[New Product] Champions Complete

[RexMundi]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

PDF's are Cheap but PDF's suck. Go Book or Bust. PDF's are nice as an add on or a tag-along, but until they come up with a Book Sized PDF Reader that doesn't cost Paychecks, they won't replace books, and I'll stick with Paper regardless for reasons threads long about PDF's.

 

CC is a Pretty darn good deal considering what it contains and what it replaces even with the reservations I have about it. Hence, Buying a Pile of them. Out of that Pile MAY be one PDF, just because. Not sure who I would give it to though. Out of the Hundreds of Gamers on my mailing list from the Demo Team files, No one wants "Just the PDF", and more then a Hundred would be willing to pick up Champions for the first time if it goes back to being One Book.

 

~Rex...and no, I'm not buying something Twice by getting the PDF then printing it myself. I've got Functional Game Books that date from the Late 70's. I don't think there is ANY comparable "pdf" type yet for that kind of thing, especially with the electronic media's habit of just going, Meh, we don't need to read that old program anymore, and I'm still trying to figure out how They are Cheaper when the best thing for reading them comes in at a bargain price of 600 bucks. That's a Whole LINE of Books and then some Third Party Material on top of that.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Give me the HARD COPY baby!

 

Evey time.

 

QM

[kahuna's bro]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Give me the HARD COPY baby!

 

Evey time.

 

QM

yes

[dmjalund]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Give me the HARD COPY baby!

 

Evey time.

 

QM

wasn' that an Adult rated version of TMZ?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Will any material from the Advanced Player's Guides being in CC?

[GestaltBennie]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I'll take the PDF, thank you, but glad the choice and support for FLGSs is available.

[Balabanto]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

wasn' that an Adult rated version of TMZ?

 

Champions Complete: The Nude Millennium

[scorpionx1]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

well i thought about this more and was originally a 'naysayer' so to speak, but now i realize the potential. I have come around to the 1 book idea, i see the reasoning for it now, however 240 pages seems short for HERO. I had never read M&M before but i picked up a copy and i was surprised at the quality. it has come along way from d20 and is barely recognizable from normal d20 stuff now. hells bells, looks like they stole some HERO concepts too... just look at the powers and points system. in my mind M&M is what HERO is competing against; they need to get some of that market share back.

 

so how do we do that? GREAT art and in-color, not B&W art. I understand it is cost prohibitive but this is a mistake as the competition has good art and in color. And the cover should be very superheroey! and hardcover would be preferable but not a deal killer as long as color and art were good.

 

if all this happens then the differentiator becomes the support books. M&M 3e is still new and doesn't have much support yet. They also seem to be stymied into supporting DC Adventures RPG so support will come slow. CC on the other hand will be compatible with 6E and even 5E will little to no conversion necessary. So HERO gets the win, but only if the book is color and arty!

 

So i really implore DOJ to look at a color book and getting quality art in there! C'mon, you guys can do it!!!!! please don't half-ass this up!!!

 

p.s. if these suggestions were incorporated, i would support a kickstarter!

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

PDF's are Cheap but PDF's suck. Go Book or Bust. PDF's are nice as an add on or a tag-along, but until they come up with a Book Sized PDF Reader that doesn't cost Paychecks, they won't replace books, and I'll stick with Paper regardless for reasons threads long about PDF's.

 

CC is a Pretty darn good deal considering what it contains and what it replaces even with the reservations I have about it. Hence, Buying a Pile of them. Out of that Pile MAY be one PDF, just because.

 

But you won't have to make that choice since the book comes with a free PDF right?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

well i thought about this more and was originally a 'naysayer' so to speak, but now i realize the potential. I have come around to the 1 book idea, i see the reasoning for it now, however 240 pages seems short for HERO. I had never read M&M before but i picked up a copy and i was surprised at the quality. it has come along way from d20 and is barely recognizable from normal d20 stuff now. hells bells, looks like they stole some HERO concepts too... just look at the powers and points system. in my mind M&M is what HERO is competing against; they need to get some of that market share back.

 

so how do we do that? GREAT art and in-color, not B&W art. I understand it is cost prohibitive but this is a mistake as the competition has good art and in color. And the cover should be very superheroey! and hardcover would be preferable but not a deal killer as long as color and art were good.

 

If, in fact, it is cost-prohibitie, it would be a mistake. It seems your argument is more that it is expensive, but not prohibitive, absolutely beneficial and perhaps even essential.

 

I think the cover of a book of this nature should be evocative of the genre, and given the state of CU IP rights, probably has Cryptic input.

 

if all this happens then the differentiator becomes the support books. M&M 3e is still new and doesn't have much support yet. They also seem to be stymied into supporting DC Adventures RPG so support will come slow. CC on the other hand will be compatible with 6E and even 5E will little to no conversion necessary. So HERO gets the win' date=' but only if the book is color and arty![/quote']

 

Why do you suppose M&M doesn't have much in the way of support? One reason, IMO, is that hardcover books with full colour glossy art is expensive to produce, so they can only produce in limited quantities, and will only produce books with a high likelihood of generating the sales required to support that significant extra cost.

 

I think Hero prudently assesses their business strategies based on actual costs, realistic sales models based on past experience and available marketing data and other business realities. Call me crazy, but I think they're in a better position to formulate their business plan that a bunch of internet posters (self included) are.

 

Just for the record, Derek, since the question seems to arise in various forms repeatedly, is it fair to say that:

 

"Champions Complete is a more concise version of Hero 6e Vol 1 and 2 and Champions. The intent is to remove none of the actual rules, but much of the examples, detail and extra verbiage. No material from any other book is planned for inclusion, and the material will be fully compatible with all 6e products, and just as compatible with all 5e and earlier products as the original 6e was"

 

If so, all you need to do is find a way to link every post on the newsgroup to a formal statement in that regard

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

p.s. if these suggestions were incorporated' date=' i would support a kickstarter![/quote']

 

I mention marketing info above. It seems everyone always says they would support a kickstarter if this or that were done. For that info to be even remotely useful, the dollar value of support would be needed. If business reality says the book would have to sell 3,000 copies at $50 to break even, then knowing whether you would support with $25 provided it includes shipping to the Middle East, or with $60 plus shipping & handling consistent with the BoE and CV III rates, should lead to very different business conclusions.

[John T]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Want! Where? When? How?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Just for the record, Derek, since the question seems to arise in various forms repeatedly, is it fair to say that:

 

"Champions Complete is a more concise version of Hero 6e Vol 1 and 2 and Champions. The intent is to remove none of the actual rules, but much of the examples, detail and extra verbiage. No material from any other book is planned for inclusion, and the material will be fully compatible with all 6e products, and just as compatible with all 5e and earlier products as the original 6e was"

 

Yes, this is all correct, with the exception of Classes of Minds, the Absolute Effect Rule, and the categorized aspect of Animal Handler, Forgery, Gambling, Navigation, Survival, and Weaponsmith. Those could be described as actual rules being removed. However, I would certainly argue that none of those exclusions would hinder its compatibility with 6E or 5E products in any substantial way.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Will any material from the Advanced Player's Guides being in CC?

 

No; I only pulled in one item from any book other than 6E1, 6E2, or Champions, and it wasn't from APG I or II. Maybe I'll leave it as an Easter egg for people to find...

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Umm... except that if you include Champions' date=' then CC is an even better deal. Because then it replaces two $40 books and a $45 book. [/quote']

 

For a newcomer to the system yes. Fr someone like me who owns both the 6E core and 6E chmapions not so much. It ends up being a 160$ purchase with CC. CC is a good step in the right direction. Not sure though if it will get enough of the fanbase who are happy enough with 5E and the original 6E core. We gamers are notorioulsy cheap when it comes to spending. I want to proved wrong as HG needs a shot in the arm. I do agree with scoprion though about support. Not a book a month yet if your going to relaunch the HS with CC you have to provide some support for Champs. No question. MM can get away from that because imo it's more popular and less complicated than the HS. To me anyway with the popularity of superhero movies and comics on the rise, a mmo using the Champs IP and being one of the more recognizable IPs in rpgs just seems a mistake not to support Champs while not agressively at least with a book every 3 moths or so. Why do you thin that even though I prefer MM for less complex rules I stick with Champs for the expanded background information. No other rpg company has detailed villain organization books like Champs. Or as much detailed superhero backgrounds. I'm not saying convert every 5E Champs book to 6E. Far from it. If your not going to provide some sort of expanded support for CC then I say don't waste your time. Givr me a reason to not stick with my 5E books.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

For a newcomer to the system yes. Fr someone like me who owns both the 6E core and 6E chmapions not so much. It ends up being a 160$ purchase with CC. CC is a good step in the right direction. Not sure though if it will get enough of the fanbase who are happy enough with 5E and the original 6E core. We gamers are notorioulsy cheap when it comes to spending. I want to proved wrong as HG needs a shot in the arm.

 

Yes, the "economic" benefits of the 3-in-1 approach are for new buyers. If you already own 6E1, 6E2, and Champions, then of course buying a new book is not less expensive than not buying a new book. (Though it's worth noting that if you're missing even one of those books, you could get CC for the same price or less as any one of them.)

 

The appeal for existing owners of all three previous books lies more in ease-of-use. Many players had been asking for a more concise approach to the rules (many existing players; not just newbies). And obviously (for hardcopy users) there are some advantages to only having to carry around one 240 page book instead of three books totaling 1080 pages.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

According to what I've read it seems that it is the full 6E rules' date=' including the rules for heroic campaigns. The 'Heroic' and 'Superheroic' rules tend to be applied more to campaigns than characters. Can you give a better example of what you mean in terms of a heroic character in a superheroic campaign and the rules you would apply to them that don't apply to the superheroes?[/quote']

 

One who comes to mind is Agent Coulson. And the rule for him that comes to mind is that he has access to the SHIELD equipment even if he doesn't understand it. It's not reliable, the technology might or might not work, and he can usually only use most items once. Most of the time he relies on his wits and his standard-issue gear (such as a normal automatic pistol).

[esampson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

But in what way would you be applying a different ruleset to him? Do you roll hit locations when he's attacked? Pretty typically someone like Agent Coulson is an NPC who still follows all the same rules as the superheroic characters. He just has abilities in the normal human range and the equipment he's armed with tends to be either mundane (such as the automatic pistol) or else the special SHIELD equipment he doesn't understand (being an NPC you don't really have to worry about things like whether he has to spend double points on stats exceeding characteristic maximums since he probably doesn't have any and even if he does you as the GM don't have to balance out the NPC)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

For a newcomer to the system yes. Fr someone like me who owns both the 6E core and 6E chmapions not so much. It ends up being a 160$ purchase with CC. CC is a good step in the right direction. Not sure though if it will get enough of the fanbase who are happy enough with 5E and the original 6E core. We gamers are notorioulsy cheap when it comes to spending. I want to proved wrong as HG needs a shot in the arm. I do agree with scoprion though about support. Not a book a month yet if your going to relaunch the HS with CC you have to provide some support for Champs. No question. MM can get away from that because imo it's more popular and less complicated than the HS. To me anyway with the popularity of superhero movies and comics on the rise' date=' a mmo using the Champs IP and being one of the more recognizable IPs in rpgs just seems a mistake not to support Champs while not agressively at least with a book every 3 moths or so. Why do you thin that even though I prefer MM for less complex rules I stick with Champs for the expanded background information. No other rpg company has detailed villain organization books like Champs. Or as much detailed superhero backgrounds. I'm not saying convert every 5E Champs book to 6E. Far from it. If your not going to provide some sort of expanded support for CC then I say don't waste your time. Givr me a reason to not stick with my 5E books.[/quote']Then don't buy it. Durr, that was easy. People have been asking for this type of book since I joined during the 5E era and many of those who have excitedly said they will buy it already own the other books as well. Stop saying "you're doing it wrong" just because the product doesn't appeal to you personally.

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Not sure though if it will get enough of the fanbase who are happy enough with 5E and the original 6E core. We gamers are notorioulsy cheap when it comes to spending.

 

As an aside here I would say "not all of us". Upon reading that HERO Games was downsizing I went to the store and bought for about 250$ as a show of support. Your point is still valid though as it is difficult to say what proportion lies in the "cheap" category and how much in the "take my money" category.

 

Still, doing this book is the best idea in a long time for HERO. People have been clamoring for quite a bit for this (Derek included) and having HG listen is a breath of fresh air. Derek has decided to walk the talk by actually doing the heavy lifting and I hope the supporters will put their money were their mouth are.

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Then don't buy it. Durr' date=' that was easy. People have been asking for this type of book since I joined during the 5E era and many of those who have excitedly said they will buy it already own the other books as well. Stop saying "you're doing it wrong" just because the product doesn't appeal to you personally.[/quote']

 

I get that you disagree with what I am posting but I will say this as politlely as I can knock it off. I'm not saying they are doing it wrong. I'm saying they should be careful and to support Champs more. Not to mention as long as I'm civil and don't break any rules I'm going to post what I like. That is non-negociable or will change. Your not a mod so stop telling peop0le what they can't or cannot post.

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

As an aside here I would say "not all of us". Upon reading that HERO Games was downsizing I went to the store and bought for about 250$ as a show of support. Your point is still valid though as it is difficult to say what proportion lies in the "cheap" category and how much in the "take my money" category.

 

Still, doing this book is the best idea in a long time for HERO. People have been clamoring for quite a bit for this (Derek included) and having HG listen is a breath of fresh air. Derek has decided to walk the talk by actually doing the heavy lifting and I hope the supporters will put their money were their mouth are.

 

As long as Champs gets more support I'm all for the book. My worry is getting CC and then not seeing any more support for champs. Some 5E books should be converted to 6E. Yes one can convert back and forth but you want to push the 6E version of the rules not the 5E version. A more stablizesd release schedule post CC would also be great too. The whole if "book a does well than book B will see the light of day. Then if Book B does well than Book c etc. Kind of hard to get excited about new product when your never sure what will come out. I don't know why some posters think I don't want see a CC. I do but just because I'm not all "CC roxxs on toast" does not mean I'm against the product. I'm also offering some contructive criticism to HG. Last time I checked that was not a crime. Not singling you DD just saying this in general. BEing a fan means posting the good as well as the bad. I'm not changing that for anyone here. No matter how it bothers.

 

If HG can pull it off they could while not go to the top of the list in superhero rpgs make it back on the list. It's only real compitetor is MM and MHR (though I find the rule system annoying at best). None of them so far have as much information in terms of background as much as Champs does. I rememner look at the 2E book for supervillian organizations in M&M (forgot the name) and it imo did not standup to the greatness that is 5E Viper and Demon. Too littlr information. I could easily run a lifetime of adventures with both Demon and Viper alone. It can be done with M&M and MHR yet it requires too much work to fill in the gaps imo. No saying ignore SH or FH. They should get their share of love too. Yet imo HG needs to promote and supprt Champs more imo.

 

It's needs to be repeated again HG needs to get their entire 6E library back in print. The 6E martial arts book is going for 85$ on Amazon. Hopefully with Kickstarters. Nothing shows a company in trouble when every reprint requires a kickstarter. I'm hoping CC is a huge success to get those out of stock books back in print. Barring the 6E core and the Champs book .

[Steve]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Your not a mod so stop telling peop0le what they can't or cannot post.

 

Uhm, aren't you now doing what you don't like him doing?

 

 

To get back on topic, my group will likely be buying at least two of Champions Complete. It sounds like the changes will be fairly minimal.

 

However, since there will be changes, one question that comes to mind will be if there will a new template for Hero Designer that follows the CC ruleset, since it is not exactly 6E?

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Uhm, aren't you now doing what you don't like him doing?

 

I know practice what you preach and all that. Nothing bothers me more when hardcore members of the fanbase attempt to shut you down because "gasp" you may have a major or minor difference in opinion. I ignored it once should have it ingored it again.In any case as long as the guys at HG are okay with what I post don't care if it bothers anyone else as long as I'm breaking no board rules.

 

 

However, since there will be changes, one question that comes to mind will be if there will a new template for Hero Designer that follows the CC ruleset, since it is not exactly 6E?

 

Possibly yet not sure if we will see a new version of HD. Depends on the levels of change in CC.

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I get that you disagree with what I am posting but I will say this as politlely as I can knock it off.

 

I think it's fair to point out in return that 90% or more of the posters are saying the exact opposite of what you are saying. So your apprehensions appear to be greatly misplaced, at least, if not wholly fabricated out of your imagination. People have a right to post, sure. But you also have a right be be criticized, even taken out to the woodshed if you post things that enough folks consider silly. And your mopey doom-and-gloom is really quite silly.