[New Product] Champions Complete

[dmjalund]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

couldn't we save some money by having slightly less thick paper

 

- keep on thinking pages are stuck togetherwhen leafing through one of the basic books

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

HG makes money by making and selling books. Obviously they aren't going to put out a book they expect to have poor sales. Therefore saying they shouldn't make this (or any) book until they magically have more money saved up is just foolish. Likewise' date=' if the core books had done extremely well they would probably still be in print, so saying they should reprint the expensive color core books that didn't do well enough to fund there own further re-printing before printing this book that is [b']replacing them[/b] is ridiculous. If someone doesn't think this book is a good idea they are obviously entitled to their opinion, but berating the company for not considering things they have quite obviously already taken into consideration seems to be either ignorance of the situation or merely looking for a reason to complain.

 

I see you missed pr ignored the part where it was posted that all viewpoints are allowed in this thread. And no it's not complaining it's as AA just making a well intentioned suggestions. I get you want to defend the company and respect that. Except now your coming off as the stereotypical fanboy that does not want anything bad said about the company they like.

 

I'm not saying but every book back in print. Yet about 80-90% of the 6E books are out of stock and impossible to get in lgs. That is not a good thing imo. If HG is releasing a book called CC and CU the background book is only availiable in PDF not print that is also not a good thing. A rpg called Champions yet the background book is hard to get. It's one thing when a few 6E books are no longer available in print. Quite another when almost the entire 6E product line is no longer print. The problem is imo that many of the books no longer in print are books that imo are must buys. The exception being the 6E core and Champs book. A consumer wants to be able to get a book in whichever format they want. Having had to deal with consumers for the last 10 years they don't want to know or care about HG troubles. If HG does not deliver what they want they go elsewhere. I'm not one of them yet expect that to be how some of those interested in the product will feel. It has to be more than just CC in the works. Reprinting as well as new books with possibly 5E to 6E conversions in that order.

 

So you assume they ahve intentionally used bad art in the past? Or that they'll look at some really horrible art and say "meh' date=' put it in the book, art hasn't hurt our sales before"? Is this really somehow a concern?[/quote']

 

AA pretty much sums up the way I feel about this point.

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

well said. my FLGS has heaps of HERO books but i notice that none of them move. noticeably absent from the collection is 6E1.

 

SEconded. My lgs is in the same situation people wanting to get into the HS with no core. It's all good to say "if the Core Books had Sold so well Then....." I think HG wants to keep the core in print and that they sold well. They made two beautiful yet very expensive books that they cannot afford to reprint. Which is ironic imo. Why would people even assume the two core did not sell well when HG has supported 6E pretty well imo. If the core sales sucked so badly it kinds of makes no sense for HG to write more books for 6E let alone a CC does it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Really looking forward to this one for it's condensed nature (more than for the Champions) but even more so I hope there'll be a Complete Fantasy Hero (and/or a Universal Hero System) version somewhen down the line...

 

That's a tough one, IMO, and one where discussion of the "Complete" structure has bogged down in the past. CC will have all the rules, plus discussion of the Supers genre. Let us suppose, for a moment, that Hero publishes Fantasy Hero Complete, Star Hero Complete, Pulp Hero Complete, and Cyber Hero Complete. How many of these will a typical gamer purchase before becoming irked that he is re-purchasing the core rules multiple times?

 

However, if we don't have "Other Genres Complete" and the only way to get the rules is through Champions Complete, does that reduce the appeal to non-Supers gamers? Probably.

 

Options like a Hero System Rules (ie CC without Champions or any other genre) and genre splatbooks (maybe even including a Champions splatbook hived from the CC product) need to be considered as well. I'm not sure where the right answer lies. Perhaps Fantasy Complete, rewriting the rules solely to change examples from Supers tone to Fantasy tone would be a great seller, and a better option than, say "Genre Complete" being sold as a shrinkwrapped 2 volume set (Rules + Genre Book) with single volumes available as well. Maybe not. Gamers are an inconsistent and fickle bunch.

 

To some other comments, the simple fact is that, if the core rules did not sell profitably enough to pay for a new print run, then that seems like pretty solid evidence that the 2 volume colour glossy core rules were not a good business decision. Unfortunate, but that means Hero has to assess a better economic model. I definitely agree selling supplements to a game when the rules engine is not available is unsustainable, so that means getting the rules out there in some form. Maybe that means Hero backpeddles from the "all genres role playing system" model and focuses on Champions products, which have, I understand, been more consistent sellers. Does it mean new material or updating 5e material?

 

Well the Champions Villains Trilogy was a product update for the most popular line - how did that update do? Now Hero has to assess whether its problems link to those of 6e (hardcover colour art books are expensive and the units don't move enough to justify the cost), the genre (unlikely as its the popular line), the "reprint" aspect (maybe), the fact that this book will likely appeal to only GM's (maybe a player splatbook would have done better) or any of a number of other elements. Book of the Empress was a hardcover colour Supers GM appeal book, so I wonder what its sales say about the "reprint" aspect in isolation.

 

Ultimately, there aren't any easy answers, and it's easy for us to post, having a small sample of facts, lots of personal opinions and anecdotes and no financial stake in the results. But that free advice is worth what one pays for it, as is usually the case. Ultimately, Hero has to take these opinions into account along with much more objective data, and business reality, and assess their next steps. They've done so - the result is Champions Complete. Now we need to see where that leads.

[Steve]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

As far as color goes, I think the cover art will be important to grab attention. Let's face it, the two books of 6E were not very inspiring on their covers, and I've heard them compared to textbooks.

 

Maybe the new book can prominently feature Saphire's assets on the cover art to attract attention from new players.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

That's a tough one' date=' IMO, and one where discussion of the "Complete" structure has bogged down in the past. CC will have all the rules, plus discussion of the Supers genre. Let us suppose, for a moment, that Hero publishes Fantasy Hero Complete, Star Hero Complete, Pulp Hero Complete, and Cyber Hero Complete. How many of these will a typical gamer purchase before becoming irked that he is re-purchasing the core rules multiple times?[/quote']

 

It may be a quite a while, if ever, before Hero Games essays any more "Complete" books, beyond possibly Fantasy. As mentioned upthread, supers and fantasy were always their best sellers. Other genre books are apparently more niche market, and would be riskier for the company to invest in unless its financial status improves significantly.

 

But of course, such talk is highly premature. Champions Complete isn't even published yet, and much of HG's future publication prospects will hinge on how well it's received and what the gaming community thinks of it. For all we know, it may not even sell that well. [makes sign to avert evil]

[megaplayboy]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

As far as color goes, I think the cover art will be important to grab attention. Let's face it, the two books of 6E were not very inspiring on their covers, and I've heard them compared to textbooks.

 

Maybe the new book can prominently feature Saphire's assets on the cover art to attract attention from new players.

 

I miss Seeker. Nobody could "sell" getting the crap beaten out of them quite like him.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I miss Seeker. Nobody could "sell" getting the crap beaten out of them quite like him.

 

For some reason, the current crop of Champions team members don't grab me visually, neither pre- nor post-Cryptic. I find myself wishing the Champions Universe had a striking, dynamic flagship character that browsers at the LGS would immediately recognize and identify with the game and the setting. Someone like Superman or Batman for DC, or Spider-Man for Marvel.

 

I guess I wish they had brought Vanguard back.

[megaplayboy]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

For some reason, the current crop of Champions team members don't grab me visually, neither pre- nor post-Cryptic. I find myself wishing the Champions Universe had a striking, dynamic flagship character that browsers at the LGS would immediately recognize and identify with the game and the setting. Someone like Superman or Batman for DC, or Spider-Man for Marvel.

 

I guess I wish they had brought Vanguard back.

 

B-but then Steve would have to create a writeup that could credibly face down Dr. Destroyer for more than a couple of phases.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

B-but then Steve would have to create a writeup that could credibly face down Dr. Destroyer for more than a couple of phases.

 

I don't have a problem with that.

 

Actually, Darren had a concept for bringing back Vanguard which he'd been thinking of working into one book or another for a long time. I suspect Steve burning Vanguard to ash in Book Of The Destroyer kind of put the kibosh to that.

 

Then again, Steve isn't in charge of the CU any more, so who knows?

[Balabanto]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

The problem there isn't the writeup. The problem is Doctor Destroyer's writeup. The latest two editions raised the power bar to the point where anyone under six feet tall can't fit the dice their character rolls in one hand.

 

This is nuts. Go back to 10d6 as your starting point rather than 12, with 14 for mighty villains and some of the more experienced heroes, and 15-18 for master villain types. The system worked this way for years and it wasn't broken. Now Doctor Destroyer can level whole cities with a few well placed bolts. This is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Whatever else the 4th edition BBB did, this was about the right range. There was no need to amplify it or overcomplicate it. Plus, now there is no model. Literally, the characters in the CU are so disparate that it's difficult to find a range to continuously challenge players. All games have a sweet spot. Doctor Destroyer's power level destroys that, too.

[steriaca]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Um, can anyone tell me when Champions Compleat can come up for pre-sale, so I can send Hero my $40 without waiting for it to be up on the Hero Store?

[Steve]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I don't believe they are going to do a pre-sale because they haven't previously offered books for sale until they are in the warehouse. It might be different this time around, but I have my doubts.

[rstehwien]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

well said. my FLGS has heaps of HERO books but i notice that none of them move. noticeably absent from the collection is 6E1.

Yeah, really hard to sell supplements when you can't get the main book. I have a very hard time selling games to my group when they can't get the rulebooks... and my group will play just about anything I run.

 

Hoping that CC sells well and stays in print.

 

That's a tough one' date=' IMO, and one where discussion of the "Complete" structure has bogged down in the past. CC will have all the rules, plus discussion of the Supers genre. Let us suppose, for a moment, that Hero publishes Fantasy Hero Complete, Star Hero Complete, Pulp Hero Complete, and Cyber Hero Complete. How many of these will a typical gamer purchase before becoming irked that he is re-purchasing the core rules multiple times?[/quote']

Definitely would bother me. Several games have done this (White Wolf games for example) and I just don't play/buy them.

 

However' date=' if we don't have "Other Genres Complete" and the only way to get the rules is through Champions Complete, does that reduce the appeal to non-Supers gamers? Probably.[/quote']

Does for me (no interest in Champions; other systems do a better job for my supers needs), but I know Hero well enough to look over that because I know the rules are for any genre. But I know several people that refuse to play superhero games and wouldn't buy a game that looks like it is for superheroes. Heard of people that feel the same about fantasy or sci-fi.

 

Options like a Hero System Rules (ie CC without Champions or any other genre) and genre splatbooks (maybe even including a Champions splatbook hived from the CC product) need to be considered as well. I'm not sure where the right answer lies. Perhaps Fantasy Complete' date=' rewriting the rules solely to change examples from Supers tone to Fantasy tone would be a great seller, and a better option than, say "Genre Complete" being sold as a shrinkwrapped 2 volume set (Rules + Genre Book) with single volumes available as well. Maybe not. Gamers are an inconsistent and fickle bunch.[/quote']

I'd personally rather see a rulebook with a small discussion of different genres (like in the main books now) and genre books. The model works very well for Savage Worlds and the Hero 4th generic book still has an honored place on my shelf. That way I'd know that there is no chance of them trying to sell me the rules again. I know some people keep griping on rpg.net that it wasn't clear that Champions was a genre book ... I can sorta see that as the disclaimer that you need the rules is in the interior of the book a couple paragraphs down in the intro. Put the disclaimer on the back cover with a logo on the front indicating it is made for Hero6E.

 

But I'm not privy to any marketing info about Hero... maybe Champions will sell better than a generic book. I'm going to buy CC out of brand loyalty and to see how the writing style for the concise version works in hopes of a generic book.

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I'll almost certainly purchase Champs Complete too, mostly out of loyalty but also because I should put my money where my complaining mouth has been.

 

I think I'd like to see a Fantasy Complete and a Pulp/Modern Complete book. I could see how examples tailored to a particular setting would help a lot (and I mean A LOT) of people. I think folks who aren't into superheroes would rather by a complete rule set tailored to their needs.

 

After a small number of complete rule books though, I think I'd like to see HG switch to a supplement approach. Thus, if say The Valdorian Age is ever updated to 6e, it should be a supplement to Fantasy Complete, not a "complete" book in it's own right. Then the fantasy mavens would be happy -- they have a complete rules book just for them, and other fantasy books from Hero Games don't repeat those special fantasy rules. (Although obviously a supplement could have rule enhancements, changes, or other alterations specific to that book or sub-genre.)

 

Ditto for Champions and say a Modern complete book. Once those "complete" rule books are out, don't make the customer re-purchase the rules for that genre. Always refer back to the relevant complete rule book for that genre.

 

However, I could see a generic book being published eventually. It would be helpful to those who are getting into the system later, and might also help HG publish some more niche products that did merit a "complete" book by itself. A few completists might also want an all-in-one book. But I think the idea of publishing "complete" books is still the way to go. Hero Games should be a game company, not a rule book company. That's a subtle distinction, but an important one I believe.

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

{snip!}

Also, remember the competition. D&D and Pathfinder are still in colour, but those sell well enough that the authors make a decent living wage. M&M is in colour, but Green Ronin's release schedule is very erratic, even for their $1 PDFS. GURPS used to be in colour, but they sold so few volumes of the non-core books that a lot of their releases and re-releases (e.g. Fantasy, Space, Low Tech, Horror, etc.) have had to be in black and white.

 

D&D, and Pathfinder Core books are sold at or below cost. This is what we call a "Lost Leader". Hasbro and Paizo accept a loss on those books, with the idea that later players will buy supplement books that make up profit. Also Hasbro only runs it's first print run at cost. It rewards those who buy the books quickly. Later print runs are paid for by the increased cover price (which are placed at the level that Hasbro actually makes a profit).

 

Paizo releases only 2 hard cover books a year that also helps them with their budget. Paizo also releases multiple small books during the year. They might be Adventures or more campaign books. Those small books sell pretty well mostly because they LOOK cheap to buy. That is due to the low page count.

 

Perhaps Paizo has the right model. 1-2 books a year Hardcover + half a dozen small books (of no more than 36 pages). Perhaps the small books could take an interesting part of the Champions Universe and include basic information on that part. Include some half page writeups of Characters and one or two full pagers and be good to go. Doing that you can determine what parts mean the most to players.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I can't seem to access the back cover of Champions, but I thought it indicated you needed the core rules to play. I should point out, however, that I recall that because I was bringing it to the attention of the FLGS when they had a couple of copies on the shelf with no rulebooks. The FLGS most definitely did not know you needed separate rulebooks. To me, that's a marketing gaffe - the PR blurbs should be clear as to what is needed to play the game.

 

That issue, at least, is not a concern with Champions Complete.

[Crimson-Hawk]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

[rant]

 

If you don't like the concept of Champions Complete, then don't buy it. Buy 6Ev1, 6Ev2, and Champions 6E instead. They'll still be available as PDFs on the online store. See, problem solved.

 

If your FLGS (not just "LGS," you lazy biznatches) doesn't carry a book or if a book isn't in print, buy it in PDF format on the online store. See, problem solved.

 

Sheesh, why do people need to make things so complicated?

 

(Oh, and the first distinguished gentleman who pops off with "I absolutely refuse buy PDFs because I prefer the visceral feel of a dead-tree book in my hands" wins 5 Internetz, a trip to Disney World Moscow, and a free-ride scholarship to MIT's "How To Live In The 21st Century And Not Suck" degree program.)

 

[/rant]

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I can't seem to access the back cover of Champions' date=' but I thought it indicated you needed the core rules to play.[/quote']

 

Champions 6E does not. It says it's "your ultimate guide to superheroic adventure using the HERO System," but the cover does not explicitly state that the HERO System rulebooks are separate products that are required to use that book.

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

You seem to have completely missed the point of my first post you quoted which had nothing to do with color art at all. EDIT: Also' date=' I didn't actually go back and see who said it (hence why I didn't quote anyone), but "don't make this (staple of your business) item until you just [i']have[/i] more money somehow" doesn't seem like a very plausable suggestion for any company regardless of intent.

 

Ahh. I reread your post. All apologies. I tend not to be the most attentive reader and it was late.

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Maybe the new book can prominently feature Saphire's assets on the cover art to attract attention from new players.

 

No.

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

For some reason, the current crop of Champions team members don't grab me visually, neither pre- nor post-Cryptic. I find myself wishing the Champions Universe had a striking, dynamic flagship character that browsers at the LGS would immediately recognize and identify with the game and the setting. Someone like Superman or Batman for DC, or Spider-Man for Marvel.

 

I guess I wish they had brought Vanguard back.

 

Ditto!

 

But without the 70's haircut!

[Steve]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

No.

 

(shrug) While I was meaning it somewhat jokingly, part of the reason I suggested it is because sex appeal draws in younger potential players, who are usually male, and RPGs such as Hero needs fresh faces. I want the fanbase to grow, not constantly cannibalize the existing pool of players. I have hopes that the new book can attract new hobbyists to join us.

[dmjalund]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44090[/ATTACH]

now that wasn't so hard was it

[kahuna's bro]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

i miss seeker. Nobody could "sell" getting the crap beaten out of them quite like him.

qft