memorax300 Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I am a naysayer about this but a cautcious nayer. I can see the reason for them doing this. Yet I'm not sure if reprinting the same book twice with less material will do the trick. Time will tell and I'm hoping to bne wrong. I would like to see color art in the book yet B&W is gooed enough for me. That being said though the at has to be spectular and no expense spared. If your not going color then it needs to stand out from Mutant and Masterminds and DC Adventures which are both imo visually stunning books. I alos hope that the sales of champions Complete allows them to reprint a bunch of out of print 6E material. Yes we have the Pdfs yet not everyone is a fan of PDF. For something say like Champs Powers it's something that is imo easier to go through in print than pdf. As well as the 6E of CU has to come back into print. A core book referencing Champopns and the background book is no longer in print. Just not a good move imo. I'm also going to assume that if CC is going to be the flagship line that we will see at least some 5E villian organizations books translated to 6E. At least one hopes eventually. Imo it's not a great selling point when you have a newer version of a product and you keep telling people to use an older verison of say the 5E Viper book. No matter how easy it is to convert. Your trying imo to get more sales for 6E. Not more sales for 5E no matter how good the product is. I have both 5E and 6E books and would rather use 6E. Not convert 5E books. I don't have the time or willigness to do so. I might as well stick with 5E then. Still want to remain positive somwhat and CC will get alookthrough at least by me. If you can get them into stores so much the better too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Hi Memorax, I guess we just sopke on the SJGamesforum:) I am a naysayer about this but a cautcious nayer. I can see the reason for them doing this. Yet I'm not sure if reprinting the same book twice with less material will do the trick. Time will tell and I'm hoping to bne wrong. Actually,it's more like they are responding to request frommany fans that HERO should be done in a less wordy/more condensed/less example heavy/trying to cover every cornersand loopholes type of format. What they seem to aim for is a book more in line with Champions 4th (the Big Blue Book) format with all the refinements of HERO6th. I am myself very grateful they listened to the fans. 6E1 and 2 will still be available in PDF as "reference books". I would like to see color art in the book yet B&W is gooed enough for me. That being said though the at has to be spectular and no expense spared. If your not going color then it needs to stand out from Mutant and Masterminds and DC Adventures which are both imo visually stunning books. I agree with you that to stand up there against the competition, a color book would be better but it won't happen because it seems uneconomical. I alos hope that the sales of champions Complete allows them to reprint a bunch of out of print 6E material. Yes we have the Pdfs yet not everyone is a fan of PDF. For something say like Champs Powers it's something that is imo easier to go through in print than pdf. As well as the 6E of CU has to come back into print. A core book referencing Champopns and the background book is no longer in print. Just not a good move imo. I'm also going to assume that if CC is going to be the flagship line that we will see at least some 5E villian organizations books translated to 6E. At least one hopes eventually. Imo it's not a great selling point when you have a newer version of a product and you keep telling people to use an older verison of say the 5E Viper book. No matter how easy it is to convert. Your trying imo to get more sales for 6E. Not more sales for 5E no matter how good the product is. I have both 5E and 6E books and would rather use 6E. Not convert 5E books. I don't have the time or willigness to do so. I might as well stick with 5E then. Still want to remain positive somwhat and CC will get alookthrough at least by me. If you can get them into stores so much the better too. Looking at the online store Champions Powers, Champions Universe, Champions Villains 1, 2 and 3 (actually 3 is getting printed now) and Book of the Empress seems to be all in print. Only Champions is missing. I agree it would be nice to see Viper, Argent and UNTIL though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esampson Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Okay' date=' so for a new player, what would be the best starting setup for gaming in the Champions universe? I'm assuming Champions Complete, of course, and Champions Universe and whatever else? What do you recommend?[/quote'] Do you mean a new player with an experienced GM (introducing a new player) or do you mean pretty much everyone playing will be new to the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder92 Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Really looking forward to the product. Will there be an extensive combat example, similar to that found on pp 430-432 of 5ER? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Really looking forward to the product. Will there be an extensive combat example' date=' similar to that found on pp 430-432 of 5ER?[/quote'] Not in the book, but a detailed combat example will be made available as a free download. There will be several things like that... useful tidbits that there's not quite room for in the book, but that will be offered as online freebies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder92 Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete That's great. It's one of the the things that I think is beneficial for new players to gain a grasp of the game. Any possibility of demo copies being at GenCon? Thanks for your work and best of luck with the release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memorax300 Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Hi Memorax, I guess we just sopke on the SJGamesforum:) So we did lol. I'm torn between which generic system I should go with Gurps or HS. I like both yet at the time cannot afford both. Actually,it's more like they are responding to request frommany fans that HERO should be done in a less wordy/more condensed/less example heavy/trying to cover every cornersand loopholes type of format. What they seem to aim for is a book more in line with Champions 4th (the Big Blue Book) format with all the refinements of HERO6th. I am myself very grateful they listened to the fans. 6E1 and 2 will still be available in PDF as "reference books". I'm not against it. I'm just not sure a large enough chunk of the HS fanbase will pony up to buy a 6E version of Champs again. Even slimmer and with possible refinements. One thing is for sure it needs to remain in print at all times or hG needs to print enough so that it allows anyone interested 6 months to a year to buy. A short print run is imo not going to make them any friends with the fanbase. Pdf is nice but not a choice for everyone. Nor is a lack of funds a good reason at this point either. If it's part of a new intiative to get HG on the map again they need to have a decent amount of cash in the bank imo. Starting something like this and not having a good cashflow will not end well. I am trying to get some of my gaming group into the HS yet very hard. A lack of core books in print as well as the other 6E books being TOS (temporaily out of stock) with distrbutors does not help. We are nto anti-PDf yet we prefer print as a whole. If my gaming group can't get the majority of the books in print they are for the most part uninterested. Not to mention HG does not want to be the company a second time to find itself in a position ot not have the core in print. Once is acceptable twice they might as well sel the company to someone with money. I don't mena to be harsh yet having worked with consumers for the last 10 years I can say the avergae consumer is not very forgiving. Espcially not to a company that makes the same mistakes the second time. For whatever reason. I wish them well with CC yet they need to be careful as well. I agree with you that to stand up there against the competition, a color book would be better but it won't happen because it seems uneconomical. As long as the B&W art is top notch I don't think too many of the fanbase will mind. Yet it has to really stand out and be eye catching. Anything less is imo a waste of time as imo rpgs are a very visual product. Superheroes rpgs because they are based on comics even more so imo. Looking at the online store Champions Powers, Champions Universe, Champions Villains 1, 2 and 3 (actually 3 is getting printed now) and Book of the Empress seems to be all in print. Only Champions is missing. I agree it would be nice to see Viper, Argent and UNTIL though. With the populairy of superhero movies on the rise and with an increased number of movies coming out they need to imo release more 6E support for Champions. Converting over from 5E is all well and good yet if I'm buying 6E chamos I want to use a 6E product not a 5E product. Not just focus on the superhero side of things of course. Yet it should defintely nbe more of a focus than Star or Fantasy Hero imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Redfield Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Don't Champions Beyond and Book of the Empress help scratch that itch? Or do you mean "cosmic" as over the top powerful? After these two books I'd say Champions Powers if you want tons of predefine powers (may speed up character creation quite a bit) and the Villains book if you want and extensive rogue gallery to draw from. The third tier mostly depends on what you want the game to focus on. Book of the Empress, Book of the Machine and Book of the Destroyer (the last two published under 5th but setting wise it's up to date) for even more depth on master villains and Beyond for supers in space. On top of it there is a lot of useful books published under 5th (including Galactic Champions) that are mostly 90-95% useable. Cosmic both as in strange space-based stuff as well as power level. Thanks for the recommendations, people! Do you mean a new player with an experienced GM (introducing a new player) or do you mean pretty much everyone playing will be new to the game? Everyone involved will be experienced roleplayers, and I am an experienced GM, but most of us are pretty new to the HERO system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Cosmic both as in strange space-based stuff as well as power level. Everyone involved will be experienced roleplayers, and I am an experienced GM, but most of us are pretty new to the HERO system. I think that perhaps the best would be to get the new Champs Complete and one other book if it seems to fit well. Then start a thread in the Champions forum and ask for help. I'm focusing on the "we're all new to Hero" part and going cosmic as your first game might be a fair amount of work. Also "strange space" stuff doesn't immediately bring anything to mind, but Hero System excels at tool-kiting, so making new material shouldn't be a problem. I also think we are getting a bit off topic from Champions Complete announcement. Time for a new thread about Claire's Cosmic and Strange Champions Campaign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Redfield Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Oh, I'm going to start with an Earth-based Champions game. Cosmic can come later. I'm the biggest cosmic fan of my friends, anyway. Most of them just don't like it as much. So, Champions! I'll need Champions Complete, Champions Universe and some of those other good resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptPatriot Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I'm sure you'll have fun with that, Claire. I, on the other hand, had my sister-in-law's son whom I introduced to Champions a couple of years ago and look forward to sending him a copy. With any luck, he'll either make use of it to get out of his social shell and find others to play with or it'll be the catalyst to show him that i feel he's too isolated and resist being an RPG geek like me and try break out on his own, go out, do things with people. Either way, it'll do what I want for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Animal Handler' date=' Forgery, Gambling, Navigation, Survival and Weaponsmith are presented as normal 3-point Skills instead of broken into categories. The [b']concept[/b] of breaking Skills down into categories if you want more detail is in the book, but none of the Skills are presented that way by default. I actually suggested something similar to this for 6e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Oh, I'm going to start with an Earth-based Champions game. Cosmic can come later. I'm the biggest cosmic fan of my friends, anyway. Most of them just don't like it as much. So, Champions! I'll need Champions Complete, Champions Universe and some of those other good resources. How much you'll need depends on how much of the heavy lifting you'll be doing. Champions Universe provides a rich setting with a lot of suggestions on running good campaigns. But some of its assumptions might not match what you want (for example, you might prefer Detroit the way it is). The villain books can help you come up with ideas and be a great source of material -- there are so many canon villains in the Champions Universe that they're split into three volumes. One tool you might want to pick up as you develop your campaign is the Hero Designer software. That program and the modules that go with it are an enormous help with a Champions campaign. For example, you can take a villain that has a power concept you like, port it into a new file (which is as simple as saving it in another location or under another name) and then do all the fiddling you want to create something of your own. You can add or take away powers, alter, add or remove Complications, adjust skills, change Characteristics around, alter an existing power's level and add new Advantages and Limitations, and change the name and background to match what you would like to see. You can even take a villain build and transform it into a hero and vice versa. It's you campaign. You have a lot of options. If you didn't quite understand the jargon in that post, it's all right -- everything will be clear once you're exposed to the Hero System. You might want to look at these forums, particularly the Champions section -- there will be lots of threads devoted to character writeups (or that include them) which will show the flexibility of the Hero System in action -- and you can always ask the authors of the writeups just what is involved in making these characters. This is a great community for messing around with and experimenting with Champions characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I haven't used Millennium City yet, as a locale. If/when it comes into being, several people have commented that they would like to be involved in the battle that destroys such an urban center as Detroit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I haven't used Millennium City yet' date=' as a locale. If/when it comes into being, several people have commented that they would like to be involved in the battle that destroys such an urban center as Detroit.[/quote'] Each GM is in some way building their own Champions Universe, with its own continuity, virtually by default, and there's nothing wrong with consciously changing the setting. While in most superhero worlds that are published New York City or an analogue tends to be the place to be if you're a superhero, Los Angeles or Chicago might be another candidate for "most important city in your campaign". There's something to be said for using the region with which the GM and players are most familiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I'm not against it. I'm just not sure a large enough chunk of the HS fanbase will pony up to buy a 6E version of Champs again. Even slimmer and with possible refinements. One thing is for sure it needs to remain in print at all times or hG needs to print enough so that it allows anyone interested 6 months to a year to buy. A short print run is imo not going to make them any friends with the fanbase. Pdf is nice but not a choice for everyone. Nor is a lack of funds a good reason at this point either. If it's part of a new intiative to get HG on the map again they need to have a decent amount of cash in the bank imo. Starting something like this and not having a good cashflow will not end well. I am trying to get some of my gaming group into the HS yet very hard. A lack of core books in print as well as the other 6E books being TOS (temporaily out of stock) with distrbutors does not help. We are nto anti-PDf yet we prefer print as a whole. If my gaming group can't get the majority of the books in print they are for the most part uninterested. Not to mention HG does not want to be the company a second time to find itself in a position ot not have the core in print. Once is acceptable twice they might as well sel the company to someone with money. I don't mena to be harsh yet having worked with consumers for the last 10 years I can say the avergae consumer is not very forgiving. Espcially not to a company that makes the same mistakes the second time. For whatever reason. I wish them well with CC yet they need to be careful as well. As long as the B&W art is top notch I don't think too many of the fanbase will mind. Yet it has to really stand out and be eye catching. Anything less is imo a waste of time as imo rpgs are a very visual product. Superheroes rpgs because they are based on comics even more so imo. I think that the fanbase will surprise you. esp with an inexpensive book like CC. I'll bet that sales will be brisk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I don't know exactly what a "Power Profile" is' date=' but a rogues gallery of builds for say $3 to $5 would get my attention. Obviously, wait to see how the new product does, etc., but just thinking out loud, that would be something I'd probably personally consider "bang for the buck."[/quote'] A "Power Profile" is akin to the power builds in Champions Powers, only each PDF is smaller and usually focuses around a specific SFX (Weather Powers, Acid Powers, etc.). I do agree with small Villain PDFs like the old Champions modules/enemies books that were less pages than the Hero monster books of these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Redfield Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Hm. This book will have the full 6E rules, right? So does that include the rules for Heroic characters, which despite the delineation between them and Superheroic, can and do show up in superheroic stories? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memorax300 Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete I think that the fanbase will surprise you. esp with an inexpensive book like CC. I'll bet that sales will be brisk. It all depends on what version. PDF is inexpensive. Print is as expensive as the current 6E version of Champions. So CC has to be spectacular imo to get some of the fanbase to buy CC. I want to be proven wrong yet having worked with the average consumer face to to face for 10 years. They are a fickle bunch. As for the art cannot disagree more. The art has to be eye catching and evocative of the setting. If they are going to skimp on the art don't bother imo. I'm not asking for the best art I do expect CC to have some great art. Nothing less will do imo. I do hope we also see 6E versions of the villians organizations as well as an expanded Millenium City. CU while a good product is focused on the overall universe. A city sourcebook is a must imo. It's one of the few things that imo HG does better than SJG in terms of each others supers rpgs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esampson Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Hm. This book will have the full 6E rules' date=' right? So does that include the rules for Heroic characters, which despite the delineation between them and Superheroic, can and do show up in superheroic stories?[/quote'] According to what I've read it seems that it is the full 6E rules, including the rules for heroic campaigns. The 'Heroic' and 'Superheroic' rules tend to be applied more to campaigns than characters. Can you give a better example of what you mean in terms of a heroic character in a superheroic campaign and the rules you would apply to them that don't apply to the superheroes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Hm. This book will have the full 6E rules' date=' right? So does that include the rules for Heroic characters, which despite the delineation between them and Superheroic, can and do show up in superheroic stories?[/quote'] Derek already answered this: Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Redfield Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Gah! I am behind the times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete It all depends on what version. PDF is inexpensive. Print is as expensive as the current 6E core. So CC has to be spectacular imo to get some of the fanbase to buy CC. I want to be proven wrong yet having worked with the average consumer face to to face for 10 years. They are a fickle bunch. As for the art cannot disagree more. The art has to be eye catching and evocative of the setting. If they are going to skimp on the art don't bother imo. I'm not asking for the best art I do expect CC to have some great art. Nothing less will do imo.I do hope we also see 6E versions of the villians organizations as well as an expanded Millenium City. CU while a good product is focused on the overall universe. A city sourcebook is a must imo. It's one of the few things that imo HG does better than SJG in terms of each others supers rpgs.What are you talking about? How is 1 $40 book the same price as "the current 6E core" when the current books are 2 $40 books? That's half the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memorax300 Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete What are you talking about? How is 1 $40 book the same price as "the current 6E core" when the current books are 2 $40 books? That's half the price. Sorry I meant to say the print version of CC is as expensive as the 6E version of Champs. So price wise those who want print are not saving much if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Re: [New Product] Champions Complete Sorry I meant to say the print version of CC is as expensive as the 6E version of Champs. So price wise those who want print are not saving much if anything. Umm... except that if you include Champions, then CC is an even better deal. Because then it replaces two $40 books and a $45 book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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