7th Edition thoughts

[Stacie.Winters]

I personally have always felt that anything that falls into the "Optional" Rules category should be separated into the Game Masters section of the rulebook and also distinguished by separate genre's that they would best fit into and not part of the main core rules.

 

There are a ton of things that they could do with a 7th Edition that they wouldn't have to change much at all but just do a huge reorganization and change the image of the game for the better while keeping it practically the same game as it is now.

[mhd]

That would be a horrible mess, with constant referencing of other chapters if you need to look something up. If they're an alternative interpretation or "switch", then they should be right where the rules are that they add to/replace, if they're independent additions they still should be in the same chapter. For ease of reference, a check list in the GM section surely doesn't hurt.

 

What you see quite often in combat systems are options that go together. If so, then reorganizing that into different chapters might be possible. Both GURPS and EABA have basic and advanced combat chapters. Wouldn't be a bad idea for HERO, too. But then you'll get massive arguments about what constitutes "basic".

 

I always liked Fuzions attempt of being modular. Although preferably not with that horribly dated faux-3D layout.

[Stacie.Winters]

That's another good idea with the Basic and Advanced Rules separated, which is kinda what I was saying but your way is a different way to organize it.

 

One way to look at the difference between 'Basic' and 'Advanced' is all the basic rules are just that... they are the basic foundation for which all the other more advanced rules would be based on. The basic combat resolution would be the basic rules on hitting, doing basic damage and the different kind of damage like normal attacks and killing attacks and how damage is applied... the basics of having a base OCV and DCV without Martial Arts and all the different martial arts maneuvers modifying them (Martial Arts is an example of an advanced rule IMO), as well as how the different martial arts maneuvers work with the STR Characteristic (which provides all characters with a base hand to hand damage ability). Other Advanced rules would include Hit Location, Bleeding, Knockback and Knockdown, things like that.

 

The Basic Rules for combat would be pretty easy and who knows... maybe the Speed Chart wouldn't even be needed with that. In fact, it's probably possible to design it where the entire Speed Characteristic would be a Advanced Rule and for the Basic rules the game could be like ... Every Turn you get 3 actions, than after the third action there is a Recovery Phase, than three more actions, Recovery Phase, etc, etc. Initiative could be Dex based... roll dice and apply Dexterity. With these basic rules there could be more basic power/talent options also. One Talent could be a Action boost where it's like spend 20 points to go 4x per turn instead of 3x and 40 points to go 5x instead of 3x per action turn and the Recovery phase would still happen at the end of the combat turn after everyone has taken their actions.

 

For this type of action per turn system it could also be easier for the GM because it could help determine who's simply more powerful/capable as a character by character type. Mooks and minions could get one action per turn, Mid level monsters and NPCs maybe get 2 per turn, and Main Villains maybe 3 or 4 per turn before the Recovery Phase.

 

These are obviously hypothetical examples, but the Speed Chart is one example of the game that is obviously an advanced rule. You simplify that, you simplify the entire combat structure.

 

Another idea of separating a Basic and Advanced rules idea is the different type of Damage in the game... you have Normal Damage, and Killing Attacks that have the Stun multiplier. Obviously Basic Rules would be just Normal Damage and no Killing Attacks. The entire category fo Killing Damage would be put in the Advanced Rules. This could make it easier for new players to get into the game learning with just the normal damage first before having to deal with Killing damage, Stun multipliers, and having to deal with the greater impact of BODY being more important of a Characteristic now.

 

Here's a separate idea...

 

What about changing the system from roll under to roll higher... OR at least for combat, changing it to a simple opposed roll system ~

Player A attacks with an OCV of 8, player B defends with a DCV of 6, both roll dice, add their CV and whoever rolls higher wins.

 

Instead of dealing with a equation that has to be redone with every separate target... the Attack Roll now is 11 + OCV - roll of 3d6 = DCV can hit. Because to me that process is a bit cumbersome. Then when you put in all the other options from martial art maneuvers, powers, etc, etc, it can be a pain sometimes. A simple opposed roll mechanism with whomever rolling higher wins could simplify it a lot.

[Nolgroth]

How about this

4 Flashlight:  +4 PER with Sight Group, Area Of Effect (4m Cone Explosion; +1/4) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Usable By Other (-1/4), Grantor can take back power at any time, Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Recipient must remain close to Grantor, 8 Continuing Fuel Charges lasting 1 Hour each (-0)

 

so the light is strongest with a meter of the light and is -1 per meter after that. +4 because that's the modifier for night per.

 

I wrote up a lantern with almost the exact same stats. The Images thing was always such a kludge for me.

[Hyper-Man]

Here's an extremely relevant thread on HERO from RPGnet:

What has kept many of you from playing/getting into HERO System?

[megaplayboy]

Hmm. It seems like the reasons in that rpgnet thread boil down to:

1) Too complex to learn

2) Too long and complex to build PCs

3) Combat takes too long and is too complicated

4) Perceived lack of granularity at the "human/heroic" level

5) some people don't like some specific mechanic, like the SPD chart, rolling low rather than high, et al.

6) They just want a game that does one genre or style really well, not every genre and style

7) Lack of interest in a "simulationist", "crunch" style RPG, with preference for a narrativist, rules-light RPG

8) Too expensive and cumbersome to get up to speed on both the current rules and/or the setting

9) Perception it's for superhero genre mainly and they're not really into superheroes

10)Belief that a previous edition(3rd/4th/5th) was better or ideal and current is too much added complexity and little added fun

 

My first conclusion, based on the feedback here and that thread is that if there were to be a new edition of Hero:

1. It would have to be radically different--shorter, easier to learn, easier to build PCs, more granular at the heroic level, ditching the speed chart and clearly designed to simulate heroic level characters equally as well as superheroic or even godlike characters

2. None of the authors of the previous editions of the book should be involved in rewriting the rules--it should be someone with a completely fresh perspective who has no personal stake in what has been written previously.

 

I realize that both of those points are flamebait, but I think the system has lost a tremendous amount of momentum and popularity over the years, and a system with a diminishing player base is a dying one. All of the previous editions still exist in both written and electronic form somewhere, so just as with the people who preferred a previous edition to 5th or 6th, they can always stick with the existing one. But I think it's possible to "thread the needle" here and capture most of the flexibility of Hero into a more concise and more broadly accessible form.

[Tasha]

From what I saw of Fuzion. I would be ok with Mike Pondsmith writing a new edition of Hero. I know that he's a huge fan. He had a very well regarded Champions game going on for years here in the Bay Area. He's not afraid to try new things and he does see things that other authors didn't. I doubt that the current ownership or the loudest parts of the fanbase would allow any author to make the changes the system would need to become a better game.

 

IMHO he should write a new version of the Champions Universe. He has a talent for writing game supplements that make you want to play.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Yes, I understand that they are optional rules, but the new version, Champions Complete, doesn't list them as optional rules. Optional rules should always be separated out under a section titled "Optional Rules." Most new gamers tend to play the ball where it lies. Whatever's written in the book without a clear heading over it that says "Optional Rules", they use.

 

Plus, I have a secret reason for loathing things like Heroic Action Points and Damage Negation (Especially when more than one PC has damage negation). Hero System Combat takes a long, long time. It doesn't need to take longer.

Hero combat doesnt really take any longer than other rpgs if you play it fast and loose. as long as your players know what they want to do without deliberation and your gm knows his/her stuff, hero combat can be quite fast.

[NuSoardGraphite]

From what I saw of Fuzion. I would be ok with Mike Pondsmith writing a new edition of Hero. I know that he's a huge fan. He had a very well regarded Champions game going on for years here in the Bay Area. He's not afraid to try new things and he does see things that other authors didn't. I doubt that the current ownership or the loudest parts of the fanbase would allow any author to make the changes the system would need to become a better game.

 

IMHO he should write a new version of the Champions Universe. He has a talent for writing game supplements that make you want to play.

Oh dear god, no.

 

I like interlock. in fact, it is my second favorite game system after hero, but i never want to see something lik fuzion again. take everything that is good from the two best systems on the market....discard them, then try to force the rest to work together as a system? NO THANK YOU!

[Greywind]

...would allow any author to make the changes the system would need to become a better game.

"A better game" exists solely in the realm of opinion.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Oh dear god, no.

I like interlock. in fact, it is my second favorite game system after hero, but i never want to see something lik fuzion again. take everything that is good from the two best systems on the market....discard them, then try to force the rest to work together as a system? NO THANK YOU!

Although on second read, that's not a bad idea. not have mr. pondsmith change the system at all, just write up a new version of the champions universe. i would be interested in seeing what that would be like. but i do think he's busy with cyberpunk 2077 right now.

[shuddemell]

Hmm. It seems like the reasons in that rpgnet thread boil down to:

1) Too complex to learn

2) Too long and complex to build PCs

3) Combat takes too long and is too complicated

4) Perceived lack of granularity at the "human/heroic" level

5) some people don't like some specific mechanic, like the SPD chart, rolling low rather than high, et al.

6) They just want a game that does one genre or style really well, not every genre and style

7) Lack of interest in a "simulationist", "crunch" style RPG, with preference for a narrativist, rules-light RPG

8) Too expensive and cumbersome to get up to speed on both the current rules and/or the setting

9) Perception it's for superhero genre mainly and they're not really into superheroes

10)Belief that a previous edition(3rd/4th/5th) was better or ideal and current is too much added complexity and little added fun

 

My first conclusion, based on the feedback here and that thread is that if there were to be a new edition of Hero:

1. It would have to be radically different--shorter, easier to learn, easier to build PCs, more granular at the heroic level, ditching the speed chart and clearly designed to simulate heroic level characters equally as well as superheroic or even godlike characters

2. None of the authors of the previous editions of the book should be involved in rewriting the rules--it should be someone with a completely fresh perspective who has no personal stake in what has been written previously.

 

I realize that both of those points are flamebait, but I think the system has lost a tremendous amount of momentum and popularity over the years, and a system with a diminishing player base is a dying one. All of the previous editions still exist in both written and electronic form somewhere, so just as with the people who preferred a previous edition to 5th or 6th, they can always stick with the existing one. But I think it's possible to "thread the needle" here and capture most of the flexibility of Hero into a more concise and more broadly accessible form.

Well, these are certainly the bulk of the arguments I have heard concerning Hero, however if all of those were addressed, it would hardly be Hero anymore, at least by my reckoning. Personally, the game that would come from this, I wouldn't want to GM, or likely even play. To appease everyone, you would hardly please anyone. Just the way it goes, but I hardly think turning the game into something completely different would "save" Hero, maybe it would save the financial entity and company, but the game system as I see it would be kaput. This approach is not only throwing out the baby with the bath water, but hitting it with the tub to boot.

[megaplayboy]

Another valid perspective, but then it begs the question: how much "bath water" can be thrown out while keeping the "baby"?"

 

For example, could the SPD chart be done away with and a few other changes implemented to speed up combat, and the system still largely recognizable as Hero System?

 

Could stats be revamped such that every single point of a stat is mechanically meaningful, and the system still largely recognizable as Hero System?

 

Could the dozens of powers be concatenated into a shorter list based on basic effects/mechanics--Attack/Damage, Move, Sense, Defense, Adjust, Alter Self, Alter Other, et al?

 

Do the rules need to be 800(6th), 600(5th Revised) or even 214(4th Edition) pages in order to qualify as Hero System? Could the basic rules be 50-100 pages and still be Hero?

[shuddemell]

Obviously, that would be a subjective measure. I mean for some, a good portion could go, and some not. My thoughts on this issue have come to the point that I really don't think that the type of game Hero is will appeal to many neophyte gamers, for a variety of reasons. The main issue, from my perspective as a gaming curmudgeon, that the new crowd wants it easy and spoon fed to them to play. If that satisfies them great, but I sincerely doubt Hero as we know it will ever fit the bill. God forbid they have to do math or read more than a page or two to play. The fast-food media culture have changed expectations of entertainment a lot since I began gaming in the 70's. We were willing to work for our fun, and though there are still some that are, for the most part, everybody seems to want everything pre-canned. It explains (to me at least) to a large degree why Pathfinder started kicking D&D. The adventure paths were a pre-canned path to 10-12th level bad-assery which didn't exist when I began. I mean, my favorite AD&D character go to 13th level eventually, but only after about 6-7 years of consistent play every other weekend, and we all worked hard for it, especially the DM. Now they just follow the numbers and viola! It is the difference between paint by numbers and actually learning to paint... worlds of difference, but the superficial gloss appeals to many. The granularity issue on the other hand is easy to fix without really "breaking" either the rules or the spirit of Hero, but it would involve more rules and they are too complicated by the neophytes standard already... You can't please everyone...

[Ragitsu]

I don't trust revisions of RPG systems in this day and age.

[Tasha]

Oh dear god, no.

 

I like interlock. in fact, it is my second favorite game system after hero, but i never want to see something lik fuzion again. take everything that is good from the two best systems on the market....discard them, then try to force the rest to work together as a system? NO THANK YOU!

Fuzion wasn't just him. The idea wouldn't be to make another fuzion, but another Hero System that boils the core concepts down to something easier.

 

Of course I see far more similarity between Hero and Fuzion than differences. In many ways the system just pointed out things that were already printed in the back of 4e Hero. The fact that if you boil the system down to the bonus to a die roll, it then doesn't matter what kind of dice you use to make skill rolls and other similar rolls. ignoring the addon systems Fuzion was very much like hero. Add in the Speed Chart and SPD stat and you get 90% there. The Superpower plugin was incomplete and that sucks. They tried something with Hits and Killing attacks that didn't quite work, but I think they were on the right track. Having more dice to roll allows for more granularity for the system. Something that Heroic Games are missing.

 

But the idea of plug ins was a powerful one. It would be very cool to have genre books like Justice Inc. That include the Core Rules, Skills, and then what Talents, Perks, equipment that are needed for that genre. You include the "Pulp Plugin" that includes the weird abilities you need for Pulp adventuring. Like the Psychic abilities from JI.

 

A PDF could be available that shows how the Talents were built using the powers from the complete rulebook. With abilities pregenned and bought from the list the system can start to move away from it's superheroic feel.

[bigbywolfe]

Another valid perspective, but then it begs the question: how much "bath water" can be thrown out while keeping the "baby"?"

 

For example, could the SPD chart be done away with and a few other changes implemented to speed up combat, and the system still largely recognizable as Hero System?

 

Could stats be revamped such that every single point of a stat is mechanically meaningful, and the system still largely recognizable as Hero System?

 

Could the dozens of powers be concatenated into a shorter list based on basic effects/mechanics--Attack/Damage, Move, Sense, Defense, Adjust, Alter Self, Alter Other, et al?

 

Do the rules need to be 800(6th), 600(5th Revised) or even 214(4th Edition) pages in order to qualify as Hero System? Could the basic rules be 50-100 pages and still be Hero?

This has been discussed before, but it doesn't actually simplify the game or make it more user friendly.  Several suggested methods proved to actually make it more complicated to build everything.

[Tasha]

Obviously, that would be a subjective measure. I mean for some, a good portion could go, and some not. My thoughts on this issue have come to the point that I really don't think that the type of game Hero is will appeal to many neophyte gamers, for a variety of reasons. The main issue, from my perspective as a gaming curmudgeon, that the new crowd wants it easy and spoon fed to them to play. If that satisfies them great, but I sincerely doubt Hero as we know it will ever fit the bill. God forbid they have to do math or read more than a page or two to play. The fast-food media culture have changed expectations of entertainment a lot since I began gaming in the 70's. We were willing to work for our fun, and though there are still some that are, for the most part, everybody seems to want everything pre-canned. It explains (to me at least) to a large degree why Pathfinder started kicking D&D. The adventure paths were a pre-canned path to 10-12th level bad-assery which didn't exist when I began. I mean, my favorite AD&D character go to 13th level eventually, but only after about 6-7 years of consistent play every other weekend, and we all worked hard for it, especially the DM. Now they just follow the numbers and viola! It is the difference between paint by numbers and actually learning to paint... worlds of difference, but the superficial gloss appeals to many. The granularity issue on the other hand is easy to fix without really "breaking" either the rules or the spirit of Hero, but it would involve more rules and they are too complicated by the neophytes standard already... You can't please everyone...

 

I hear this from the Grognards, but I actually see that modern gamers are willing to go through 40+ books in Pathfinder to find a particular build or special magic item. Hero's problem is that it's so open that it's like C++, you buy the language, but get no programs that you can compile for yourself. SJG got one thing right with GURPS. People would rather buy a book and choose from a menu of options. Pathfinder and D&D gamers buy magic items and make and sell magic items all of the time. So they ARE willing to do basic math. They are willing to work within a toolbox to build cool stuff if there are enough examples so they can pick and choose WHAT They are going to customize. I see players all of the time making custom magic items and also now custom Races using Pathfinder's Race builder.

[Tasha]

Another valid perspective, but then it begs the question: how much "bath water" can be thrown out while keeping the "baby"?"

 

For example, could the SPD chart be done away with and a few other changes implemented to speed up combat, and the system still largely recognizable as Hero System?

 

Could stats be revamped such that every single point of a stat is mechanically meaningful, and the system still largely recognizable as Hero System?

 

Could the dozens of powers be concatenated into a shorter list based on basic effects/mechanics--Attack/Damage, Move, Sense, Defense, Adjust, Alter Self, Alter Other, et al?

 

Do the rules need to be 800(6th), 600(5th Revised) or even 214(4th Edition) pages in order to qualify as Hero System? Could the basic rules be 50-100 pages and still be Hero?

The basic rules can be less than a Hundred(100) pages and still be Hero. Look at Justice Inc, it's 96 pages including articles on writing up Vampires, Werewolves and other monsters. What is missing from JI is the Superheroic Power section. Otherwise it's got pretty much everything that Champions Complete has minus Genre book (JI Campaign book is 80pgs).

 

Simplifying power by having boiling stuff down to Attack, Defense, Movement, Detect etc. While that looks simple, explaining how to turn those into Flight, Blast, Resistant Defenses, etc turns the difficulty WAY up. It's also a move in the Wrong direction IMHO.

 

Having a system that allows for play without the Speed chart, might help with the illusion of speedier combats. The Spd chart IMHO gives Champions game a real superheroic feel. It's not as needed for Heroic games, but the characters tend to all be between spd 3 and 4 in Heroic games. There would need to be a system that would replace the Spd chart, but again I don't really see that helping combats go faster. The many options in hero tend to cause player Paralysis esp when they are noobz. It's the same in 3.x/D20/Pathfinder. Once people get used to deciding before their phase what their character is going to do then stuff goes faster.

 

I don't think we need to throw out any "Bath water" just change the Baby wash we are using so it's got a slightly different scent.

[shuddemell]

snipped

True enough, we don't have to throw out the bathwater, but watering Hero to the point it isn't Hero does just that. I just don't believe even simplification will do what everyone seems to think it will. Because, at a certain point, people are just going to say, what is the advantage of this over say M&M or ICONS, or whatever. Honestly, what Derek did with CC was quite good, and from what I have seen, those that complain about Hero aren't going to try it now that it has gone from 700+ pages, to 200 or so pages. After all, if you look at it, D&D, PF and many others have way bigger page counts if you count all the splat everyone want to use. I don't think it is page count at all. You aren't going to convert those that play another system, have thousands invested in it and all their friends play with just simplification. You aren't going to convert them at all. And though they are willing to do some math, for some reason the simple fractions of Hero flabbergast many to the point I weep for the dismal state of their mathematical skills. It is no wonder the US has fallen so far behind in the sciences. What will likely happen, and has with some already, is that they stick to the version of Hero they like. I know a few folks that absolutely refuse to play 6th Edition... just because there are no figured stats anymore and no comeliness. So radical changes may attract a few noobs but likely in the numbers it will stop grognards from playing the current version. I will say this, HERO is no more complicated than PF or D&D, it is just complicated in a different way... that cannot change without changing its basic nature, and then it isn't Hero.

[shuddemell]

On the other hand, canned powers, et al are fine, and I think products like Narosia (if it ever is finished), The Fantasy Codex, and the like go a long way to making it plug and play, and I don't see a problem with that at all. Not everyone needs to see the nuts and bolts, BUT once again, if it feels like D&D and looks like D&D, why would anyone change when they are already playing the real thing, rather than a come lately retool of Hero. I just don't see it happening, wish it would, but in my experience it is just as likely as monkeys shooting out my butt.

[Tasha]

I honestly don't think that it's possible to get the Whole Hero system including powers down in page count much more. In fact it should probably go up by a few pages. Not with extra text, but with more artwork. Lack of Artwork, aka Wall of Text crits you for 400pages of armor piercing killing damage. Again the Lack of Artwork turns off many people who might be interested in the books. That's something that Savage Worlds does well. Colorful and inexpensive rulebook with interesting and evocative artwork on each page. I guess this goes back to the whole question of how much artwork does an RPG rule book need. How much is too much and how lean can you go and still keep reader interest.

[Lucius]

The Basic Rules for combat would be pretty easy and who knows... maybe the Speed Chart wouldn't even be needed with that. In fact, it's probably possible to design it where the entire Speed Characteristic would be a Advanced Rule and for the Basic rules the game could be like ... Every Turn you get 3 actions, than after the third action there is a Recovery Phase, than three more actions, Recovery Phase, etc, etc. Initiative could be Dex based... roll dice and apply Dexterity. With these basic rules there could be more basic power/talent options also. One Talent could be a Action boost where it's like spend 20 points to go 4x per turn instead of 3x and 40 points to go 5x instead of 3x per action turn and the Recovery phase would still happen at the end of the combat turn after everyone has taken their actions.

In what way is "eliminating" the Speed Chart and then re-introducing it in another form simplifying the game?

 

If you have some characters taking more actions than others you need some scheme whereby you determine the order in which they take their actions - and that's all the Speed Chart is.

 

 

Also, regarding "Roll for Initiative:" introducing another dice roll into the sequence is not simplifying the game, it is complicating the game. That's why I agree that eliminating Hit Locations for example would simplify the game, and perhaps that should be an "Advanced" rule - using Hit Locations adds another dice roll. Now, rolling dice for initiative may have the appeal of familiarity since that's how they do things in D&D which is what 99% of role playing gamers are used to playing (as far as I'm concerned, if you're playing Pathfinder, you're playing D&D by another name.) And there's something to be said for introducing a random element so the guy with SPD 4, DEX 23, isn't going first every single time and never getting caught off guard and having to react to someone else getting an action first. But what you propose here is to complicate the game further.

 

These are obviously hypothetical examples, but the Speed Chart is one example of the game that is obviously an advanced rule. You simplify that, you simplify the entire combat structure.

 

Another idea of separating a Basic and Advanced rules idea is the different type of Damage in the game... you have Normal Damage, and Killing Attacks that have the Stun multiplier. Obviously Basic Rules would be just Normal Damage and no Killing Attacks. The entire category fo Killing Damage would be put in the Advanced Rules. This could make it easier for new players to get into the game learning with just the normal damage first before having to deal with Killing damage, Stun multipliers, and having to deal with the greater impact of BODY being more important of a Characteristic now.

I have to admit, I've sometimes wondered if the game wouldn't be better off without the Killing Attack mechanic. You would still probably want some way to distinguish things like blades and arrows and bullets from fists and clubs.

 

 

Here's a separate idea...

 

What about changing the system from roll under to roll higher... OR at least for combat, changing it to a simple opposed roll system ~

Player A attacks with an OCV of 8, player B defends with a DCV of 6, both roll dice, add their CV and whoever rolls higher wins.

 

Instead of dealing with a equation that has to be redone with every separate target... the Attack Roll now is 11 + OCV - roll of 3d6 = DCV can hit. Because to me that process is a bit cumbersome. Then when you put in all the other options from martial art maneuvers, powers, etc, etc, it can be a pain sometimes. A simple opposed roll mechanism with whomever rolling higher wins could simplify it a lot.

This is not a new idea, and some people do it exactly that way. In fact, I'm sure it's either in the Advanced Player's Guide or maybe even as an option in 6th Edition Core books somewhere.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I tried to multiquote, but the palindromedary kept eating the post.

[megaplayboy]

I think one key revamp, which others here have suggested, and which would improve the granularity of stats, is to set the mechanics up so that every point of a stat is meaningful, not just a bridge point to another incremental improvement. Each point of STR should give additional benefits across the board, imo, e.g.(damage, lift, str vs. str rolls, etc.)

[Lucius]

 

Could stats be revamped such that every single point of a stat is mechanically meaningful, and the system still largely recognizable as Hero System?

You know, "breakpoints" existed in AD&D when it first came out and from my recent experiences it seems breakpoints STILL exist in that system. Having "every single point" be "mechanically meaningful" does not seem to be a prerequisite for popularity.

 

I will say this, HERO is no more complicated than PF or D&D, it is just complicated in a different way... that cannot change without changing its basic nature, and then it isn't Hero.

I agree - Hero is not more complicated, it's just differently complicated. Having started to play a lot of D&D (several newer editions) recently I am sure of that.

 

But it would be nice if we could overcome the PERCEPTION that it is more complicated.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, you want to see complicated? Lucius still can't multiquote so he quotes one post, composes his message, copies it without posting it, quotes another post, pastes the first message into it, finishes what he's saying and then posts.....