7th Edition thoughts

[shuddemell]

Yeah, I think the idea that only "story-telling" systems are concerned with the narrative ludicrous, but I also understand the trend that players want and need more control of the narrative. That said, with action points, I am very stingy handing them out, and typically only give them out for exceptional in character play.

 

Ultimately, if the gm is doing their job, then the narrative will be the most important thing and a cooperative relationship with the players is essential, rather than a competitive one.

[mhd]

Personally, I've always disliked the term "storytelling" as that suggests something rather one-directional, devoid of player agency. Which is what the, erm, "story gamers" are all about.

 

And I don't see anything wrong with putting that down into game mechanics, just like I see nothing wrong into moving detailed combat simulation into game mechanics. You could argue as well that the players could just know how to handle edge cases according to what this represents in the narrative. Don't get me wrong, I'm not too happy with most of the actual implementations, but I'm fine enough with the concept.

 

Also, player control over the story doesn't necessarily imply that the GM is adversarial. I mean, in most campaigns I've played it's a back and forth between GM and players anyway, unless we're talking about straight-forward railroading. In a campaign that's flexible enough (or even sandbox), the influence of the party is quite immense anyways. Adding a few dashes of supporting rules to that never bothered me, e.g. the Luck ability of HERO.

[Stacie.Winters]

The problem with that is two fold. One you really give the PC's no incentive to take any complications. Also you take away the ability to "buy off" complications with XP. I think that the Complication/Disadvantage system works well, is pretty darned internally consistant. I have some minor quibbles with it (I think that dependance is set to be too quick to start damaging the PC)

 

for me there is no incentive whatsoever to actually roleplay them after I acquired them for the points to spend on them to make my character mechanically more powerful...

 

trust me... after playing Fate a few times, after playing some Cortex Plus game sessions, Mutants and Masterminds with their Complication system, and a number of newer games that have come out the last few years... players like seeing their character's lives get Complicated. If they can get some Action Points during the game because their lives got more Complicated and then they can take these Action Points and use them as fuel to make their character's do some really cool actions... players will not only accept it, but look for opportunities to remind the GM about them.

 

The current system has no incentive beyond character creation for anything like this IMO.

 

And if a player chooses not to take any Complications and other players do, that player who doesn't will fall behind the curve as far as gaining Action Points and bonus XP is concerned.

 

It would also be really easy to include rules for players to buy off Complications... all they'd have to do is tell the GM that the bonus XP they'd gain would be put into a special category of XP points meant for just that.

[Stacie.Winters]

Something I haven't seen brought up yet that may be worth discussing is the ratio fans who are GM's vs. Players.  The GM's (new & experienced) are what HERO needs to attract to grow the fanbase.  It doesn't matter how many potential HERO players are out there if there are no GM's willing to use the system to run a game.  It's not just the complexity of making characters, it's the complexity of balancing everything to the scale of the PC's.  All the features that make it easier to create the characters the players want are also potential loopholes that the GM has to consider closing (that's the perception of many at least).  The prep work that a potential NEW HERO GM has to put into running a Champions or Fantasy Hero game just seems staggering when compared to other systems. 

 

For any folks here who didn't already know, I am NOT a GM.  I tried it a few times years ago and I just didn't have the right temperament or skill set for it and the players at the time were spoiled by a great GM so I didn't really get a chance to adjust.  Now I'm just too CDO make it work.  I would love to be that 'guy' who knows the system and helps everyone learn it but folks don't seem to have the patience for that these days.

 

Having a GM focused book on just this topic would be amazing.

 

The Hero System game books does imply quite a bit that the person running the game is an expert Hero System GM because it really doesn't do much as far as how to ease new players into the game and that can be intimidating.

 

I am a GM although I haven't GM'd in a long, LONG time. I had experienced an rather unfortunate agoraphobic time period a couple years ago that wasn't any fun so I had stopped gaming for a long time but I am getting over it and I've always loved Hero System which is why I have bought it and will read the books. I am also one of those quirky people who enjoys reading these books for the sake of reading them and I've always liked text books so... but I am also a little OCD, and it's because of my OCD nature that doing all the heavy front loading stuff makes it rather difficult for me to really, really create a setting for using this game with. It's not as bad as it once was a few years ago, and I am approaching Hero System from a much different perspective now than I had in the past.

 

So wish me luck.

[Hyper-Man]

Another recent thread on RPGnet raised a very good point.  We now live in an age of abundance with regard to Superhero RPG's.  It seems like there's a new one being released every other month!  Maybe it's the recent success of Superhero movies but there is huge fan interest for all things Supers and i'm pretty sure there is a not insignificant number of new players that are picking up a Supers RPG first instead of the 'normal' fantasy one (like D&D or Pathfinder).  Stacie raises a great point - most current HERO books are written from the assumption that GM's are experienced either in HERO itself or Game Mastering itself or both.  That might have made sense 30 years ago when everyone played some version of D&D first and then tried something else when frustrated with its limitations.  That still happens but not nearly as much and far fewer of those who leave D&D or Pathfinder will automatically view HERO as an improvement over what they are leaving behind.

[Tasha]

for me there is no incentive whatsoever to actually roleplay them after I acquired them for the points to spend on them to make my character mechanically more powerful...

 

trust me... after playing Fate a few times, after playing some Cortex Plus game sessions, Mutants and Masterminds with their Complication system, and a number of newer games that have come out the last few years... players like seeing their character's lives get Complicated. If they can get some Action Points during the game because their lives got more Complicated and then they can take these Action Points and use them as fuel to make their character's do some really cool actions... players will not only accept it, but look for opportunities to remind the GM about them.

 

The current system has no incentive beyond character creation for anything like this IMO.

 

And if a player chooses not to take any Complications and other players do, that player who doesn't will fall behind the curve as far as gaining Action Points and bonus XP is concerned.

 

It would also be really easy to include rules for players to buy off Complications... all they'd have to do is tell the GM that the bonus XP they'd gain would be put into a special category of XP points meant for just that.

 

Which is why on one of the previous pages, I suggested that giving Action Points out for using Complications would be a good thing.

 

I would also like to explore using Action Points for "Stunts" ie using powers or combat abilities in ways that aren't normally covered by the rules or would usually make a Player make a skill roll for it to happen.

[BlueCloud2k2]

My thoughts on grabbing new players (spoken from experience)

 

I had one player complain that it was more complicated than AD&D 2nd Ed.

 

It's difficult at best to keep track of what combat maneuvers do what without CONSTANTLY referencing the book.

 

There needs to be a watered down or simplified rule-set for people who want the flavor without the crunch.

 

I've had great success with tweaking the "3d6 > 11+OCV-DCV" to "3d6 + OCV > 10 + DCV." I charted out the roll results and it works out pretty much the same. This helps the "only played DnD/Pathfinder" guys. And it doesn't look like fracking THAC0.

 

And the damned books NEED to be in Black and White. The Yellow and Blue Bull-Crap makes my eyes bleed. Whoever made that choice for color scheme needs to be beaten with a dead fish.

 

The artwork for the cover should be something to grab attention - such as perhaps a FISS (Flying Invulnerable Super-Strength for those who don't read PS238), a Cowboy and Space Marine fighting a Dragon. Well, maybe not a Cowboy. But you get the idea.

 

As far as changes? Haven't messed with 6e much other than to steal a little bit for my 5e gaming. Next game I run I may incorporate the Characteristics and Complications methodologies. But there were some changes in the Advantages Section that didn't need to be made. Such as combining Activation Roll and RSR. Bleck. Some of the changes in the Powers section look good. I love AVAD as opposed to AVLD and NND. The AoE change I have mixed feelings on.

 

But past those things I've noticed, I can't really comment on too much I'd like to see changed.

 

As far as book I'd like to see (as far as CHAMPIONS goes), along with what I'd realistically pay:

 

HERO Complete (All of the Character Generation and Combat Rules) for both Crunch and Flavor $50-60

HERO Simplified (Most of the Character Generation rules, and enough of the Combat rules to play without all the extras) $20-40 tops

CHAMPIONS Source Book and Campaign Setting (The basic Campaign Setting stuff and most of what you need to run a Champs Game) $25-40

CHAMPIONS Expanded (Addional rules for a Champions campaign, as well as more detailed background info for the Campaign Setting; Possibly a Random Character Generator/Package Deals for quick character generation) $20-30

Book of Heroes and a Book of Villains (Write-ups for Champions games) $25-30 (or smaller books for $10-15)

Book of Agents (Write-ups for Generic troops and Equipment used by the following types of Agencies: Paramilitary/Terrorist Cells (Warlord/Dr. Destroyer/VIPER/etc), Occult (DEMON), and possibly one more. Personally I like the idea of using the same basic package for agents and just changing the equipment list) $30-40

Book of Powers (Power Builds) $30-40

[shuddemell]

So, with all of the thoughts about changes to Hero, it does remind of one thing that is great about Hero, separate and apart from whichever particular edition you might prefer. That is the Hero community. Here we have overall one of the most helpful groups of players, gms and grognards of any board I have seen. Perhaps, that should factor in to how we promote and teach Hero. If it were more prominent and were more obvious to the newbies, perhaps they would feel less lost with Hero. I know me personally, I don't get the opportunity to run Hero much anymore (or play for that matter), but I certainly would be glad to help any person that needs character building, world building, or rules help at many point, and I have seen virtually everyone on this board do the same. Maybe if the newbies were more aware of this support system it might go a long way into popularizing Hero. Most of the other boards are downright hostile (especially to Hero) and getting useful help is much more difficult. This is one of the best things about Hero I have discovered in recent memory, the great, helpful and generally plain nice people involved with the system. We all have questions or conundrums at one time or another, and having a place to clarify and refine ideas is invaluable.
 

So, Stacie, not only do I wish you the greatest luck possible, I would be willing to help in any way I can, as are so many people on this board, and maybe just maybe that is our true super power.

[IndianaJoe3]

HERO Complete (All of the Character Generation and Combat Rules) for both Crunch and Flavor $50-60

HERO Simplified (Most of the Character Generation rules, and enough of the Combat rules to play without all the extras) $20-40 tops

CHAMPIONS Source Book and Campaign Setting (The basic Campaign Setting stuff and most of what you need to run a Champs Game) $25-40

CHAMPIONS Expanded (Addional rules for a Champions campaign, as well as more detailed background info for the Campaign Setting; Possibly a Random Character Generator/Package Deals for quick character generation) $20-30

Book of Heroes and a Book of Villains (Write-ups for Champions games) $25-30 (or smaller books for $10-15)

Book of Agents (Write-ups for Generic troops and Equipment used by the following types of Agencies: Paramilitary/Terrorist Cells (Warlord/Dr. Destroyer/VIPER/etc), Occult (DEMON), and possibly one more. Personally I like the idea of using the same basic package for agents and just changing the equipment list) $30-40

Book of Powers (Power Builds) $30-40

 

Holy overlapping product lines, Batman! That's a lot of different stuff to produce and sell, and not much differentiation between some of it. I'd break it down a little differently.

 

HERO Core: All of the non-optional rules (kind of like Champions Complete without the genre information). Definitely under $40, maybe as low as $30.

HERO Advanced Guide: All the optional rules, including the stuff from the APGs and the Ultimate series. There should also be a section on how to balance a game. Same price as the core book.

<Genre Name> Complete: All of the core rules, appropriate optional rules, and an, "official" mini-setting. $40 (same as CC and FHC).

 

Supplemental material for each genre would probably break down differently. Champions would be a good fit for a, "magazine" style, with each edition having a master villain, an organization, a few solos, and some sample powers. Fantasy Hero supplements would have more setting info, locations, spells, and monsters for the official setting.

 

The more I think about it, the Patreon model might work really well for supplemental material.

[mhd]

Another recent thread on RPGnet raised a very good point.  We now live in an age of abundance with regard to Superhero RPG's.

And strangely enough most of them are four color/golden age.

[Greywind]

for me there is no incentive whatsoever to actually roleplay them after I acquired them for the points to spend on them to make my character mechanically more powerful...

 

trust me... after playing Fate a few times, after playing some Cortex Plus game sessions, Mutants and Masterminds with their Complication system, and a number of newer games that have come out the last few years... players like seeing their character's lives get Complicated. If they can get some Action Points during the game because their lives got more Complicated and then they can take these Action Points and use them as fuel to make their character's do some really cool actions... players will not only accept it, but look for opportunities to remind the GM about them.

 

The current system has no incentive beyond character creation for anything like this IMO.

 

And if a player chooses not to take any Complications and other players do, that player who doesn't will fall behind the curve as far as gaining Action Points and bonus XP is concerned.

 

It would also be really easy to include rules for players to buy off Complications... all they'd have to do is tell the GM that the bonus XP they'd gain would be put into a special category of XP points meant for just that.

 

If you take a Hunted you don't feel a sense of rivalry when that Hunted puts in an appearance? You take the complications just to make the character more mechanically powerful?

 

I've never seen players require a reason to get their characters to do some really cool actions. We had one character that would always do an acrobatics check before doing something. He ended up with the catch-phrase of "...And look cool doing it." And it worked really well. And one of the funniest moments with that character was when this Acro check critically failed. Flubbed flip, which led to him not getting his attack in, which led to another character telling him that "he looked cool doing it."

 

The incentive is the game and group experience.

 

A player shouldn't fall behind the curve simply because s/he chose not to take Complications. At this point, I see what you're suggesting as a way to deliberately be unfair towards that player. They shouldn't be docked XP for playing just as much and just as well as everyone else. The only thing that they are really lacking without Complications are the means to have a story that centers around them.

 

Why buy off the Complications? Granted the means are already there; spend XP, reduce or eliminate the points in the Complication.

 

Rather, over the course of the game, have some of the Complications change to something else to reflect changes in the character. This is covered in a lot of materials for Hero. The Ninja is Hunted by another Clan/horde of weaker ninjas. As the game progresses, that horde changes to "a lot", to "some", to "a few". The points don't change in the Complication, but the other ninjas grow in power and skill in their own right.

 

I had one character running around in my world that had a nemesis. Every time they ran into each other, a pretty epic brawl broke out, but for one reason or another, neither one was able to get a decisive victory that would lead to either prison for the villain or death for the hero. When if finally happened and the hero beat the villain, it was in a bathroom. If you've seen Casino Royale, it actually ended up a lot like that. Only the hero also succumbed to his wounds and another character took credit for defeating the nemesis.

[Stacie.Winters]

Holy overlapping product lines, Batman! That's a lot of different stuff to produce and sell, and not much differentiation between some of it. I'd break it down a little differently.

 

HERO Core: All of the non-optional rules (kind of like Champions Complete without the genre information). Definitely under $40, maybe as low as $30.

HERO Advanced Guide: All the optional rules, including the stuff from the APGs and the Ultimate series. There should also be a section on how to balance a game. Same price as the core book.

<Genre Name> Complete: All of the core rules, appropriate optional rules, and an, "official" mini-setting. $40 (same as CC and FHC).

 

Supplemental material for each genre would probably break down differently. Champions would be a good fit for a, "magazine" style, with each edition having a master villain, an organization, a few solos, and some sample powers. Fantasy Hero supplements would have more setting info, locations, spells, and monsters for the official setting.

 

The more I think about it, the Patreon model might work really well for supplemental material.

 

Take the idea of HERO Core and mix with a good mixed genre campaign setting and then there ya go. Focus the game on that setting, like how they did Monster Hunters International, which I just discovered here on the store. Never heard of this game before until the other day. Why isn't this game advertised more, or talked about in other game forums?

 

Of course, my idea of this game would have all the available means of making characters specifically for the setting and all the basic game rules that must be needed and then in a separate sourcebook have all the super detailed power creation rules in a book that could be called The Ultimate HERO Power Creation Toolkit. But I'd make it the second book in a new game line, not the first... and I wouldn't release the first book in a new edition game line until both books were ready to be released.

 

The third book I'd have in a new game line would be a Game Masters Guide to the HERO System.

 

So...

 

Book One: (Insert name of Setting) subtitled with HERO Core 7

Book Two: The Ultimate HERO Power Creation Toolkit - THE book on making Powers and Character Customization, all the crunch any player of HERO would ever need.

Book Three: Game Masters Guide to the HERO System - this book would have a lot of advanced rules, different ways to turn the Hero system to different genre's, the rules for how to run the game with different power levels, and a absolute newbie guide to Hero System on both running the game and how to teach the game to new players.

Book Four: The Ultimate Players Guide to HERO - let's face it... this game can use all the help in the world on how to break down the game for players to understand... this could be that newbie's guide strictly written for players and most of it can be fluff, suggestions, advice and guidelines.

 

Then after that I'd want to have at least two books to support the core setting with -

Setting Guide Book One: (Setting Name) Players Guide - a guide of the setting of the most common knowledge that the typical adventurer of the setting would know, with new player packages, more examples of using the Power Creation Toolkit in the setting that is more customized for the setting.

Setting Guide Book Two: (Setting Name) GM Guide - a more detailed guide of the behind the scenes of the setting, with a lot of the secrets and information for the GM to use as well as a broad kingdom by kingdom guide of monsters and key npcs.

 

And I think I'd want to go this route with any future campaign settings developed for the game using a three book format, with the first book being a complete game in and of its own followed by two Setting Guide book, one a players guide and the other a GM guide.

 

Along with that we could also use a lot of the 5th edition guide books for setting neutral books -

The HERO World Builder's Guide

The Ultimate Guide to HEROic Combat

 

 

Things like that.

[steriaca]

Their is one big problem with everyones hypothesis of a 7th edition...the big green "$". Their has been many solutions tried in the past.

1: Partnership. It worked rather well in the "ICE age", but didn't do quite so well in the "Fusion era". The downside for this is, it ends.

2: Sell IP. This is how Hero got the cash for 5ed/6ed. The problem is, they lose control over the IP. Also, they sold their most valuable IP, Champions (and tossed in Dark Champions in to boot). So what other IP do they own?

3: Welcome to Kickstarter. This is their current way to earn money. By sumition and voting by cash, they can gage what the public wants...except only those with the cash to spend will get what intrests them. And, frankly, there may be great rpg supliments unmade simply by being unfunded.

There is no solution I can see. It will either be funded, or not. Hero will survive, or not. Only the future will tell. (its not like I can go to a gaming shop and ask for Hero by name...in Milwaukee there is now only Game Universe over at highway 100, and they went from rpgs and ccgs to board and card games).

[BlueCloud2k2]

Their is one big problem with everyones hypothesis of a 7th edition...the big green "$". Their has been many solutions tried in the past.

1: Partnership. It worked rather well in the "ICE age", but didn't do quite so well in the "Fusion era". The downside for this is, it ends.

2: Sell IP. This is how Hero got the cash for 5ed/6ed. The problem is, they lose control over the IP. Also, they sold their most valuable IP, Champions (and tossed in Dark Champions in to boot). So what other IP do they own?

3: Welcome to Kickstarter. This is their current way to earn money. By sumition and voting by cash, they can gage what the public wants...except only those with the cash to spend will get what intrests them. And, frankly, there may be great rpg supliments unmade simply by being unfunded.

There is no solution I can see. It will either be funded, or not. Hero will survive, or not. Only the future will tell. (its not like I can go to a gaming shop and ask for Hero by name...in Milwaukee there is now only Game Universe over at highway 100, and they went from rpgs and ccgs to board and card games).

 

I think you just named HERO's one weakness - not many gaming stores carry the product line.

 

I personally plan on doing so when I get my shop opened up next spring. As well has hosting monthly one-shot games to show off what can be done with the rule set.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think you just named HERO's one weakness - not many gaming stores carry the product line.

 

I personally plan on doing so when I get my shop opened up next spring. As well has hosting monthly one-shot games to show off what can be done with the rule set.

Wow. what a way to support the hobby. The very best of luck with that endeavor.

[Stacie.Winters]

Their is one big problem with everyones hypothesis of a 7th edition...the big green "$". Their has been many solutions tried in the past.

1: Partnership. It worked rather well in the "ICE age", but didn't do quite so well in the "Fusion era". The downside for this is, it ends.

2: Sell IP. This is how Hero got the cash for 5ed/6ed. The problem is, they lose control over the IP. Also, they sold their most valuable IP, Champions (and tossed in Dark Champions in to boot). So what other IP do they own?

3: Welcome to Kickstarter. This is their current way to earn money. By sumition and voting by cash, they can gage what the public wants...except only those with the cash to spend will get what intrests them. And, frankly, there may be great rpg supliments unmade simply by being unfunded.

There is no solution I can see. It will either be funded, or not. Hero will survive, or not. Only the future will tell. (its not like I can go to a gaming shop and ask for Hero by name...in Milwaukee there is now only Game Universe over at highway 100, and they went from rpgs and ccgs to board and card games).

 

All so true... brings much sadness.

 

Regarding the IP... this is why I am always going to be now suggesting that they stop focusing on the Champions license and replace it with a new campaign setting to represent it's Core game.

 

I nearly missed the Fantasy Hero Complete kickstarter. I never saw an advertisement about it... never saw it mentioned on any other rpg website... until it was practically over and this is a combination of both herogames not getting the word out and the fans of the game not spreading the word about it. Heck, I posted the link to the kickstarter on it's last two days on rpg.net just letting people know that this game existed on kickstarter. If they would have somebody post on all the different rpg websites like enworld.org and rpg.net when their games hit kickstarter that'd be a big help but this never did happen. Now I don't even know if I will be able to get a copy of the game book because the company might only print enough copies of the book for those who backed it. I don't know though.

[megaplayboy]

Honestly, one could create an unofficial 7th edition, provided it was 1)labeled as such, 2) recognized as such and 3)distributed freely at no cost. Best case scenario, it's a "market test" for a more official 7th edition, and if successful a deal can be struck to revamp and launch it as official. Hero might not be crazy about letting one post or mention it here, but if you put it on your own site and make no money off it ever, it's pretty hard to justify sending a Cease & Desist letter over what would essentially be "house rules" posted on someone's web site for free.

[mhd]

*coughcoughsiembiedacough*

[Tasha]

*coughcoughsiembiedacough*

I know that Palladium tells it's players to not post stuff to fan sites etc, but I really have to wonder if his C&D's are really worth the paper they are written on. There's still a lot of stuff that fans can do with the Fair Use laws. I guess that's why I still consider m Siembieda the biggest IP troll in RPGs.

[Stacie.Winters]

I know that Palladium tells it's players to not post stuff to fan sites etc, but I really have to wonder if his C&D's are really worth the paper they are written on. There's still a lot of stuff that fans can do with the Fair Use laws. I guess that's why I still consider m Siembieda the biggest IP troll in RPGs.

 

Agreed.

 

The man is really missing out on a lot of golden opportunities that would really help is company out if we were to license his worlds out so other people/companies could write rpg materials for them. I mean, how freaking cool would it be to have a real Rifts HERO game? I think that'd be really awesome, and because it'd be licensed than he'd be making money off the sells too.

[megaplayboy]

I recognize it's akin to threading a needle, but I think one can be respectful of the IP rights of a for-profit entity while exhibiting a re-interpretation of that IP gratis.

[mhd]

I know that Palladium tells it's players to not post stuff to fan sites etc, but I really have to wonder if his C&D's are really worth the paper they are written on.

That's probably true for a lot of C&D lettters. But who wants to fight this legally for some minor stuff they put up in their spare time, material that's probably been made for their group in the first place and only published for a bit of rep and to be nice. Lawyering up is a pretty good scare tactic nowadays... Heck, IP law scares other lawyers.

 

But legal matters aside, I'm not sure that anyone publishing his house rules would really qualify as an "unofficial 7th edition" in most people's eyes. Unless we're talking about actual (former?) HERO designers. Otherwise, you're being a bit pretentious...

 

Still, I wouldn't be sure about actually including core material, even when you're paraphrasing it. Sure, rules can't be copyrighted, but do you really want to argue with legal professionals about whether you're infringing on just the "presentation" of them? Not saying that the nice people running this site would sue you, of course

 

One reason why I'd really like a CC/OGL game in the vein of GURPS/HERO/EABA. I really liked the proliferation of different Fuzion rulesets for all kinds of scenarios (Sengoku was quite a bit more complex than Usagi Yojimbo, as it probably should be), although if I'm not mistaken that was more a culture issue than a legal one (i.e. Fuzion wasn't any more "libre" than HERO), right?

[Chris Goodwin]

Gold Rush Games' Action system (more or less based on Fuzion) is OGL.  

[shuddemell]

Honestly, one could create an unofficial 7th edition, provided it was 1)labeled as such, 2) recognized as such and 3)distributed freely at no cost. Best case scenario, it's a "market test" for a more official 7th edition, and if successful a deal can be struck to revamp and launch it as official. Hero might not be crazy about letting one post or mention it here, but if you put it on your own site and make no money off it ever, it's pretty hard to justify sending a Cease & Desist letter over what would essentially be "house rules" posted on someone's web site for free.

I think this is far afield and the suggestion is a little bit beyond anything I would ever suggest doing, it steps on a lot of toes and is essentially defecating where one dines.... careful with this kind of thing.

[megaplayboy]

I think my larger, underlying point is, economics and lack of incentives for the established purveyors is not an absolute bar to further experimentation and innovation.