Speak with the dead

[MisterVimes]

As predicted, the GAC/Pulp players (despite protestations to the contrary) are building supers. That's fine, that's what I wanted. One wants to do a Psychic Detective and the only power that he's suggested is the ability t speak with the dead. Now, this is a really cool power for a Homicide Detective and it is very Pulp/GAC.

 

This can easily be achieved by using Clairsentience: Retrocognition with some limitations (requires a dead body, can only know what the person saw when alive, etc). On the other hand, the Grimoire has a version than involves summoning the ghost of the stiff.

 

How would YOU handle it?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Clairsentience was my first idea.

The summon gives more RP potential, the player wouldn't necessarily get as frustrated with a summoned ghost giving him grief as he would his Clairsentience not operating the way he wanted.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

I would go the Clairsentience route, myself.

 

If you have an established 'realm of the dead' dimension, though. Transdimensional Mind Scan + Telepathy might work as well.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

I'm trying to keep it Pulp/GAC level until they get closer to WWII (we're starting in 1925), so, "The Realm of the Dead" would work well later. Chad makes a good point, but with 275 total starting points (including complications) I'm angling for lower points.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Not to push for this method necessarily, but just to point it out...

 

He could also buy general abilities with a Special Effect of speaking to the dead. That might make his capabilities a little easier to quantify. For instance, dead victims could tell him facts about the murder (Deduction and/or Criminology), a dead criminal could tell him where to find the mob boss he owed money to (Streetwise), long-dead people could tell him about events of their time (KS: History), and so on.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Not to push for this method necessarily, but just to point it out...

 

He could also buy general abilities with a Special Effect of speaking to the dead. That might make his capabilities a little easier to quantify. For instance, dead victims could tell him facts about the murder (Deduction and/or Criminology), a dead criminal could tell him where to find the mob boss he owed money to (Streetwise), long-dead people could tell him about events of their time (KS: History), and so on.

 

Actually, if he starts expanding the uses, that's exactly the way I planned to go. See what he wants to ask them beyond his initial "who killed you?" line of thinking.

[Lucius]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Perhaps one, some, or all of these

 

Speak with Dead: (Total: 71 Active Cost, 30 Real Cost)

+4 Overall (48 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Limited Power Only for situations when advice from beyond the grave is useful (Some obvious uses: Deduction, Criminology, or Forensic Medicine to solve a murder; Concealment to find something a dead person had hidden; -1) (Real Cost: 12)

plus

Contact: The Dead, Organization Contact (x3) (6 Active Points) 11- (Real Cost: 6)

plus

Luck 3d6 (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only to simulate help and advice of the dead (Example: A ghost whispers "duck" just as someone shoots from ambush.; -1/2) (Real Cost: 10)

plus

KS: Stuff dead people say 11- (Real Cost: 2)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Speak with Palindromedary

[gojira]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

I was going to suggest a contact also, probably with a lot of adders because it's a super large organization available almost anywhere (i.e., dead people).

 

Imagine a person is killed by a sniper from far away. He doesn't know who his killer is. Clairsentience doesn't model this well. A contact does, because contacts can't tell you things they themselves don't know. The contact could also suggest other lines of investigation. "I have a will; it's in the roll-top desk." Etc.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

I was going to suggest a contact also, probably with a lot of adders because it's a super large organization available almost anywhere (i.e., dead people).

 

Imagine a person is killed by a sniper from far away. He doesn't know who his killer is. Clairsentience doesn't model this well. A contact does, because contacts can't tell you things they themselves don't know. The contact could also suggest other lines of investigation. "I have a will; it's in the roll-top desk." Etc.

 

Why not? You just take a limitation on the Clairsentience to account for that.

[phoenix240]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Why not? You just take a limitation on the Clairsentience to account for that.

 

Yeah, if the Retrocognition only reveals what the Dead person could possibly know and they literally "Don't know what hit them" it can't reveal that. A smaller version of vague Limitation might also be applicable as the information provided might be subject to all sorts of bias and other issue that comes dealing with someone telling you something instead of just "watching" a replay.

[Lucius]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Any way you slice it, there is one serious drawback; unless you somehow limit it heavily, most murders will be no mystery.

 

One good way to limit it is to point out that if the character knows too much about a murder, HE becomes the prime suspect! "Yeah, right, the victim told you. Let's go down to the station, you, me, and whatever ghosts you want to invite along...."

 

The challenge may be finding the evidence that police and courts would accept.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No palindromedary's testimony has ever been accepted in an American court

[Zen Archer]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Any way you slice it, there is one serious drawback; unless you somehow limit it heavily, most murders will be no mystery.

 

Fair point. The killer could just be a servant of someone bigger, though, and finding out who ordered the hit could require some detective work.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Summon: Ghosts of the Deceased, Slavishly Loyal, Only Visible to Summoner, No Combat Ability, Information Only, and Only What the Ghost knew in Life.

 

I do not know how to work it out in HERO Mechanics, but is that what your looking for?

 

QM

[Christopher]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

As predicted, the GAC/Pulp players (despite protestations to the contrary) are building supers. That's fine, that's what I wanted. One wants to do a Psychic Detective and the only power that he's suggested is the ability t speak with the dead. Now, this is a really cool power for a Homicide Detective and it is very Pulp/GAC.

 

This can easily be achieved by using Clairsentience: Retrocognition with some limitations (requires a dead body, can only know what the person saw when alive, etc). On the other hand, the Grimoire has a version than involves summoning the ghost of the stiff.

 

How would YOU handle it?

I would go with clairsentience personally.

Summon is to get a extra sheet that supports you in combat or non-comabt tasks. Information aquisition is not really a good way to use it.

 

He could also buy general abilities with a Special Effect of speaking to the dead. That might make his capabilities a little easier to quantify. For instance' date=' dead victims could tell him facts about the murder (Deduction and/or Criminology), a dead criminal could tell him where to find the mob boss he owed money to (Streetwise), long-dead people could tell him about events of their time (KS: History), and so on. [/quote']

Another good idea.

Only problem is getting the informations of the victim. Some sort of really high KS perhaps?

 

Imagine a person is killed by a sniper from far away. He doesn't know who his killer is. Clairsentience doesn't model this well. A contact does' date=' because contacts can't tell you things they themselves don't know. The contact could also suggest other lines of investigation. "I have a will; it's in the roll-top desk." Etc.[/quote']

"Only through eyes of others". Simple, clean and in 6E1.

 

Also note that sometimes the dead might lie to you.

 

Any way you slice it' date=' there is one serious drawback; unless you somehow limit it heavily, most murders will be no mystery.[/quote']

That gives it a nother possible role: Plot device.

 

It's not a power on the character sheet. It's simply the way the characters get the quest/how they get to the next step of the quest.

Instead of having to find a culptrip and finding a motive, they have to get thier "Dead-speaker" to the corpse or have to find evidence that prooves what the corpse said.

 

Clairsentience in general and Retrocognition in special has to be highly controlled by the GM anyway, to not break the story. The same way he has to limit the knowledge of mooks, so a single Mind Controll does not break the entire crime sindicate.

[薔薇語]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Personally, I don't like the summon mechanic for this; not unless the ghost can be seen by all. Likewise, it can get very expensive very quick for even low point joes - not to mention more costly individuals. I think the simpliest way to handle this is to go the route of some earlier posters - contacts. Although, to be honest, I don't like just using that alone. What I think would be the best blend is to have the following:

9 Contact (Contact has useful Skills or resources), Organization Contact (x3) (9 Active Points) 11- (adjust the roll as needed)

 

10 Can You Hear Them?: Detect A Class Of Things 11- (Hearing Group), Discriminatory

 

10 Can You See Them?: Detect A Class of Things Thing 11- (Sight Group), Discriminatory

 

12 Cold Shivers: Detect A Class Of Things 11- (Mental Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Sense

 

I know that Hearing and Sight are already partially Discriminatory but, to be honest, I thought the detects were too cheep without it. The detects, as built, will allow the character to sense the presence of a ghost. He may not be able to locate the ghost, but he can at least tell if one is near by. He will be able to listen to their voices even though no one else can. He will be able to see their movements, even though no one else can. Thus giving the mechanics the ability to aptly account for the mad-man nature of such a power. It also allows the GM to establish certain ground rules for how ghosts opperate - and how the after life operates. For example, not all people need become ghosts. Thus, if the deceased died happy and content, he has no ghost for the PC to talk with. Not all ghosts are cooperative - they are just like any other NPC. It is possible to confine or otherwise hush a Ghost up so that the PC can't find it / communicate with it. It means that ghosts, while they may prefer to stay by their body, are not always going to. This could lead the PC(s) into a wild adventure in hopes of finding a ghost who has decided to go out clubbing or cross country sight seeing. Basically, it allows the GM to put in place some reasonable blocks to keep this from being too abusive - and increase the RPing possibilities.

 

The above is something I'd allow in a game (indeed, it is like a character I posted earlier - Jeremiah). It costs the PC about 41pts (could be 31 if you take of the Descrim) - and is thus a good chunk of points without being out of reach.

 

La Rose.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Here is how I did it for a Valkyrie PC who could unconsciously sense how something died:

Sense Demise: Retrocognitive

Clairsentience (Sight Group, Normal

Hearing And Normal Smell) (50 Active

Points); No Conscious Control (-2),

Precognition/Retrocognition Only (-1),

Vague and Unclear (-1/2), Only Events

Where There Was A Death (-1/2)

[MisterVimes]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

My player answered some questions that narrowed this down:

 

Death can be listed as natural and unnatural. So with that thought a person who has been murdered (unnatural death) has some type of weight on there soul. This weight would hold them from passing on to what ever there is after death. My power works off this weight, so i am helping them move on and opening that stairway to where ever. Now i am limited to the dead that wants my help. If they don't want help then i cant talk to them. Seeing most murder victims would want their killer captured they are willing to give information. Other limitation is the soul travels with the body until released, turned into a spirit(ghost), or taken by something. So I cant walk into a haunted house and talk to every spirit there, but i could go to the morgue and have a conversation depending on the condition of the body. So as the dead body breaks down the souls begins to pass on to the other side even if the weight that was placed on it has not been removed. So as decomp begins the information the dead can give begins to break down. The the fresher the dead the easier it is to communicate to them.

As far as taking spirit home, that may be a future power. Turn the soul into a spirit and have it help me somehow.

 

What questions can I ask? I think the recently deceased can tell me what they want. If they don't know their killer then they don't know, but they can still gather information as long as their body is still present.

[Beast]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

13 real 75 active

Speak with the dead: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Hearing Group), Discriminatory, Related Group of Dimensions, Telescopic: +15, Transmit (75 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -1 1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (Requires both hands; -1), OAF (something of their's or grave site; -1), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, Character May Take No Other Actions, -3/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Telescopic allows for going back 1 century before time mods kick in

Focus grave site or personal possession

 

helpful stuff

Having Universal translator if you don't know his language

eiditic memory to remember what they said

 

this pretty much an out of combat ritual

[massey]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Detect: Ghost - 3

Discriminatory - 5

Range - 5

Perceive into other dimension - 5

Transmit - 2

 

There, 20 points and you can speak with the dead. Whether any particular ghost is still around, or wants to talk to you is another matter.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Detect: Ghost - 3

Discriminatory - 5

Range - 5

Perceive into other dimension - 5

Transmit - 2

 

There, 20 points and you can speak with the dead. Whether any particular ghost is still around, or wants to talk to you is another matter.

 

So, spend 20 points for something you have zero control over and the GM can just go 'Bzzzt, sorry'? No thank you.

[massey]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

So' date=' spend 20 points for something you have zero control over and the GM can just go 'Bzzzt, sorry'? No thank you.[/quote']

 

Don't play with GMs like that.

[薔薇語]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

So' date=' spend 20 points for something you have zero control over and the GM can just go 'Bzzzt, sorry'? No thank you.[/quote']

 

huh? A GM can go "bzzzt" on any build possible. There is no reason that the GM can't "bzzzt" a summon or clairvoyance or anything else. Although I'm a bigger fan of my build than massey's, it isn't an unreasonable build. It gives you the desired ability but with the same kind of limitation as trying to find Stitch the Snitch among the living. Sometimes it works and you find him, sometimes you don't.

 

La Rose.

[Christopher]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Telescopic allows for going back 1 century before time mods kick in

Afaik there are no time mods (time based range mod) on Retrocognitive clairsentience. You can apply a Limitation that it does (I think a time related OCV penalty).

 

 

With the writeup he gave there a some reasonable limits to make this a non gamebreaker. As I read it:

Only works on unnatural Death: Murder namely.

Still a little bit unclear in teh semnatics: What about disasters, diseases & accidents? What about a murder where the victim itself thinks it was just an accident? What about very indirect deaths - Say, eating the poisioned pie there for somebody else or Death by negligence?

 

It also seems to be affected by time (according to decomposing. So in a desert this is not a big problem, but in most scenarios it is).

It doesn't works if they aren't willing and they might tell lies. I think either GM-fiat or make this part of any Perception Roll needed for the power/Flat Required Roll.

They can give you anything that happened before thier death, during thier death and everything that happened after thier death around thier body (this is the most important part for the followign stuff).

 

At first I thought detect, but I think the last part clearly points towards: Retroactive Clairsentience, IIF (Body that died of unnatural circusmtances of Opportunity), Required Roll (to simulate the ghost not talking/telling a lie; use skill, INT or Flat Roll), Only retrocognition, Vague and Unclear (the usual Chinses Whispers effect, with one man in the middle), Special Time Modifiers (based on decomposing of the Body, not Relative distance of the moment viewed), Only through senses of others (lower values, as you can see through the "eyes" of a ghost/the body after it's death).

Maybe add some rapid, to simulate that the Ghost skips empty phases/compresses repeaded activity.

[DShomshak]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

Given the player's description, Mind Link might be a fair way to represent the desired power. It would need the Any Distance/Dimension adder to reach into the afterlife (the spirit of the dead is effectively in another dimension, in the sense of "some location or state of being that is normally inaccessible), but is also No Range (or some analogous Limitation to represent that the character must be right by the body in order to speak to the dead person).

 

Not every restriction on usage needs to be represented in the Power writeup. Some sound like they are better treated as part of the nature of the supernatural/spiritual world in the campaign setting.

 

Dean Shomshak

[MisterVimes]

Re: Speak with the dead

 

I think the last part clearly points towards: Retroactive Clairsentience' date=' IIF (Body that died of unnatural circusmtances of Opportunity), Required Roll (to simulate the ghost not talking/telling a lie; use skill, INT or Flat Roll), Only retrocognition, Vague and Unclear (the usual Chinses Whispers effect, with one man in the middle), Special Time Modifiers (based on decomposing of the Body, not Relative distance of the moment viewed), Only through senses of others (lower values, as you can see through the "eyes" of a ghost/the body after it's death). Maybe add some rapid, to simulate that the Ghost skips empty phases/compresses repeated activity.

 

After Ken's email, I'm inclined to agree. Activation roll to simulate "willingness" on the part of the departed. I'll have to throw in conditional modifiers for the time limit and "unnatural death" (maybe -1/4 each) and I can avoid it being a game breaker by having the departed be a provider of clues. Since most people killed will (A) not be killed by the main villain or ( be killed in a way that does not reveal the identity of the killer.