your ultimate guide to superheroic adventure using the HERO System' date='" but the cover does not explicitly state that the HERO System rulebooks are separate products that are required to use that book.[/quote']

 

Fantasy Hero 6e is the same.

 

It's really too bad. It should have been spelled out on the back cover that one needed either Hero Basic or 6e1 and 6e2 to play. It's almost a bait and switch. Where the customer thinks they are buying a complete rules system, gets it home and then finds that they need another rulebook or two to play. It's not a good way to engender goodwill with potential new players.

[scorpionx1]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Same artist...

 

okay you sold me then!

 

just checked google, first day of fall is sept 22. countdown is on!!!!!!

[Sketchpad]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I miss the days of George Perez covers.

 

Man, so do I! I loved those books. I also miss Seeker and the 4th ed Champions and, in all honesty, I also miss C:NM. I'd really like to see a comprehensive CU book that includes The Champions' history and the heroes that have been members

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

The problem there isn't the writeup. The problem is Doctor Destroyer's writeup. The latest two editions raised the power bar to the point where anyone under six feet tall can't fit the dice their character rolls in one hand.

 

This is nuts. Go back to 10d6 as your starting point rather than 12, with 14 for mighty villains and some of the more experienced heroes, and 15-18 for master villain types. The system worked this way for years and it wasn't broken. Now Doctor Destroyer can level whole cities with a few well placed bolts. This is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Whatever else the 4th edition BBB did, this was about the right range. There was no need to amplify it or overcomplicate it. Plus, now there is no model. Literally, the characters in the CU are so disparate that it's difficult to find a range to continuously challenge players. All games have a sweet spot. Doctor Destroyer's power level destroys that, too.

 

You should chat with our own Lord Mhoram sometime. More than once he's mentioned his past campaign in which his team of PC heroes (all long-running, experienced characters) took down Fifth Edition Dr. Destroyer in less than a turn of combat.

 

That just illustrates that there's great diversity in the standard of power level, and player/GM expectations, among Champsfiles. Some want street-level adventures, others four-color, while some aim for full-on cosmic -- and sometimes mixing them up, for the sake of variety. I think Hero Games, with their Champions Villains trilogy, has done a pretty good job of providing a wide range of foes for any campaign, who are also examples of various builds. Since we're talking "master villains," let's consider CV Vol. I. Yes, you have your super-heavyweights in the combat stat department: Dr. Destroyer, Mechanon, Takofanes, and others. But you also have light-heavyweights (Holocaust, Warlord, Shadow Queen, etc.); middleweights (Kinematik, King Cobra, Slug, and so on); lightweights (Prof. Paradigm, Slun, Istvatha V'han); and even virtual non-combatants (Dr. Moreau, Franklin Stone). I think any GM would be hard-pressed to find no one in the book they could use for a campaign.

 

To the extent this situation is "problematic," it's only in having these disparate characters co-habiting the same game setting, in this case the Champions Universe. But if that is a problem it's one shared by the worlds of the comic-book source material, which feature many characters covering the same wide disparity in power. But like writers in comics, a conscientious GM can readily make it all work by tailoring the encounter situations to the needs of the PCs and the strengths of the villains.

[PhantomGM2602]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

AWWWWYEEEAHHH!!! That's what I want!!!! I'm hoping there'll be some copies left by the time I get my money.

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I don't know whereabout you are in Montréal but last time I went there I think le Valet d'Coeur had pretty much everything except for the core book.

 

Not anymore. Out of the 6E core only the second one is still in stock. They have some 6E supplements. Beyond that their main distributor has all the 6E books as TOS. This is the supplier they use: http://www.alliance-games.com/ . Click on guests than check under company. All are listed as temporarily out of stock. I'm not saying you can't get the books. It's just damn really hard. Beyond Valet not many others carry as many 6E books in stock.

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I understand what you're saying, but I started playing Hero about 30 years ago, and the art for all RPGs was not as eye-catching as it is today. The market today is different, especially when you look at video game covers, which draws away potential rpg players.

 

I'm just thinking that any little extra bit of glitter that gets a potential new player to crack the cover of the book and look through it helps. That's all I'm saying.

 

Agreed and seconded. No one is saying that HG should bankrupt themsleves with art in cc yet imo needs something extra.

[Balabanto]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

You should chat with our own Lord Mhoram sometime. More than once he's mentioned his past campaign in which his team of PC heroes (all long-running, experienced characters) took down Fifth Edition Dr. Destroyer in less than a turn of combat.

 

That just illustrates that there's great diversity in the standard of power level, and player/GM expectations, among Champsfiles. Some want street-level adventures, others four-color, while some aim for full-on cosmic -- and sometimes mixing them up, for the sake of variety. I think Hero Games, with their Champions Villains trilogy, has done a pretty good job of providing a wide range of foes for any campaign, who are also examples of various builds. Since we're talking "master villains," let's consider CV Vol. I. Yes, you have your super-heavyweights in the combat stat department: Dr. Destroyer, Mechanon, Takofanes, and others. But you also have light-heavyweights (Holocaust, Warlord, Shadow Queen, etc.); middleweights (Kinematik, King Cobra, Slug, and so on); lightweights (Prof. Paradigm, Slun, Istvatha V'han); and even virtual non-combatants (Dr. Moreau, Franklin Stone). I think any GM would be hard-pressed to find no one in the book they could use for a campaign.

 

To the extent this situation is "problematic," it's only in having these disparate characters co-habiting the same game setting, in this case the Champions Universe. But if that is a problem it's one shared by the worlds of the comic-book source material, which feature many characters covering the same wide disparity in power. But like writers in comics, a conscientious GM can readily make it all work by tailoring the encounter situations to the needs of the PCs and the strengths of the villains.

 

The problem with this is that this is not how roleplaying games work. It is how comic books work, with the magical power of writers fiat, but the moment that you insert the twin factors of power level via character points and rolling dice, that becomes extremely unlikely. Like writers in comics be darned. The GM is creating the setting. He can make the setting so that there's no need for finagling that stuff. Insert your controls at the point of origin rather than forcing yourself to figure out why the heck things work that way later. If you, the GM, take a little time before the campaign starts to set up your parameters and stick to them, the game runs itself after a certain point. And this is really what you want, because worldbuilding should be about characters, and not about tailoring encounter situations to the needs of the PCs. That means that as a GM, you have failed. You don't want to create a world where the obvious metatext is that the heroes are always going to win, even if nine times out of ten, that is going to be the case.

 

What you want is a world where even if that metatext is there under the surface, the possibility of failure exists. The problem is that so many people run the system "Rules Light" that there's a kind of sense that "The GM is here to provide us with the feeling of victory." You have to choose your words carefully in this environment, and be careful what you say to people, but...

 

The GM is there to provide the players with a set of challenges. How the players deal with those challenges is up to them. So building the setting the right way out of the box takes care of the problems that disparate cohabitation creates.

 

Here's why. Let's say a group of player characters get into a dispute with another group of PCs. (And yes, I am aware that in my game, some of these characters may be played by the same people.) For whatever reason, a fight breaks out.

 

This is the real reason why you have to do this. Because if a fight does break out between player characters, you want that fight to be fun. It's a classic part of the superhero genre. The GM has little say in the result other than to adjucate the rules. Plus, grossly disparate power levels leads to a whole host of not-fun stuff in cases like this. "Why can't I be as powerful as Doctor Dortmunder?" If there's one thing I've learned, it's that players are much more concerned about the people sitting around the table next to them and what those PC's can do than what villains and NPC's can do. And I've been doing this a real long time.

 

Maybe it's an east coast thing. But I tailored my world to prevent stuff like this from happening. Wars of escalation between player characters are what break games into tiny little flinders. So I regulate the power of the game very closely in order to keep fun and story high, and disputes between characters at the level of characters. A limited range has always been better, and keeps things entertaining. No one feels like they're on the low end of the curve. Few are ever on the high end. But the game WORKS, and has worked for a long time.

 

You can build a setting where this is the rule rather than the exception. It does function. It may not be to everyone's taste, but not every game is for everyone.

[RexMundi]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Man' date=' so do I! I loved those books. I also miss Seeker and the 4th ed Champions and, in all honesty, I also miss C:NM. I'd really like to see a comprehensive CU book that includes The Champions' history and the heroes that have been members [/quote']

 

There is no Seeker. All of the Champions of that era were trapped on a forcefield encased Island Trap designed by Dr. Destroyer. Everyone in turn was hunted down and eaten by Jaguar, who died of Food poisoning later from eating Seeker.

 

~Rex