GestaltBennie Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete The solution to power variance is probably to define some campaign types and suggest variation for each. The problem is, some folks seem to get off on being smug and self-righteous about what's written on the main sheet, and completely ignore any tailoring advice, or the fact that the author offers tailoring advice in the first place.* That said, I think we can offer better advice, by defining the baseline scores for a recommended campaign in the front, how many turns/attacks that villain is expected to last (if not outright win), and how to adjust the character for campaign levels and numbers of characters. eg. Assuming a base of four PCs with an average of 10d6 attacks, 5 SPD, and 25 DEF for "medium" campaign. ---------- Master-class villains (such as Firewing, Dr. Destroyer, etc.), should have -8 DEF for light campaigns (40 active point attacks), +8 DEF for medium-heavy campaigns (60 active point attacks), +15 DEF for heavy campaigns (70 active point attacks), and +25 DEF (or +15 DEF and 1/2 Damage Reduction) for super-heavy campaigns (80 active point campaigns). Their OCV and DCV should, except where inappropriate to the concept, never be lower than the highest base OCV and DCV of the team, and never higher than two above the highest base OCV and DCV, unless one character has a OCV or DCV well above the rest of his team. For every member of the team above 4, add +20 STUN to the villain's base STUN, except when inappropriate to their concept. ----------- This could be defined at the start of the volume, saving some space in the writeups. Hopefully, that section would actually get read and acknowledged. But with this arrangement, we can better define what campaign the villain's expected to exist in, and offer more usable advice for the GM. We could also poll our player base to determine what campaign power levels the base writeups should aim for. *The easiest way to piss off a writer is to ignore what he writes when it doesn't fit into your agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete *The easiest way to piss off a writer is to ignore what he writes when it doesn't fit into your agenda. Now I gotta go see if I own any of your books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Complete sounds great. Sticky thread the bejeezus out of the forums when this is available and I'm good for at least one copy. Thing needs a nickname though. I nominate "Rhino." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Not anymore. Out of the 6E core only the second one is still in stock. They have some 6E supplements. Beyond that their main distributor has all the 6E books as TOS. This is the supplier they use: http://www.alliance-games.com/ . Click on guests than check under company. All are listed as temporarily out of stock. I'm not saying you can't get the books. It's just damn really hard. Beyond Valet not many others carry as many 6E books in stock. Darn, it sucks. Le Valet's site shows all the book as available even 6E1 (which I know isn't) so I guess it's not upto date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Now I gotta go see if I own any of your books. Off the top of my head, Scott wrote (or Co-wrote): Champions Of The North Day Of The Destroyer Gestalt: The Hero Within Villainy Amok VIPER VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent And articles/characters from Adventurers Club starting with some of the earliest issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete [ATTACH=CONFIG]44090[/ATTACH] now that wasn't so hard was it Not sure what anyone else was looking for, but I was looking for the back cover, which would hopefully indicate that Hero core rules are required to use the book. However, Derek covered that off. My memory was off, as Derek tells me the book doesn't say you need other materials for the game to be playable. I could have sworn there was something on the back cover, but perhaps less clear than I am recalling. Fantasy Hero 6e is the same. It's really too bad. It should have been spelled out on the back cover that one needed either Hero Basic or 6e1 and 6e2 to play. It's almost a bait and switch. Where the customer thinks they are buying a complete rules system, gets it home and then finds that they need another rulebook or two to play. It's not a good way to engender goodwill with potential new players. A prominently displayed indication that the book is not a complete game and requires the Hero System rules should definitely be there. Hopefully, this product will include cover copy that makes it clear it compiles material from the 6e Core Rules and the Champions genre sourcebook, and is a complete game in one volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Complete sounds great. Sticky thread the bejeezus out of the forums when this is available and I'm good for at least one copy. Thing needs a nickname though. I nominate "Rhino." Make it predominantly blue and call it the Little Blue Book (LBB) in honor of the Big Blue Book (BBB). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete The problem with this is that this is not how roleplaying games work. It is how comic books work, with the magical power of writers fiat, but the moment that you insert the twin factors of power level via character points and rolling dice, that becomes extremely unlikely. Like writers in comics be darned. The GM is creating the setting. He can make the setting so that there's no need for finagling that stuff. Insert your controls at the point of origin rather than forcing yourself to figure out why the heck things work that way later. If you, the GM, take a little time before the campaign starts to set up your parameters and stick to them, the game runs itself after a certain point. And this is really what you want, because worldbuilding should be about characters, and not about tailoring encounter situations to the needs of the PCs. That means that as a GM, you have failed. You don't want to create a world where the obvious metatext is that the heroes are always going to win, even if nine times out of ten, that is going to be the case. [sNIP] Maybe it's an east coast thing. But I tailored my world to prevent stuff like this from happening. Wars of escalation between player characters are what break games into tiny little flinders. So I regulate the power of the game very closely in order to keep fun and story high, and disputes between characters at the level of characters. A limited range has always been better, and keeps things entertaining. No one feels like they're on the low end of the curve. Few are ever on the high end. But the game WORKS, and has worked for a long time. You can build a setting where this is the rule rather than the exception. It does function. It may not be to everyone's taste, but not every game is for everyone. Agreed, and it sounds like you have a setup where you and your players are satisfied. More power to you. But I don't think it's exactly fair to say "this is not how roleplaying games work." I concur that these are common assumptions about RPGs, particularly our own HERO System with its emphasis on Character Points, and the superhero genre with its disparity of power levels within the source material. However, it's certainly possible to approach the RPG experience differently. For example, our board colleague Theron Bretz described his own game group's significantly different approach to the issue in Digital Hero #3, stressing elements which bring the game even more in line with superhero genre conventions, while still staying fully within the HERO System. Here's a large free sample from his article: Pointless Champions. (It's an archived webpage, so you may need to click on the "Impatient?" link at the bottom.) (This is probably becoming too much a departure from the topic of this thread. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, so I'll just shut up about this now.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Thing needs a nickname though. I nominate "Rhino." I second this! Rhino would be an awesome name! Master-class villains (such as Firewing, Dr. Destroyer, etc.), should have -8 DEF for light campaigns (40 active point attacks), +8 DEF for medium-heavy campaigns (60 active point attacks), +15 DEF for heavy campaigns (70 active point attacks), and +25 DEF (or +15 DEF and 1/2 Damage Reduction) for super-heavy campaigns (80 active point campaigns). Their OCV and DCV should, except where inappropriate to the concept, never be lower than the highest base OCV and DCV of the team, and never higher than two above the highest base OCV and DCV, unless one character has a OCV or DCV well above the rest of his team. For every member of the team above 4, add +20 STUN to the villain's base STUN, except when inappropriate to their concept. Ladies and gentleman, the awesomeness that is Scott Bennie! Could someone rep him for me? Please? There is no Seeker. All of the Champions of that era were trapped on a forcefield encased Island Trap designed by Dr. Destroyer. Everyone in turn was hunted down and eaten by Jaguar' date=' who died of Food poisoning later from eating Seeker.[/quote'] Maybe in YOUR campaign, Rex. Many of them are still kicking and have been redesigned in a multitude of ways in my past campaign. But then, if I use a company's character, I tend to treat them like a Lego set and rebuild them from the ground up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnTaber Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I was honored to be part of the review team that Derek assembled to bounce off ideas. I really enjoyed the sections that I reviewed. Couple things I noticed about the review process and the sections we were given to review... + Derek impressed me with how much he valued clarity. In a couple of cases we went through a given section several times before he was happy. + Derek really listened to the review teams crazy ideas even if he did not agree with them. + The text is light at the right times and heavy when it needs to be. It has a great flow and distinct lack of detail overload. Hard to explain..."elegant crunch". I honestly think folks are going to LOVE Champions Complete. Can't wait to order it and play it with my gang! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Make it predominantly blue and call it the Little Blue Book (LBB) in honor of the Big Blue Book (BBB). Nah, Edge it in Silver and Blue, the we can call it Son of Big Blue Book. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Not this nickname crap again. Call the Champions Complete and then anyone you're communicating with will understand. Otherwise, it's like some kind of inside joke that will just make people who aren't in on it annoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete While I don't necessarily feel as strongly about it as Rod does, I basically agree: the best name for it is its name. If you want something shorter, call it "Champions." Same number of syllables as "Rhino." And honestly, while the idea of nicknaming it "Rhino" is personally flattering, it's not too descriptive of the book. After all, part of the goal is for the rules to get smaller, and I don't think anyone equates rhinos with smallness. Plus, some people would inevitably start acronyming it, which could get all sorts of weird... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Not this nickname crap again. Call the Champions Complete and then anyone you're communicating with will understand. Otherwise' date=' it's like some kind of inside joke that will just make people who aren't in on it annoyed.[/quote'] But I liked Fred. Either way, the in-joke probably did confuse a few people. I know when I first saw it, I remember thinking, "Who the heck is FRed?" Will CC suffice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Rod, the nicknames are, IME, used pretty much exclusively in the Hero community where everyone knows what they mean. No one is going to go into a game shop and ask for Fred or the Big Blue Book or whatever. Also, no one is going to type out "Champions Complete" every time they refer to this book for the rest of their lives (just like no one, I'm pretty sure not even you, types out Hero System Sixth Edition Book One: Character Creation). It will acquire some sort of "nickname", even if it is only the abbreviation of CC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Will CC suffice? I think that's a great online abbreviation, though when spoken out loud, probably easiest to just use the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Rod' date=' the nicknames are, IME, used pretty much exclusively in the Hero community where everyone knows what they mean. No one is going to go into a game shop and ask for Fred or the Big Blue Book or whatever. Also, no one is going to type out "Champions Complete" every time they refer to this book for the rest of their lives (just like no one, I'm pretty sure not even you, types out Hero System Sixth Edition Book One: Character Creation). It [i']will[/i] acquire some sort of "nickname", even if it is only the abbreviation of CC. c2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Rod' date=' the nicknames are, IME, used pretty much exclusively in the Hero community where everyone knows what they mean. No one is going to go into a game shop and ask for Fred or the Big Blue Book or whatever.[/quote'] No, but fellow Hero players chatting in a game shop might use the word "Fred," and other gamers in earshot won't know what they're talking about. I think Rod does have a valid point about it possibly contributing to a sort of inside-joke cliquishness that I'm not sure is conducive to encouraging new players. An abbreviation in writing is one thing; a "codename" by which only "insiders" know the book is kind of another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memorax300 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I never refered to it as Fred. I don't know refereing to a rpg with the name of a poerson always weirded my out. I always used Hero to refer to the system in general. Almost everyone knew what I meant. I have been using CC since I posted in this thread. It's just easier and less time consuming. Plus at worst you sound like your saying yes yes in italian lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete No, but fellow Hero players chatting in a game shop might use the word "Fred," and other gamers in earshot won't know what they're talking about. I think Rod does have a valid point about it possibly contributing to a sort of inside-joke cliquishness that I'm not sure is conducive to encouraging new players. An abbreviation in writing is one thing; a "codename" by which only "insiders" know the book is kind of another. Actually, this might be a neat bit of viral marketing. A bunch of gamers are standing in a store talking about "Krissie"*, someone in the store want to know what they're talking about, the gamers tell them their referring to Cthulu Hero (or whatever). Next thing you know you have a sale. Either that or someone who'll tell everyone about the weirdos giving their pulp horror game cute names. I never refered to it as Fred. I don't know refereing to a rpg with the name of a poerson always weirded my out. I always used Hero to refer to the system in general. Almost everyone knew what I meant. I have been using CC since I posted in this thread. It's just easier and less time consuming. Plus at worst you sound like your saying yes yes in italian lol. I thought "si" was spanish. Ah well. My Japanese is (barely) better. *That was the name of my first pet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Well, "Cici" or "Cece" (pronounced "See-see") is a real person's name, so pronouncing "CC" that way out loud is perfectly legitimate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete No love for Cee Squared? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete No love for Cee Squared? No. Just for you. Seriously, how the heck do you do superscript on the boards. Cee Squared is not a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete No. Just for you. Seriously, how the heck do you do superscript on the boards. Cee Squared is not a bad idea. Well, it shows if you do "Reply With Quote," but c{sup}2{/sup}, replace {} with []. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete CC might confuse the computer gaming folks, who would wonder why Crowd Control is such a hot topic. =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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