*sigh* defects

[Sean Waters]

I'm a little worried about Side Effects.  Stop taking the medication then...

 

Look, they just don't seem to be proportional.  For -1/2 you get to take 3 Body damage every time you use a power (on average), and that includes the doubling for 'every time'.  10.5 Stun too, but I don't care about that so much.  3 Body.  Jeez...

 

That is not right.

 

Worse yet, you can mitigate the effects by picking something else instead of damage, say a 1 1/2d6 Stun drain (the result of which will be halved anyway, so 1-9 Stun).  Call me old fashioned but this seems far too wooly to me.

 

Here is the book definition of minor:

 

Minor Side Effect: 15 Active Points, or one-fourth of the Active Points in the power (whichever is greater), or some other minor or trivial effect (such as temporary penalties to PER Rolls or an important Skill roll)

 

The problem is that you do not get defences, which makes a 'damaging' side effect using normal damage really nasty compared to something like the Stun drain that you might not expect to have defences against anyway, or 'a temporary penalty to PER rolls.

 

The rules even have the temerity to suggest that if you use Standard Effect (i.e. 9 Stun, 3 Body each time) it is worth -1/4 less.  For 1.5 Stun?  That is daft  It will take a normal human 3 weeks to get that back, and even most superheroes will take several days to recover the Body by normal healing.

 

I would suggest that for each -1/4 limitation you take 2 Body damage (no defences) OR if you want to use an attack power instead, you take the Stun but not the Body.

 

Thoughts?

[Christopher]

Understood Problem: There should be a way to take damage from side effect other then Normal Damage, because even normal damage does quite a lot of BODY.

Solution: Instead of "3d6 Normal Damage" write "4d6 Stun only damage". To compensate for the lack of BODY you take I added a dice.

 

But I am honestly not certain what the issue is.

[JasonPacker]

BODY damage is too severe (yes, it takes a while to heal that stuff up!) but STUN or END damage is too ephemeral - "give me a second to take a recover or two..." in all but the lowest-powered games (and even those, in non-stressful situations). Add in the vague "lasts as long as appropriate" for non-damage effects, then coupled with "about as long as it would take to heal that many points of BODY" and we're back in the territory of "I botched one spell, and I'm going to look like a rat terrier mix for three weeks..."

[Tasha]

1/4 is a MINOR side effect. It's supposed to be Ephermeral. Losing 5-9 stun points for a turn is pretty devistating even for most Superheroes more so for most Heroic Spell casters. You COULD take a 3d6 blast side effect which would do body and Stun to the character. Averaging 3 body and 11 stun, which many PC's could shrug off in a single Recovery.

 

If you want to have a Side effect that turns you into a rat terrier, that would be an Extreme Side Effect.

I agree with Christopher. I don't see what problem there is for Side Effects.

[IndianaJoe3]

I've experimented with using Change Environment as a Side Effect. It worked well in context.

[Grailknight]

I think Sean feels that taking 3 BODY for a -1/4 is not worth it. I tend to agree but since i haven't seen a PC with this complication, its not a problem for me.

[bigbywolfe]

1/4 is a MINOR side effect. It's supposed to be Ephermeral. Losing 5-9 stun points for a turn is pretty devistating even for most Superheroes more so for most Heroic Spell casters. You COULD take a 3d6 blast side effect which would do body and Stun to the character. Averaging 3 body and 11 stun, which many PC's could shrug off in a single Recovery.

 

If you want to have a Side effect that turns you into a rat terrier, that would be an Extreme Side Effect.

 

I agree with Christopher. I don't see what problem there is for Side Effects.

Do these two sentences completely contradict each other or am I completely misreading your entire post?

[Killer Shrike]

The mechanics are there to model the concept. We start with an effect, fit a mechanic to it, and then assess modifiers if necessary.

 

If the concept is something like "I do something and take damage from it, such that I can do it about 3 times before starting to kill myself", then sure I guess.  If you've arrived there and the problem is the lim value seems too low for the impact...ok...fix it.

 

If that's not the concept per se, but the Side Effect mechanic is forcing it in that direction, different problem.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Pretty much.  I would only create a Side Effect that has my character take Body damage for a power my character is supposed to use sparingly.  For other powers with Side Effect, I would take something other than Body damage.  Stun only damage, or Drain effect or a skill penalty or some such.  Those probably comprise the vast majority of the Side Effects that I utilize.

[Sean Waters]

OK, I'll try and be brief.  I'm using averages.

 

1. For -1/4 you can take 3 Body and 10.5 Stun as a side effect or you can take Stun drain that will drain 5.5 stun.  That is not balanced.  Sure you do not have to take the 3 Body option, but if that is your concept, why not get a better cost break: it is damn well worth more than the Stun Drain.

 

2. To take that a step further, for +1, the figures are 12 Body/42 Stun or 22 Stun drain.  No contest.

 

3. As an aside to that, you might take side effects when, for example, you fail an activation roll.  You get the same cost break whether the activation roll is 8- or 14-, even though you will take the damage a lot more in the first instance.  That is not balanced either.  That is a different point though.

 

Now the reason that the problem exists is because the active points of a Blast and the active points of a Drain are relatively balanced, if you take into account the scarcity and level of appropriate defences.  Side Effects do not use defences, so the balance goes away.

 

The only way I can see to balance that is have something like an inverse NND effect: something with rare SFX is bought at 'cost.  Something with common SFX will 'cost' more when calculating the effect for Side Effects purposes.

[Tasha]

Do these two sentences completely contradict each other or am I completely misreading your entire post?

Sorry the first sentence is refering to losing 7-9 stun to a drain. Which will keep them from the PC for a bit. Whereas a 9pts of stun taken of Normal or Killing damage can be totally recovered on the PC's next phase (which can be in that same segment as taking the damage).

 

re Sean's last post

Drains take longer to fully recover than Stun damage. Which is why taking a Drain vs taking a Stun Only Blast is balanced.

 

The point savings from "Takes a Roll" is already built into "takes a roll". You could argue that basing it on a skill that has a high roll is unbalanced, but I think that spending enough points to get that Skill roll high enough is punishment enough.

[Christopher]

1. So your only beef is that "3d6 Normal Damage" produces too much BODY damage for a minor side effect? Then don't take 3d6 Normal Damage or 1d6 Killing Damage as Minor Side Effect. Problem solved.

Walls have the tendency to not hurt you if you do not run straight into them.

 

3. Why would I waste my time with a power that has a 8- Activation roll??? Aside from any side effects, the power still costs actions and endurance. The power has such a high rate of falure it is basically useless. Heck, it must be a very wierd day before I even take such a power.

Any increase in the severity of Side Effect is already figured into the higher value of RaR. Remember that you need a to have a chance to fail before you even can take Side Effect*.

 

*For this case, wich is Side Effect without "Always Applies" Multiplier.

[Christopher]

You could argue that basing it on a skill that has a high roll is unbalanced, but I think that spending enough points to get that Skill roll high enough is punishment enough.

The break even point is where "Cost for Power with Lim." + "Cost for Skill" = "Cost of power without Limitation".

 

And of course we have trust in our GM's not being totally inept idiots who see somebody trying to get a 18- Activation Roll via "Requires a Skill Roll".

[Sean Waters]

1. So your only beef is that "3d6 Normal Damage" produces too much BODY damage for a minor side effect? Then don't take 3d6 Normal Damage or 1d6 Killing Damage as Minor Side Effect. Problem solved.

Walls have the tendency to not hurt you if you do not run straight into them.

 

3. Why would I waste my time with a power that has a 8- Activation roll??? Aside from any side effects, the power still costs actions and endurance. The power has such a high rate of falure it is basically useless. Heck, it must be a very wierd day before I even take such a power.

Any increase in the severity of Side Effect is already figured into the higher value of RaR. Remember that you need a to have a chance to fail before you even can take Side Effect*.

 

*For this case, wich is Side Effect without "Always Applies" Multiplier.

 

1. Problem avoided, not solved.  What if you WANT to do a bit of normal damage, including a bit of Body?  Why is that not a valid way to do things?  Well, of course it is, but you are being penalised for taking that concept over another, or at least not properly rewarded in terms of a cost break.  I have identified why this problem exists, but it remains a problem.

 

3. Well, it is one of the options that the system offers and there are characters built like that.  I think you may be avoiding the problem rather than addressing it.  I appreciate that 'I would not do that or let anyone do that' is a solution of sorts, but we are discussion the 6e Hero System on this board.  Nothing we say here is going to change how the book reads, but maybe when 7e comes around any refinements we have thrashed out might be incorporated.  As you point out, RaR has its own problems for the character, which is why you get a cost break.  If you then take side effects as well, the amount of cost break for that should be related to how often it happens.  That is acknowledged, as you point out, by having the 2x limitation if it always goes off.  A 8- activation roll is reasonably close to 'always goes off', but you get the same cost break as a 14- 'hardly ever goes off'.

[Beast]

why not take it as a body drain instead of a KA

1d6 recovers 5pts per 5 min

 

this would represent that the user is weakened and easier to kill but given time (5min) they are back up to snuff

[Sean Waters]

If you are just minimising effects, why not just take a 1.5d6 Body Drain?  You only lose 2.75 Body (on average) and you will get that back in a turn or less.

 

The issues is not that you are forced to take the nastier option, it is that there is a lack of consistency in effects.  This is caused by the cost and defence differential between different powers.

 

It seems to me we can do better.  We could set the default damaging mechanism as a Drain, with some tweaks.

 

For 'damage' side effects, what about each -1/4 of side effects = 10 character points (or active points/6, whichever is higher) that return at 5/turn, or 5 (or active points/12, whichever is higher) that return at 5/minute.  You can split that as you like and 'defences' count double for point loss.

 

So, for instance, you could lose 2 Body and 6 Stun and get back 1 Body and 3 Stun per turn, or lose 1 Body and 3 Stun and get that back after a minute.

 

Turn = combat time, minute = non-combat time, in effect.  You can choose a longer recovery period if you like; 4 hours, a day, a week.  Each of those steps gets you an extra -1/4.  You can take a longer recovery period, but get no additional cost break.

 

If you want it random use 10DCs and 5 DCS, and you get an extra -1/4.  

 

The points can come off anything, including the power the side effects are attached to.

 

You get -1/4 LESS if the side effect only occurs when you activate a constant or long lasting power.

 

If the side effect always occurs, take an extra -1/2.

 

If the side effect usually occurs, take an extra -1/4.

 

If the side effect occurs about half the time, no change.

 

If the side effect occurs less than half the time, -1/4 less.

 

If the side effect hardly ever occurs, -1/2 less.

 

For less quantifiable side effects, you will have to go with the GM eyeball, but for 'damage', that seems to be sufficiently nasty without being utterly ridiculous.

[Ninja-Bear]

Sean why not just set the body effect to 1 instead of 3? It still hurts just not as deadly.

[Ninja-Bear]

Or I just thought of it, how about the character takes 1 body (or 3 stun) per 2 missed on RaR? That could be more fair.

[Sean Waters]

I like this idea in theory  The trouble is that makes side effects really deadly to take with a low activation roll, even if you do reduce the damage to 1 BODY.  Take an 8- activation and roll an 18...whereas if you have a 14- activation, you wind up with a maximum 'fail' of 4

 

You can certainly agree any side effect you like with the GM; it would be nice to have official base figures rather than be able to use any power as a side effect, which would mean picking a single power or effect as a base line.  Then if you want to do something different, the cost can be calculated in relation to that effect.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well Sean I should have said that the maximum would be 6 bod-the max of 1d6 which equals 15 pts (least 5th ed) . Now I would say about your concern of rolling 18 is a small chance but a possibilty no matter the actication roll. But if you want to risk a side effect that does body with an 8- ....don't cry to the GM if it happens.

[Sean Waters]

Fair point - it is a risky strategy

[Sean Waters]

...

 

re Sean's last post

Drains take longer to fully recover than Stun damage. Which is why taking a Drain vs taking a Stun Only Blast is balanced.

 

.....

 

Not necessarily, Tasha.  1 1/2d6 Stun drain will drain (on average) 5.5 points.  Let us take the maximum though: 9 points.  Halve that because stun is a 'defence', then you have 4.5 character points, or 9 stun.

 

Compare that to a Stun only side effect Blast, that averages 10.5 stun

 

At the end of the phase you get 5 points back, wiping out the stun loss.  Unless you take an early recovery (unlikely in combat in my experience) you would get your recovery at the same time and it would have to be at least 10.5 (on average) to get it all back then (possibly not in a heroic game) PLUS if you have taken any other stun damage, the drain is on top of your REC.

 

It seems to me that in almost every situation the drain is best.  Of course if you use the power several times a turn and lose points each time, I am with you, but you will probably avoid this if you can.

 

Also with bigger drains it can take longer: 3d6 stun drain could take 2 turns if you rolled '18', but the average of 6d6 Blast Stun only is 21, so that is bound to take at least 2 turns to get back just using normal recovery and that assumes you are not losing stun to other sources: the total stun loss from drain is likely to be smaller so it could make the difference between conscious and unconscious.

[Lucius]

 

I'm a little worried about Side Effects.  Stop taking the medication then...

 

 

 

 

Are you ever actually ON your medication?

 

1. So your only beef is that "3d6 Normal Damage" produces too much BODY damage for a minor side effect? Then don't take 3d6 Normal Damage or 1d6 Killing Damage as Minor Side Effect. Problem solved.

Walls have the tendency to not hurt you if you do not run straight into them.

 

 

 

I think in this case the question is, why is the wall there?

 

Or I just thought of it, how about the character takes 1 body (or 3 stun) per 2 missed on RaR? That could be more fair.

 

Just an idea, but....

 

Take max damage (however we define that) at 18.

 

Scale it down for each point under that.

 

So if you take an Activation at 8 or less, and roll 9, you take very little damage. If the Activation is 14, then if you fail at all, it will hurt.

 

If damage is automatic, perhaps the 3d6 can still be rolled to determine just how bad it is. Perhaps on a 3 or 4 even the "automatic" damage is avoided.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to look at Effects from both Sides

[Sean Waters]

Are you ever actually ON your medication?

 

 

.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to look at Effects from both Sides

 

 

The sort of meds you can take in a glass with ice and water, yes, sure...

[Kraven Kor]

I just build the side effects as a power themselves, and price the limitation based on the cost of the side effect compared to the cost of the power it is tacked onto.

 

If side effect AP = the power's AP, that is -1.  1/2 the AP = -1/2.  2x the AP = -2.  And so forth.  Then adjust based on frequency and all that per the Side Effects limitations.

 

Side effects that do damage suck.  They just do.  Sure, it indeed simulates the "reality" of some powers (Exploding Man!  He can Explode!  But his powers also affect himself and his friends...  *groan*)

 

I generally go with the Drain option.  It prices out better (15 AP = 3d6 attack, potential of 6 BODY with no defense...  while a 20 AP Drain is 2d6 and recovers faster.)  You can even do Drain BODY for powers that are intended to injure the person using them in order to get less extreme amounts of damage from "minor" side effects.