7th Edition thoughts

[Hyper-Man]

Could this be standardized? 

 

Sure.

 

We could probably even get an 'official' Power Vampire writeup in the next APG but it's basic cost and mechanics would probably be something like my example in the same way that the Speed Zone ability from the Ultimate Speedster (5e) was just an 'official' adaptation of the Extra Dimensiona Movement rules to the 'Speedster' special effect.

[Greywind]

To make it easier because right now I don't understand the current 'tools' to make such a power...

 

And you've got an entire board of members here that are more than happy to help your understanding.

[NuSoardGraphite]

One can always make a lower powered version of an iconic character if they wish to play that type of character, but find themselves short on points.  Making a 250-350 point version of Superman is a snap.  It's pretty simple to make a flying Brick with eye lasers and freezing breath.  He'll be very strong and very fast, but he won't be shoving planets out of the way.  Heck, you can even make this guy capable of interstellar flight without too much trouble whatsoever.  The "essence" of Superman would thus be maintained, even if the power level has been scaled back quite a bit.

 

The same could be said of someone like Rogue.  It's well within the point costs to create a 60 active point VPP with a mimic SFX and your low-powered Rogue clone would be able to mimic any characters powers she comes into contact with (one at a time) without much trouble whatsoever.  Add an Aid to the VPP Linked to a Drain (or the old Transfer power if you play pre-6th) and you can push the Active Points in that VPP even further.

 

In my 20+ years of playing HERO, I have never been stuck for how to write something up.  Not even the mythical Time Stop power (Area of Effect Speed Drain or Suppress, Megascale, Personal Immunity, Transdimensional.  Simple) and I'm always puzzled by people who have trouble writing something up in the system (not rookies, but experienced Hero players)

[Zephrosyne]

I don't want to derail this thread but I have to ask; why does that Parasite build have the Limitation, Restrainable for his powers?

[dmjalund]

I don't want to derail this thread but I have to ask; why does that Parasite build have the Limitation, Restrainable for his powers?

my guess is that his drain requires he touches the target with his hand

[Zephrosyne]

Well, by that standard, almost every non-ranged power would take Restrainable, no to mention powers have to have a point of origin by default.  That's almost like taking Restrainable on Running because you have to use your legs or on your Strength because you have to use your hands to punch someone.  Just seems like a non-limiting Limitation.  I'll just leave it at that.  Like I said earlier, I don't want to derail this thread.  I just thought that I was missing something.  Thanks for the reply.

[Greywind]

Wait until Hyper checks in and explains his reasoning.

[Old Man]

It is not difficult.  You can find a half dozen examples of such powers on this very website.  What it is is expensive.  That's not the same as difficult.

Well, Rogue specifically is kind of difficult. She's a huge VPP linked to a huge uncontrollable Drain/Transfer (bought way down on the time scale) and a huge uncontrollable non-EGO-based Telepathy. VPPs are not for rookie players. Working out exactly how the Transfer feeds the VPP, and how the resulting powerset works out, is not for rookies either. And to pay for all that she has enough limitations and complications to make her a near basket case.

 

Hardly a knock against Hero, of course, since I can't think of any other game systems that could even come as close to modeling Rogue as we can. But it's still among the tougher Hero builds to define and play.

[Zephrosyne]

I think Rogue's power is a good example of something that works in media but does not necessarily translate well into a roleplaying game when you try to get it down to the exact details of how it works in the medium in question.  It isn't really all that problematic to build someone who can mimic someone's powers and memories and stun/knock them unconscious in the process.  A little complex perhaps, but by no means overly difficult.  However, it's when it gets all plot device like that it becomes an issue.  Like when she takes a power permanently by holding on too long or the inconsistency with how long she retains the power or if she can or cannot replicate gross physical transformations or whether she takes some sort of backlash and is knocked unconscious herself.  The fact is that comics books are not even consistent with how her power is portrayed.  Comic books can't even consistently portray how much weight characters can lift, which is something that you would think is pretty concrete.  Games have rules and, in my opinion, require consistency that a given medium doesn't (although should in my opinion).  One should just try to approximate the power within reason and be done with it.  I think Hero does an excellent job of providing a framework for doing that.  To be honest, Hero gives you as much detail as you could possibly want and still have something that is playable.

[NuSoardGraphite]

In HERO, rogue is not difficult, she's just very, very expensive. big difference there.

 

Is she difficult for players to fit into a starting point cost? yes, but not impossible. i detailed one such construction earlier in the thread. but just because a power construct is beyond the kin of starting point costs doesnt mean "it can't be done". and again, when making a starting character, they are going to be way less powerful than any established comic book inspiration. players just need to get that reality through their thick skulls and these supposed "problems" with the system will melt away.

 

And as mentioned earlier in the thread, rogue holding on to someone for long enough to take their powers on a semi permanent basis is the equivalent to a radiation accident...an excuse to change their powers or add quite a few built up xp all at once. so rogue adds a bunch of xp and buys ms marvels flight, strength and toughness directly as powers and her mimic power pool construct doesnt change at all...pretty simple really.

[Chris Goodwin]

Variable Power Pool was created specifically to handle things like Batman's utility belt or Rogue's power.  
 
The basic mimic pool would be built something like this: 
 
100  Mimic Powers:  Variable Power Pool (up to 100 Real Points worth of powers; cost 100 points).  
36    Mimic Powers:  Control cost 30 points (for up to 60 Active Points in each mimicked Power).  No Skill Roll Required (+1); Zero Phase To Change (+1).  90 Active Points.  Character Must Touch Target (-1/2); No Choice In How Powers Change (-1/2); Only Powers Target Has (-1/2).  
 
This lets you touch the target and gain their powers; up to 60 Active Points in each ability, up to 100 total Real Points worth of powers.  For Rogue's specific power set, build a touch-based attack (Drain, vs. all Powers and STUN) and rewrite the Variable Power Pool as follows:

100  Rogue's Power Drain:  Variable Power Pool (up to 100 Real Points worth of powers; cost 100 points).  
30    Rogue's Power Drain:  Control cost 30 points (for up to 60 Active Points in each mimicked Power).  No Skill Roll Required (+1); Zero Phase To Change (+1).  90 Active Points.  Character Must Touch Target (-1/2); No Choice In How Powers Change (-1/2); Only Powers Target Has (-1/2); Only Drained Powers (-1/2).

 

The Drain would be quite expensive and would possibly be built with Attack Vs. Alternate Defense (all or nothing; the defense is any kind of barrier including clothing, force fields, rubber gloves, etc.)   

 

(An option, depends on GM approval:  build the real cost portion as a 0-pointer, and build the Drain as a Transfer, with Transferred points going into the real points of the Pool.)

[Stacie.Winters]

Maybe another confusion that some people probably have when they look at those powers listed above is the use of Real Points and Active Points and how each of them are both interrelated yet also different. This I know would come with just learning the game, but for new people it takes a while to learn.

 

Also I wanted to thank everybody for sharing these power examples.

[Chris Goodwin]

Think of it something like extreme couponing.  Active Points is what you've got in your cart; Real Cost is what you shell out from your wallet.  

[Hyper-Man]

I don't want to derail this thread but I have to ask; why does that Parasite build have the Limitation, Restrainable for his powers?

 

 

my guess is that his drain requires he touches the target with his hand

 

 

Well, by that standard, almost every non-ranged power would take Restrainable, no to mention powers have to have a point of origin by default.  That's almost like taking Restrainable on Running because you have to use your legs or on your Strength because you have to use your hands to punch someone.  Just seems like a non-limiting Limitation.  I'll just leave it at that.  Like I said earlier, I don't want to derail this thread.  I just thought that I was missing something.  Thanks for the reply.

 

That's a fair argument.  The posted example was just an outline, not a complete character so final values were never set. I was basing it primarily on the DCAU version of the character who had to touch someone's skin with his own hands.  The Limitation only applied to the first 2 powers in my example (NOT the VPP).  I could see reducing the value of some of the following Limitations I had chose.  The build would also look quite different in 6e since Drain is Ranged by default in that ruleset.

 

from Hero System Rulebook 5er page 306:

 

 

RESTRAINABLE

Value: -½; -¼ for powers Restrainable by means other than Grabs and Entangles

A power with this -½ Limitation is generated by or based upon an area of the body that can be restrained. Examples include Flight defined as having wings or some HKAs defined as having claws. If that area or part of the body is Grabbed, Entangled, or otherwise restrained, the character cannot use the power. When he breaks free of the restraint, or it’s removed, the power functions normally again.

 

 

from Hero System Rulebook 5er page 98:

 

 

Power’s Point Of Origin

The special effects of a power can take any form, as long as it’s clear that the power comes from the character. For instance, when a character buys an Energy Blast, the attack might come from the character’s fingertips, eyes, forehead, or a weapon such as a blaster pistol. Each point of origin has its own benefits and drawbacks (an eyebeam is easy to aim, but it’s hard for a character to use it to free himself if his hands are tied behind his back). Once a character chooses a point of origin for a power, he cannot change it unless he buys the Indirect Advantage (page 260) to let him do so (or, at the GM’s option, if he makes a relevant Power Skill roll).

 

 

from Hero System Rulebook 5er page 121:

 

 

Skin Contact Required (-1): A Mental Power with this Limitation requires the character to establish skin-to-skin contact to make an ECV Attack Roll. Otherwise it functions similarly to Eye Contact Required. A power with this Limitation cannot also take the No Range Limitation. “Skin Contact” means just that — contact between the attacker’s skin and the target’s skin. Anything which gets in the way, even a superhero’s skintight costume, prevents the character from using the power. If a target’s clothing reveals only a portion of his skin, the character must make an Attack Roll (with appropriate Hit Location modifiers) to touch the unclothed area.

 

[Hyper-Man]

Think of it something like extreme couponing.  Active Points is what you've got in your cart; Real Cost is what you shell out from your wallet.  

 

Another good analogy is buying the slightly damaged goods or last year's model. It's still functional but there's something not quite 100% about it.

[Grailknight]

If there is ever a 7th Edition, the book should open with 1-3 short stories across different genres. ( nod to Fusion)  

 

It would give newcomers an introduction to what can be achieved in Hero and can be used as the reference in demonstrating sample powers, characters and combat.

 

Show the shiny cover before the crunchy inside.

[Balabanto]

I think part of the issue is that people think that the system should be able to do ANYTHING. The problem with a system that can do ANYTHING is it can't do everything well.

 

This means that certain characters with high power levels won't be able to be designed or built in lower-powered games. Remember that if you agree to sit down to a GM's table, you have to play characters that are going to make the game fun. Maybe a Rogue type character isn't always the type of character a game needs or wants. If that's the case, and those are the characters you typically prefer playing, you may need to find a different gamemaster that will let you run a little more wild.

 

I run a fairly traditional old school champions game. Heroes should be starting at 9-10 dice, and experienced heroes maybe 11-12. Occasionally, you'll have a few legends with 14. Part of the problem with Hero is differing expectations of what the numbers mean. Ask the GM if you're not sure. Quite frankly, I think that people are starting to ignore the "sweet spot" of the game, which is that 10 to 12 die range. Enough to feel mighty, but not so mighty that all the dice can't fit in your hand.

[Greywind]

If there is ever a 7th Edition, the book should open with 1-3 short stories across different genres. ( nod to Fusion)  

 

It would give newcomers an introduction to what can be achieved in Hero and can be used as the reference in demonstrating sample powers, characters and combat.

 

Show the shiny cover before the crunchy inside.

 

One thing that bothers me in rule books is an excess of fluff.

[bigbywolfe]

I think part of the issue is that people think that the system should be able to do ANYTHING. The problem with a system that can do ANYTHING is it can't do everything well.

 

This means that certain characters with high power levels won't be able to be designed or built in lower-powered games. Remember that if you agree to sit down to a GM's table, you have to play characters that are going to make the game fun. Maybe a Rogue type character isn't always the type of character a game needs or wants. If that's the case, and those are the characters you typically prefer playing, you may need to find a different gamemaster that will let you run a little more wild.

 

I run a fairly traditional old school champions game. Heroes should be starting at 9-10 dice, and experienced heroes maybe 11-12. Occasionally, you'll have a few legends with 14. Part of the problem with Hero is differing expectations of what the numbers mean. Ask the GM if you're not sure. Quite frankly, I think that people are starting to ignore the "sweet spot" of the game, which is that 10 to 12 die range. Enough to feel mighty, but not so mighty that all the dice can't fit in your hand.

And yet many people on this very forum use Hero exclusively for non-supers with less than what you say should be average...

[Old Man]

One thing that bothers me in rule books is an excess of fluff.

One thing that bothers me in rule books is a lack of fluff. If I want to read a dry tech manual I'll stay late at the office.

[Grailknight]

What is needed is a balance between the two.

[Greywind]

I don't have a problem with fluff for flavor. A paragraph here or there from time to time. Fluff is better suited to genre books and settings. 1-3 short stories before you get into the rules is too much.

 

BattleTech has short stories between each different section of the rules, across seven or so rule books. Seriously inflates page count.

[Grailknight]

I was thinking more along the lines of the one to two pagers in the Pathfinder books.

[IndianaJoe3]

Here's an idea: 2 columns, with fiction on the left side, and a game-mechanics description on the right.

[Stacie.Winters]

One thing that bothers me in rule books is an excess of fluff.

 

I haven't seen all that much fluff at all in Hero game books which to me is both a good and bad thing.