Pattern Ghost Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Technically' date=' all the way up to 5th edition your Combat Value (CV) was derived from DEX/3. It was just always split out as OCV and DCV. ECV was "Ego Combat Value" but there were plenty of instances where we'd see OECV and DECV. It then changed from "Ego Combat Value" to "Mental Combat Value".[/quote'] I guess you're right there. I guess I didn't think of it in those terms because back in 4th (mostly what I have material for) that it was more often just ECV back then on official write ups. For example, the stat blocks in Classic Enemies have the combat stats at the bottom, before the costs breakdown, as OCV, DCV, ECV, and Phases, even the mentalists. Then again, there are very few mentalists in the book. It seems like mentalists have always been the red-headed stepchild of Hero/Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete You know, I thought of a good title: Champions Complete Core Package! CCCP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete You know' date=' I thought of a good title: Champions Complete Core Package! CCCP![/quote']That just sounds like it's overcompensating for something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete That just sounds like it's overcompensating for something Nah, but it helps if you read it with a Russian accent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete In Motherland, Games Play You! (Actually, sometimes I do wonder if my games are playing me, especially my sports sims. I tend to get obsessive about my leagues and worry about the standings and the upcoming games.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstehwien Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete No matter what I may gripe about below; I'm very excited about "Champions Complete", think it will do well, and congratulations all around. A single $40 Print + PDF book is very approchable and I have high hopes it will bring new people to Hero. Okay' date=' everybody who's been saying this is the kind of product they and their game groups have been wanting for years... time to pony up![/quote'] I've been one of the ones clamoring for "hero concise" for a while and do plan to pony up! I'll be getting at least 3 copies... and if a game actually materializes more. A bit sad that it is Champions focused as I'm more interested in showcasing Hero as a generic system than having a superhero game (I've got 2 games I prefer for superhero play but love Hero for other genres). But I totally understand that Champions might sell better. Still I played Champions since 1st then Fantasy Hero and was super happy when Hero came out. What I've wanted is to see 6E slimmed down to a 4E size book with a cross genre cover. I hope that the cover of "Champions Complete" is evocative of the genre rather than the plain blue with an icon of Basic and v1&2. Many people judge a book by its cover or get attracted by the pretty pictures. If a generic book is ever put out... it should have a cover more like Hero 4E or the recent Storn cover for "Other Worlds" http://otherworldsrpg.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/cover-mock1.jpg Jason specifically said it is... Vanilla HERO. As Jason has noted elsewhere, one of the intentions is for Champions Complete to be able to take the place of 6E1, 6E2, Champions, and Basic in the Hero Games product line, so it essentially serves as the core rulebook, in addition to a superhero genre book. No. The Heroic-level rules are still included. Everything is treated with less extensive detail than it was in 6E1 and 6E2 (that was probably the primary design goal), and the Heroic rules are perhaps condensed even more than the Superheroic rules are. But they're in there. (After all, not all comic book stories are about superheroes... ) Glad to see that while the cover and examples will be geared toward Champions, it is still the full generic Hero I know and love. I'll be sad to see the full 6E1&2 go though. My wife and I talked about things and what we thought would be great is a concise book (like the one being made) but still having the more lengthly explanations and examples of the big books available is helpful for clarity. But I've got the full books and really only need one set to help clarify things. Maybe there will someday be a "Hero Explained" or "Hero FAQ" to fill in the gaps. Overall having one complete book is much better than basic and 2 full books. Much more approchable and easier to sell to new players. That's about it. The place where folks will notice the most "change" is in the presentation. Aside from the obvious more concise approach -- removal of a lot of repetition, elaboration, detail, and examples -- one noteworthy re-arrangement regards Power Modifiers. In Champions Complete, Adders, Advantages, and Limitations that can apply to one-and-only-one Power are listed with that Power's description. All other Adders, Advantages, and Limitations -- even if they can only apply to two Powers, or only apply to Vehicles or what have you -- are listed alphabetically in a single Power Modifiers chapter (and the description of each one indicates which Powers it can apply to). Consolidating things in this way will hopefully make things easier to find as well. I'm going to really enjoy this reorganization I think. I would think that part of the ideal market for any RPG is the people who have tried other RPGs in the same genre' date=' come out seriously dissatisfied, but still want to play in that genre. That's the [i']Pathfinder[/i] formula as far as I can tell -- grab the people who love the fantasy genre but have become disenchanted with where D&D has gone. I can easily see Champions appealing to disenchanted M&M players who want something meatier and more readily customizable. Actually I'm in this boat somewhat. I've played/run M&M and love it but was getting back into Hero for several reasons. One thing I wanted was a better explanation of things as M&M3E is very vague in parts (shapable area of effect). Another thing I wanted was a system that covers other genres better. I do disagree that M&M is less customizable in the superhero genre but it is less usable than hero cross genre... everything feels like a superhero comicc in M&M (especially 3E). Hero works less well for me as a superhero game than M&M; even back in the Champions 1st edtion days I had trouble with the concept of tracking endurance for a superhero (rarely do I see superheroes hiding behind a wall to take a recovery). But Fantasy Hero 1E did things so much better than D&D (then and now). Another possibility is to do the same thing with powers' date=' also akin to what M&M has been doing. I think small, affordable PDFs for powers and archetypes would be pretty cool [/quote'] With Hero 6E there are already some very complete power databases, spells, etc which should all be compatable. I'd hope that Hero doesn't do what M&M is doing with the power profiles as those products irritate me. By itself the power profiles aren't bad but you buy each one for $1.99 and there will be about 52 of them. But they are likely going to do what they did with the threat reports - collect them all into one book and resell at the end for less than half what you would have paid buying them one at a time. But what irritates me is that they added new material to the threat report collection... in a sense punishing me for buying them individually at the increased price or making me pay more for the collection (felt like an abused fan). So I'm refusing to buy any more power profiles and will just wait for the collection. While I'm saddened that Steve's work on the 6th ed is kinda sorta (I know it's not really; that's why I said "kinda sorta." I didn't fall off a turnip truck, you know) being pushed to the side/replaced, I think this is a good direction for Hero to be going in. As I mentioned above, I think that Steve's work is great reference material to explain things in detail. I've got some power gamers and people that like to do strange stuff in general and having a detailed explanation helps. But for general use I've wanted a more concise version. I also liked the 10 templates and power blocks mentioned in other posts... just thought I'd quoted enough for one day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete When might we see a preview of the cover? I took a look at Mr. Kennedy's artwork, and I liked what he had on his webpage. I hope it's an eye-catching cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcamtar Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete YES!! This sounds awesome, just what I've been wanting. I can hardly wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I'd hope that Hero doesn't do what M&M is doing with the power profiles as those products irritate me. By itself the power profiles aren't bad but you buy each one for $1.99 and there will be about 52 of them. But they are likely going to do what they did with the threat reports - collect them all into one book and resell at the end for less than half what you would have paid buying them one at a time. But what irritates me is that they added new material to the threat report collection... in a sense punishing me for buying them individually at the increased price or making me pay more for the collection (felt like an abused fan). So I'm refusing to buy any more power profiles and will just wait for the collection. Oh I'm sure they will. I view the 99¢ Power Profiles as supporting the larger book that's coming out, but that's just my opinion As for Hero, I realize (and own) the Champions Powers book, but there's always room for more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I don't know exactly what a "Power Profile" is, but a rogues gallery of builds for say $3 to $5 would get my attention. Obviously, wait to see how the new product does, etc., but just thinking out loud, that would be something I'd probably personally consider "bang for the buck." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Redfield Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Well, this product looks like it will be pretty perfect for me. I am new to HERO and it can be a big task getting into it. I love all the descriptions and detail in the rules, and I do understand that HERO is largely front-loaded, and that it's not some super-complex beast in play. But there's a lot to learn, those rulebooks are dense. I also am getting into Champions Online and the Champions setting does interest me, so this hits some key areas for me: it's got the full HERO rules and the Champions setting, but trimmed down, which will make it easier to digest. I have 6E1, but was never able to acquire a copy of 6E2. Since from what I understand, CC will have the full HERO 6E rules but minus a lot of the detailed examples and such, I can always reference 6E1 if I have a question on a power that I can't figure out on my own. Otherwise, I can have all the rules in the one book along with a good superhero setting. My darling Rachel, who wants to play certain types of games, is a bit intimidated by HERO, as well, since I am looking at using that for the games she wants. This will be much easier for her, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Miles Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Well, this product looks like it will be pretty perfect for me. I am new to HERO and it can be a big task getting into it. I love all the descriptions and detail in the rules, and I do understand that HERO is largely front-loaded, and that it's not some super-complex beast in play. But there's a lot to learn, those rulebooks are dense. I also am getting into Champions Online and the Champions setting does interest me, so this hits some key areas for me: it's got the full HERO rules and the Champions setting, but trimmed down, which will make it easier to digest. I have 6E1, but was never able to acquire a copy of 6E2. Since from what I understand, CC will have the full HERO 6E rules but minus a lot of the detailed examples and such, I can always reference 6E1 if I have a question on a power that I can't figure out on my own. Otherwise, I can have all the rules in the one book along with a good superhero setting. My darling Rachel, who wants to play certain types of games, is a bit intimidated by HERO, as well, since I am looking at using that for the games she wants. This will be much easier for her, too. Yeah. Plus, I've noticed on RPGNet that Rachel can be verrrryy particular about her characters and their capabilities and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Just so there is no confusion, it will not contain details about the Champions Universe as a setting (other than the example characters being from there). "Champions" is Hero Games' name for superhero roleplaying in general. The current "Champions" book is a genre book while "Champions Universe" is the setting which largely matches the CO MMO. Champions Complete will be a rules/genre combo, not a rules/setting combo. Well' date=' this product looks like it will be pretty perfect for me. I am new to HERO and it can be a big task getting into it. I love all the descriptions and detail in the rules, and I do understand that HERO is largely front-loaded, and that it's not some super-complex beast in play. But there's a lot to learn, those rulebooks are dense. I also am getting into Champions Online and the Champions setting does interest me, so this hits some key areas for me: it's got the full HERO rules and the Champions setting, but trimmed down, which will make it easier to digest. I have 6E1, but was never able to acquire a copy of 6E2. Since from what I understand, CC will have the full HERO 6E rules but minus a lot of the detailed examples and such, I can always reference 6E1 if I have a question on a power that I can't figure out on my own. Otherwise, I can have all the rules in the one book along with a good superhero setting.My darling Rachel, who wants to play certain types of games, is a bit intimidated by HERO, as well, since I am looking at using that for the games she wants. This will be much easier for her, too.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Redfield Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Ohhh. But it does contain the complete 6E HERO rules, yeah? And yes, Gary, Rachel can be very, very particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Miles Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Ohhh. But it does contain the complete 6E HERO rules, yeah? And yes, Gary, Rachel can be very, very particular. But she does seem to be a good kid (I think I can call her a kid- I'm 51). By the way, over there, I'm nightwind1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Ohhh. But it does contain the complete 6E HERO rules' date=' yeah?[/quote'] Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Redfield Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Yay! Okay. So if I want to use the Champions setting, I would need that and Champions Universe? Is there a 6E Galactic Champions, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhaierr Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Very much looking forward to this book. This is on my Must Buy list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete You know' date=' I thought of a good title: Champions Complete Core Package! CCCP![/quote'] Needs a red cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Yay! Okay. So if I want to use the Champions setting' date=' I would need that and Champions Universe? Is there a 6E Galactic Champions, too?[/quote'] Yes, Champions Universe for 6E gives broad coverage of the whole setting, adjusted to conform to Champions Online continuity in most cases. Other books delve into specific areas in greater detail, but this is the foundation. No 6E Galactic Champions yet, and frankly I wouldn't count on one for the foreseeable future. From what I read by Hero Games reps, GC was a decent but not outstanding seller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Redfield Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete That's too bad, I like the cosmic stuff best. Okay, so for a new player, what would be the best starting setup for gaming in the Champions universe? I'm assuming Champions Complete, of course, and Champions Universe and whatever else? What do you recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete There's very little difference between the 5e and 6e rule sets, so I doubt you'd have any difficulty using the setting material from the existing Galactic Champions. A few posters have noted that most of the changes are point costs, so pulling a character sheet direct from a 5e product and running it in 6e just means the point totals, which aren't all that relevant during play, may not match up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tal Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Yay! Okay. So if I want to use the Champions setting' date=' I would need that and Champions Universe? Is there a 6E Galactic Champions, too?[/quote'] You might want to check out the 6E book Champions Beyond if you already haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete That's too bad' date=' I like the cosmic stuff best. [/quote'] Don't Champions Beyond and Book of the Empress help scratch that itch? Or do you mean "cosmic" as over the top powerful? Okay' date=' so for a new player, what would be the best starting setup for gaming in the Champions universe? I'm assuming Champions Complete, of course, and Champions Universe and whatever else? What do you recommend? [/quote'] After these two books I'd say Champions Powers if you want tons of predefine powers (may speed up character creation quite a bit) and the Villains book if you want and extensive rogue gallery to draw from. The third tier mostly depends on what you want the game to focus on. Book of the Empress, Book of the Machine and Book of the Destroyer (the last two published under 5th but setting wise it's up to date) for even more depth on master villains and Beyond for supers in space. On top of it there is a lot of useful books published under 5th (including Galactic Champions) that are mostly 90-95% useable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete After these two books I'd say Champions Powers if you want tons of predefine powers (may speed up character creation quite a bit).. This, absolutely this. I had the opportunity recently to share HERO with a friend of mine. He's very much a crunchy gamer. He was very impressed with HERO's ability to do anything you want, but, it was very nice to see the viewpoint of a player that had not watched the game evolve over 30 years. The book he was most impressed with? Champions Powers. From the perspective of the uninitiated it was less a book of power sets and more of a view of the parts of the engine (so to speak) from all angles. He got to see how we all think in one large book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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