7th Edition thoughts

[Old Man]

Hero 5th moved very strongly toward the tech-manual end of the spectrum. 6th is significantly better, but still not as atmospheric as Anima or anything by GW.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The basic hero manual, by it's very nature, cant include a lot of fluff. as a generic game system, what "fiction" is there attached to the game to showcase? champions? that gives people an erroneous idea that hero is good only for champions, and such fluff should be limited to their specific genre and/or campaign setting book.

 

When it comes to hero's campaign settings, i feel they dont include nearly enough fluff. that's the stuff that gets players excited to play them game. it gives them an idea of the atmosphere and what to expect from it. champions books should be full of comic panels (there should be one at the beginning of each chapter, like the exalted 2cnd edition books) the valdorian age book should include a few examples of short fiction set in the world. the terran empire book should include captain's logs, battle reports and planetary surveys.

 

And each of these campaign settings need expansion and update books. champions usually has no problem with this but turakian age and terran empire are pretty spartan as campaign settings go. for valdorian age, the magic items book wasnt bad and the book of dragons while including lots of good info, was 90% stats. terran empire had the planetary book which did expand the fluff a bit, but not enough imo. what terran empire needed was a sci-fi equipment book that had a ton of equipment with lots of flavor and would give a broad stroke of what warfare was like in the empire.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think part of the issue is that people think that the system should be able to do ANYTHING. The problem with a system that can do ANYTHING is it can't do everything well.

 

This means that certain characters with high power levels won't be able to be designed or built in lower-powered games. Remember that if you agree to sit down to a GM's table, you have to play characters that are going to make the game fun. Maybe a Rogue type character isn't always the type of character a game needs or wants. If that's the case, and those are the characters you typically prefer playing, you may need to find a different gamemaster that will let you run a little more wild.

This is why I crinfe when I hear the phrase "You can build any character you want"! I do understand the intention however ithink people take this at face value and then more problems arise. (To me the implied "make any character" is and should be restricted by several factors namely genre, campaign guidelines, and general group compatability)

[Ninja-Bear]

Cringe, I meant cringe!

[BlueCloud2k2]

As far as fluff goes, why not do what the Eberron campaign setting book do and have a splash page each chapter that looks like a comic books. And since there are Pulp, Fantasy, and other genre comic books...

[mhd]

Because that either looks pretty bad or costs good money? And tends to polarize even more than most RPG art.

 

Speaking of bad comic book intros, after reading this thread I ordered a used copy Champions: New Millennium from overseas and it just arrived a few days ago. Interesting. Both art and layout aged quite a bit, but I really do like a few things about their take on the game. Sure, without modifiers there's not much differentiation between the different power sets (every energy controller/wizard looks the same), but with the different attribute/difficulty setup at least everyone spends quite a large amount of points on skills. Not just a few points to raise it to default level, plus a couple more to make the Power skill mostly irrelevant.

 

Then again, I'm probably viewing it from a Heroic angle, where both modified powers and highly skilled characters are more common than in a golden age supers campaign.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I actually really liked the artwork in C:TNM. I feel that was the one area they got right. speaking of artwork, i feel this is an area in which hero games falls way short of the industry standard. not to disparage any of the regular artists used by hero games because they are talented, but i feel that many of them are not of the style that is currently popluar and many newcomers would likely feel that their art is dated. it is important to keep up with the times in that arena to help remain relevant with the youth of today.

 

Art is part of the fluff after all and these days it's the fluff that sells your books half the time (thanks white wolf!)

[mhd]

I always thought people buy WW books *despite* the art, not *because* of it. Just like West End Games.

 

(Unless we're talking about that Exalted cover.)

[Zephrosyne]

I have to be honest.  I think 6th Edition is damn near perfect, especially with the Advanced Player's Guides.  It eliminates some of the things I didn't care for with previous editions (e.g. figured characteristics).  I can't really think of much that I would change: a few small things here and there at most (e.g. Strength scaling, phased based movement), nothing big.  Change too much, it wouldn't be Hero System anymore.  I don't have a problem with how big the book is or how it is written, especially since it is well organized and the everything is easy to find.  I don't mind a rule book reading like a tech manual or whatever other derisive description people come up with.  If I want evocative, I'll read a fiction novel or watch a movie.  I don't mind rules reading like rules.  I plan to learn the game not take it out on a date.  I like how Steve Long gave lots of examples and detail to everything.  I also like some of the repetition.  It is good reinforcement.  I would rather have all the rules and examples there and not need them than to have to chase an answer down because they are not there. The details provide a good frame of reference for when I have to make decisions on the fly.  I almost bought a copy of Champions Complete.  I am glad that I got the pdf instead.  It is pretty useless to me.  At best I would recommend it for some of my players that are a bit lazier as far as reading the rules since it is considerably shorter than 6th Edition.  Seeing the direction that Hero Games is going, I don't think I am the target audience for 7th Edition.  The company seems to be going the way of making less detailed core books and self-contained genre books.  That would be a waste of money for me but I understand that it is an business decision.  I'm just one person.  On the plus side, one less gaming company to spend money on.   

[shuddemell]

I have to be honest.  I think 6th Edition is damn near perfect, especially with the Advanced Player's Guides.  It eliminates some of the things I didn't care for with previous editions (e.g. figured characteristics).  I can't really think of much that I would change: a few small things here and there at most (e.g. Strength scaling, phased based movement), nothing big.  Change too much, it wouldn't be Hero System anymore.  I don't have a problem with how big the book is or how it is written, especially since it is well organized and the everything is easy to find.  I don't mind a rule book reading like a tech manual or whatever other derisive description people come up with.  If I want evocative, I'll read a fiction novel or watch a movie.  I don't mind rules reading like rules.  I plan to learn the game not take it out on a date.  I like how Steve Long gave lots of examples and detail to everything.  I also like some of the repetition.  It is good reinforcement.  I would rather have all the rules and examples there and not need them than to have to chase an answer down because they are not there. The details provide a good frame of reference for when I have to make decisions on the fly.  I almost bought a copy of Champions Complete.  I am glad that I got the pdf instead.  It is pretty useless to me.  At best I would recommend it for some of my players that are a bit lazier as far as reading the rules since it is considerably shorter than 6th Edition.  Seeing the direction that Hero Games is going, I don't think I am the target audience for 7th Edition.  The company seems to be going the way of making less detailed core books and self-contained genre books.  That would be a waste of money for me but I understand that it is an business decision.  I'm just one person.  On the plus side, one less gaming company to spend money on.   

I mostly agree with this, the presentation is mainly what MIGHT draw more players though, so that could be an area where a new presentation is useful. As far as changing the rules to suit those who want it dumbed down or changed to support a particular like or dislike, I would say, just don't use that tool rather than writing a new book. As I have said before, I honestly don't see HERO as the type of game that will attract a whole lot of new players. In my experience, like with most hobbies, 90% are lazy and will do the easiest, most common (LCD) game, and not bother exploring the other games available. The 10% that do will find HERO if it suits their tastes, changing the system or even the presentation won't change that.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I always thought people buy WW books *despite* the art, not *because* of it. Just like West End Games.

 

(Unless we're talking about that Exalted cover.)

oh no.  Major WW fans LOVE the artwork.

[steriaca]

I mostly agree with this, the presentation is mainly what MIGHT draw more players though, so that could be an area where a new presentation is useful. As far as changing the rules to suit those who want it dumbed down or changed to support a particular like or dislike, I would say, just don't use that tool rather than writing a new book. As I have said before, I honestly don't see HERO as the type of game that will attract a whole lot of new players. In my experience, like with most hobbies, 90% are lazy and will do the easiest, most common (LCD) game, and not bother exploring the other games available. The 10% that do will find HERO if it suits their tastes, changing the system or even the presentation won't change that.

What might atract them is good artwork. For us old timers, haven't we seen that same piece of art 500 times before?

[shuddemell]

What might atract them is good artwork. For us old timers, haven't we seen that same piece of art 500 times before?

Definitely would be nice to have a fresh presentation with new art. The real problem with that is the bankroll needed to get good professional quality art, and it should be made for setting material rather than the ruleset. I have (maybe should say had) high hopes for Narosia, but only time will tell.

[mhd]

oh no.  Major WW fans LOVE the artwork.

I haven't looked at newer books for quite a while, but back in the olden days (about the time of the oWod/nWoD transition), the "art direction" was rather haphazard. So in one book you got the usual semi-realistic line art (often a bit gritty/MTV-like) and suddenly an odd collection of smudges. I'm not even counting the sometimes illegible diegetic fluff layout.

 

Apart from Exalted, of course. In Creation, fanservice rules (NB: Exalted has some odd fans).

[Bodkins Odds]

Point taken. Now show me one game system worth playing where every stat increase is meaningful beyond getting to that next point where you get a bonus/break point.

 

GURPS. Each of the four main stats is in the three to eighteen range and is used as a roll under target. And, until the fourth edition decided to change it for purely marketing reasons, each point was priced based on how much it changed the odds of rolling under it.

 

The big problems with GURPS are: The fact that the skill pricing scheme (along with many other things) and which skills act as the base value for other skills are determined solely by real world logic instead of any notion of game balance. The vehicle design rules require actually difficult math such as square roots and polynomials simply for the sake of "realism."* And the power rules aren't as good as HERO and actually sucked hard rocks until the otherwise horrid fourth edition came out.

 

Aside from those problems it's basically HERO light, but with better sourcebooks. Sourcebooks which can, oddly enough, generally be used with any other game system. And it's much easier to make solo adventures with, if you happen to like that sort of thing. Of course, aside from fixing the power rules, fourth edition made everything worse in a futile attempt to attract the D&D only crowd that was never going to play GURPS anyway! And it removed both the starting solo adventure and the example campaign! Those were the best ways to learn the rules! A POX ON STEVE JACKSON! A POX I SAY!

 

BodkinsOdds.exe has stopped responding.

 

For this reason I've often thought that Hero books are laid out backwards.  They should start with the combat and power rules, with sample characters for immediate use, and character creation should be in the back.  If you want to take this to an extreme, you could actually use Hero to build a (gag) class-based PC framework, with (choke) predefined powers/spells, and it would be perfectly playable.  These would serve as training wheels until the players were ready to take them off and play a grown-up game.  

 

They should start like GURPS & a certain edition of BD&D used to do and start with a character sheet and a solo adventure. Then go to the rules, then character creation, then a pre-made group adventure. With the solo adventure having notes in it to tell the player how to do something the first time it comes up, and the group adventure having tips for the DM and, when necessary, short reminders of relevant rules.

 

* Mind you, I find tinkering with the GURPS vehicle rules a fun past time in itself. Especially with the GURPS Mecha supplement.

[Zephrosyne]

Funny, Bodkins, I actually liked GURPS 4th edition much better than 3rd.  I am by no means a GURPS expert and I have not played it nearly as much as I have other games but I didn't care for 3rd edition at all.  GURPS 4th just seems a lot tighter.  Maybe they should have also replaced the magic system but it doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother a lot of people.  I thought GURPS Supers in 3rd edition was just atrocious and the system for psychic powers was marginally better.  I do agree that they have really great sourcebooks; although, I don't think the Hero System sourcebooks (e.g Star Hero, Fantasy Hero, Hero Skills) are bad by any means. 

[shuddemell]

GURPS is an excellent system, especially the 4th which fixed the big problem of having all the rules spread all over the place. Their sourcebooks are excellent (I use them for campaigns I run or plan in Hero). I personally just the like the tight integrity of the Hero System. Sometimes (less so in the 4th Ed) GURPS feels patched together to me.

[Bodkins Odds]

Lets see, 4e divorced the point cost of stats from the 3d6 bell curve, added a horrible setting including an equally horrible retcon to Dai Blackthorne, removed the starter adventures, and added good power rules and slightly better organization in full color books with cheap artwork that somehow managed to look worse than when the books were in black and white (The colouring in my copy is printed almost a half inch farther to the right than the line art  ). Oh, and they scaled up the amount of Disadvantages a character can take, even though having more character points doesn't substantially increase the amount of disads that can effectively be brought up in play without actively screwing the characters over.

 

Nope. 4e is still worse than 3e Revised. If I ever play GURPS again I'll just borrow the 4e power rules and play 3e.

 

PS. GURPS probably feels patched together because 90% of the rules are entirely optional, labeled as such, and most of them are grouped up into their own sections of the rulebook depending on what kind of optional rule it is.

[shuddemell]

Lets see, 4e divorced the point cost of stats from the 3d6 bell curve, added a horrible setting including an equally horrible retcon to Dai Blackthorne, removed the starter adventures, and added good power rules and slightly better organization in full color books with cheap artwork that somehow managed to look worse than when the books were in black and white (The colouring in my copy is printed almost a half inch farther to the right than the line art  ). Oh, and they scaled up the amount of Disadvantages a character can take, even though having more character points doesn't substantially increase the amount of disads that can effectively be brought up in play without actively screwing the characters over.

 

Nope. 4e is still worse than 3e Revised. If I ever play GURPS again I'll just borrow the 4e power rules and play 3e.

 

PS. GURPS probably feels patched together because 90% of the rules are entirely optional, labeled as such, and most of them are grouped up into their own sections of the rulebook depending on what kind of optional rule it is.

Yeah, could be that, it always seemed like they made rules to deal with corner cases rather than getting a rule that worked for most everything to me... Last version I actually played was 3ER so I can't say anything about how 4 plays, just that it was better organized than before.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I too utilize GURPS sourcebooks for campaigns I run in HERO.  Most notably the Space Atlas books for my Star Hero campaign.  My problem with GURPS is that it's all over the place with its optional rules.  HERO has a lot more internal consistency and thus, much easier to make "on-the-spot" rulings in HERO.  And HERO is a lot better balanced in regard to the point cost of powers than GURPS is.  With Superpowers, Magic, Psionics and Cybernetics all using completely different rules to purchase and utilize, it's a lot easier to learn how powers work in HERO and to apply them to various situations than to remember everything you have available to you in GURPS.

 

The GURPS Martial Arts book is pretty good though.  Not quite as good as Ninja Hero/UMA, but quite good.  I was impressed with it.

[shuddemell]

I too utilize GURPS sourcebooks for campaigns I run in HERO.  Most notably the Space Atlas books for my Star Hero campaign.  My problem with GURPS is that it's all over the place with its optional rules.  HERO has a lot more internal consistency and thus, much easier to make "on-the-spot" rulings in HERO.  And HERO is a lot better balanced in regard to the point cost of powers than GURPS is.  With Superpowers, Magic, Psionics and Cybernetics all using completely different rules to purchase and utilize, it's a lot easier to learn how powers work in HERO and to apply them to various situations than to remember everything you have available to you in GURPS.

 

The GURPS Martial Arts book is pretty good though.  Not quite as good as Ninja Hero/UMA, but quite good.  I was impressed with it.

Exactly!

[Old Man]

I never did like the way GURPS defined what would be powers in Hero terms. I really felt that it was closer to the AD&D spell list than to an actual system for defining game effects.

 

GURPS sourcebooks are fantastic though.

[Ndreare]

GURPS always got a lot of flack for the magic system. However I have always considered it one of the best magic systems out there. The spell systems works well within itself allows normal player to buy cheep but no to cheep so that every player and NPC has magic resistance.

 

All you have to do is add your flavor and style (such as the ideas from GURPS Thaumatology or the elemental aspects) and you are good to go. We used to play with many variants such as special metals acting as mana dampeners or power objects acting as Mana enhancers allowing player to use magic without being a mage.

[Bodkins Odds]

GURPS always got a lot of flack for the magic system. However I have always considered it one of the best magic systems out there. The spell systems works well within itself allows normal player to buy cheep but no to cheep so that every player and NPC has magic resistance.

 

All you have to do is add your flavor and style (such as the ideas from GURPS Thaumatology or the elemental aspects) and you are good to go. We used to play with many variants such as special metals acting as mana dampeners or power objects acting as Mana enhancers allowing player to use magic without being a mage.

 

I for one, also love the GURPS magic system, and I find making to hit a contested skill role (even with spells) has a certain elegance to it. Not that I dislike the HERO way of doing it; I wouldn't play HERO if I did. I imagine the GURPS spell system works even better if you use the 4th Edition power system to make magic related Advantages and Perks. I am surprised that they didn't add rules for making abilities for the traditional Psionic & Magic systems as part of their new Power rules though.

 

Also, the Magic system is probably the only place in the whole of GURPS where skills defaulted to other skills for game balance reasons instead of real life logic.

[Zephrosyne]

Yeah, I like the magic system too.  I seems very logical for lack of a better word.  I also like the power system in 4th edition.  Mixing the two is just problematic in my opinion.  The thing I probably like the most about GURPS, probably over any effects based system, is that the cost of a trait is not entirely based on the trait's combat value.  I mean scientific skills cost more than easy combat skills because they are harder to learn and can be more useful.  You also pay a meaningful price for things like Status and Wealth because the game appreciates how valuable these things can be.  Other games just basically say "pay 2 points and your rich" or something like that.  I just like Hero a tad more because Hero doesn't seem to have as many moving parts.  As someone said earlier, Hero is internally consistent.  Once you know it, you know it and few exceptions to the rules are necessary.  I also like the scaling in Hero a bit better and combat wise, Hero is a bit more forgiving.  Both are incredibly fine games that allow you to make any character you can imagine as long as you have the point budget and with as much detail as you could ever want.  We are lucky as gamers to have both resources.