7th Edition thoughts

[Ndreare]

Yes, it just makes sense that a wizard would have to spend time learning to sense, heat/fire, the shape it, then create it, then finally focus it into the tangible destructive force of fireballs. While I find HERO superior and definitely more balanced, from a logic point of view the spell progression in GURPS. GURPS also allowed a line between the naturally gifted in Magic and those who simply study it and learn it. But having Magery at varying levels.

 

 

I have done similar things in HERO, creating skill & talent based magic systems (and shared them on here). So that character start with low power levels and have to build up, but it is nice when all the work is done for you ahead of time.

[Stacie.Winters]

The basic hero manual, by it's very nature, cant include a lot of fluff. as a generic game system, what "fiction" is there attached to the game to showcase? champions? that gives people an erroneous idea that hero is good only for champions, and such fluff should be limited to their specific genre and/or campaign setting book.

 

When it comes to hero's campaign settings, i feel they dont include nearly enough fluff. that's the stuff that gets players excited to play them game. it gives them an idea of the atmosphere and what to expect from it. champions books should be full of comic panels (there should be one at the beginning of each chapter, like the exalted 2cnd edition books) the valdorian age book should include a few examples of short fiction set in the world. the terran empire book should include captain's logs, battle reports and planetary surveys.

 

And each of these campaign settings need expansion and update books. champions usually has no problem with this but turakian age and terran empire are pretty spartan as campaign settings go. for valdorian age, the magic items book wasnt bad and the book of dragons while including lots of good info, was 90% stats. terran empire had the planetary book which did expand the fluff a bit, but not enough imo. what terran empire needed was a sci-fi equipment book that had a ton of equipment with lots of flavor and would give a broad stroke of what warfare was like in the empire.

 

I think that Herogames own settings/worlds are very bland and lack inspiration and flavor. All of them feel like carbon copies of other more popular settings and they changed just enough to put their own name on it.

 

They all lack flavor and that's entirely due to a lot of factors: layout, writing, lack of fluff and story, and a focus on technical game mechanisms (which is how Hero System is always presented to me).

 

That's why I have suggested that if they ever did do a 7th Edition, they also need to have a new slew of campaign settings that can show off the game while also giving players something really cool, exciting and inspirational to get into. By inspirational I mean the writing, the look, layout and art style should cause the player to flip through the book and the players reaction should be "I so want to play that," or "omg this world is so cool, I can see playing all kinds of different characters."

[Stacie.Winters]

I mostly agree with this, the presentation is mainly what MIGHT draw more players though, so that could be an area where a new presentation is useful. As far as changing the rules to suit those who want it dumbed down or changed to support a particular like or dislike, I would say, just don't use that tool rather than writing a new book. As I have said before, I honestly don't see HERO as the type of game that will attract a whole lot of new players. In my experience, like with most hobbies, 90% are lazy and will do the easiest, most common (LCD) game, and not bother exploring the other games available. The 10% that do will find HERO if it suits their tastes, changing the system or even the presentation won't change that.

 

Look has a huge bearing on how people react to something. Changing the presentation will have an impact for a lot of people if it can inspire people to actually want to play the game and right now this game does the exact opposite.

 

You can have the same identical rules in a new edition but if that new edition had better layout, better art, and was molded into a really cool campaign world that ISN'T Champions because that world is just not exciting anymore (It's a Marvel clone, everybody knows it and why play in Champions when people would rather play in Marvel?) and that would at least garner a few people out there who would take another look at the game.

 

The rules first, rules only, toolkit style of writing for this game is what does this game in on the whole. Changing this impression, with GOOD art, full color campaign setting worlds that shows off how cool this game really is... getting a well established game writer/designer involved on this would also help, someone with some recognition for being known to create cool game settings. That would help also.

 

Keeping it how it is now will always relegate this game to the bottom of the list and frankly it's sad that there are some fans of this game that would rather keep it at the bottom instead of wanting to see it become better and more used.

[Greywind]

Instead of wishing something were so, wouldn't it be better to channel that into making your own world, instead of wishing someone would create the world/write the source book/etc.?

[Beast]

in the almost 30 yrs I've played Champions

nobody has just used the straight up CU only

all have made minor or major tweaks to it

 

Instead of wishing something were so, wouldn't it be better to channel that into making your own world, instead of wishing someone would create the world/write the source book/etc.?

[Greywind]

I've always used my own and incorporated stuff from different stuff. I have Vibora Bay and San Angelo. Never got around to building Millennium City.

[shuddemell]

Look has a huge bearing on how people react to something. Changing the presentation will have an impact for a lot of people if it can inspire people to actually want to play the game and right now this game does the exact opposite.

 

You can have the same identical rules in a new edition but if that new edition had better layout, better art, and was molded into a really cool campaign world that ISN'T Champions because that world is just not exciting anymore (It's a Marvel clone, everybody knows it and why play in Champions when people would rather play in Marvel?) and that would at least garner a few people out there who would take another look at the game.

 

The rules first, rules only, toolkit style of writing for this game is what does this game in on the whole. Changing this impression, with GOOD art, full color campaign setting worlds that shows off how cool this game really is... getting a well established game writer/designer involved on this would also help, someone with some recognition for being known to create cool game settings. That would help also.

 

Keeping it how it is now will always relegate this game to the bottom of the list and frankly it's sad that there are some fans of this game that would rather keep it at the bottom instead of wanting to see it become better and more used.

Agreed, but who has the funds to bankroll this? I don't so much think mechanics need to change, but impression certainly should... but practically speaking I don't find it feasible. Please prove me wrong.

 

Ultimately, being a toolkit is going to keep it a minority system, just because of the work required to set up your own campaign. Rewarding for those of us who like that sort of thing... not so much the general gaming audience.

[Stacie.Winters]

The only limitations we face in life are the ones we put in them. Being practical just limits us.

 

In a world of Kickstarter now, where Monte Cook got over a half million dollars for Numenera funded by many of us people, where there is an actual real medium of getting the funds to get new games produced and all that... to live like it's back pre-millennium thinking that herogames would have to get all the money up front to do a 7th Edition even though they have already used Kickstarter for a few products... the entire thinking that it's too practical and difficult to pull off getting a new edition with a new facelift someday is just ridiculously limiting to me.

 

In the end it would be up to herogames to want it, and if they are happy with how their game is perceived and written the way it is now than that's just how it will be. I'll enjoy it no matter what because I like it, but I know that it could be way better than it is now.

[Marcus Impudite]

Meh. I'll give 7th a look if and when it's ever published. 5th Ed comes as close to my ideal system as any edition of Hero ever has, and 6th shortly thereafter went in exactly the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned. If 7th fails to make a favorable impression on me, I'll naturally be sticking with 5th Ed.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Meh. I'll give 7th a look if and when it's ever published. 5th Ed comes as close to my ideal system as any edition of Hero ever has, and 6th shortly thereafter went in exactly the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned. If 7th fails to make a favorable impression on me, I'll naturally be sticking with 5th Ed.

You and me both brotha.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Ditto

[Marrethiel]

2.The system should move toward simplicity. Not simplification that actually makes things more complex (which IS possible to do with the system). The system has a very simple mechanic that should be applied toward everything (attacker value - Defender Value+11 vs Roll on 3d6. Roll d6's of effect - Defense = what happens to target.
 

Actually the one thing I like least about HERO is the dice rolling conventions. I've prefer you roll your skill + 3d6, target rolls their skill +3d6. Highest wins.

15 Pre (+3) + 2 skill ranks is +5. Player rolls 3d6 and adds 5. GM does the same, higest wins. This way the GM doesn't have to reveal skill levels and HIGHER is always better.

Both combat and non combat skills should be treated the same.

 

[Old Man]

in the almost 30 yrs I've played Champions

nobody has just used the straight up CU only

all have made minor or major tweaks to it

 

As a counterexample, in 25 years of playing Champions and Fantasy Hero I think I wrote an adventure form scratch exactly once.  All other sessions were straight out of published Champions or (gag) converted AD&D module.  There might have been a Shadow World game in there somewhere.  We just never had time to run a pure homebrew campaign of any kind, and that's even more true today than it was back then.

[Tasha]

in the almost 30 yrs I've played Champions nobody has just used the straight up CU only. All have made minor or major tweaks to it

 

I don't run any game world straight. I always tweak the stuff that annoy me. I did run Champions New Millennium pretty straight. I did add my own villains, but in that setting that's totally normal.

[Zephrosyne]

God, I can't even remember the last time I used a pregenerated setting.  I will use a default setting for ideas but that's about it.

[Scott Baker]

I'm another one who doesn't run CU straight. Back when Enemies came out (and Enemies II), we would use the characters from those, but always mix in our own villains as well. And unlike Old Man, I can't think of a single published adventure I've run, tweaked or not, for Champions/Hero. I'll use all sorts of materials for ideas and inspiration, including published settings.

[Zephrosyne]

Though I have never ran a campaign using the Champions Universe, I really like reading about it as well as other Hero System settings (e.g. Turakian Age).  I've got a lot of the supplements that have come out for the system over the years, including some old 1st edition stuff.   

[Sam On Maui]

I'll repeat my thought which is to make HERO Basic *truly* HERO Basic. The bare minimum needed to run the game in terms of rules and systems. I like how D&D 5e Basic came out. Just a few good options, all the basics, and if you want more? They'll have the "advanced" books.

 

The bare basics are pretty much stats, skills, and combat. I'd argue that the creation rules for equipment, power, etc , aren't basic. They can be replaced with pre-made stuff. I'd keep HAPS in just to make sure people get the idea, "hey, this doesn't have to be strictly simulationist!"

 

And, where possible, I'd reword how things are done to be easier to understand. Like how to figure out what you need to roll to hit someone. I really dislike the official wording. My group just says, "roll X or less," with x being 11+(total OCC-total DCV). Mentally, it seems easier to mem

[Bodkins Odds]

I'll repeat my thought which is to make HERO Basic *truly* HERO Basic. The bare minimum needed to run the game in terms of rules and systems. I like how D&D 5e Basic came out. Just a few good options, all the basics, and if you want more? They'll have the "advanced" books.

 

The bare basics are pretty much stats, skills, and combat. I'd argue that the creation rules for equipment, power, etc , aren't basic. They can be replaced with pre-made stuff. I'd keep HAPS in just to make sure people get the idea, "hey, this doesn't have to be strictly simulationist!"

 

And, where possible, I'd reword how things are done to be easier to understand. Like how to figure out what you need to roll to hit someone. I really dislike the official wording. My group just says, "roll X or less," with x being 11+(total OCC-total DCV). Mentally, it seems easier to mem

 

I'd say a bit more like the old BD&D line: Include character creation rules, setting specific default combat rules, GM utilities: premade mooks, villains, NPC heroes, vehicles, and equipment, a solo adventure with a premade character for players to learn the basics of play, a group adventure, and an introduction to roleplaying section. Not necessarily in that order. I'd start with the premade character & solo adventure, then the character creation rules, then the combat rules, and then put the GM stuff & group adventure in the back.

[lou_tennant]

I just wanted to say I was surprised to see 7th Ed being discussed already (to any degree).

[IndianaJoe3]

I just wanted to say I was surprised to see 7th Ed being discussed already (to any degree).

 

It's not, at least by anyone at DoJ/Hero Games. This thread is all idle speculation, theorycrafting, and here's-my-complaint-with-the-rules-as-written.

[BlueCloud2k2]

I feel 6th over streamlined what was good with 5e in many cases. Did we really need to combine RSR and Activation Roll and make the language concerning the latter so murky that Activation Roll basically is unusable?

 

OTOH, I feel the changes of NND and AVLD into AVAD was a welcome one.

 

Meh. As I've stated previously, I'll stick with 5e and borrow some elements from 6e (I have mixed feelings on dropping figured characteristics).

[Sam On Maui]

I just wanted to say I was surprised to see 7th Ed being discussed already (to any degree).

On the other hand, it seems to be a tradition with some games. On RPGnet there's been at least one (tongue in cheek) discussion about D&D 6th edition

[Scott Baker]

here's-my-complaint-with-the-rules-as-written.

Mostly this.

[Catseye]

Something that has always bugged me about Hero as it developed is that its almost but not QUITE regular in some of the overlapping powers. 

Force Fields and Armor *aught* to be the same thing, one bought uses end and one not, for instance, but in practice the numbers don't quite work out that way.

 

I'd love to see someone take a step back from all the existing work and ask "how many of these powers are really other powers with advantages/limitations" and then re-calculate the numbers so it really all adds up.