Wonder Woman (vs.) She-Hulk

[Mister E]

My starting Diana only has 65 STR...

That is Monstrous!

[Hyper-Man]

I kind of doubt She-Hulk has moves like these:

 

 

 

 

 

For what it's worth to those not aware. The version of Super Woman in the 1st link above is NOT the Earth 3 version of Wonder Woman.  She's actually a version of Mary Marvel! Someone firmly in the same weight class as a Kryptonian.

[zslane]

Check this:http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/benchmarks.html

Class-1000: "bench-press" 250,000 tons

Bench-pressing is about half as effective as dead-lifting. So...

500,000 tons "dead-lift" in HERO is roughly STR 122 [533 ktons].

Class-3000 is only twice as strong as Class-1000 at STR 127 [1067 ktons].

Class-5000: STR 132 [2133 ktons].

That chart doesn't match the Weight Intensity table in the Marvel Superheroes Advanced Player's Book. According to the advanced rules, MN is up to 80 tons, UN is up to 100 tons, and Shift Z is up to 1000 tons. Where did the far-out values in the classicmarvelforever web page come from?

[Hyper-Man]

From an Archtype standpoint Wonder Woman could be described as a Flying/Martial/Brick.  You could maybe add Speedster in there as well.  She-Hulk is at best a Martial/Brick. 

[Mister E]

Where did the far-out values in the classicmarvelforever web page come from?

Laziness?

 

It is too bad they don't match. Much on the site is house-rule.

 

Rhetorical.

[薔薇語]

 

So, Thor beats up on lesser gods. Okay. I accept that Thor is powerful. And a tarantula must seem like an unstoppable force to a mere fly. But Thor would go slap beneath the heel of Superman much the same way that godlike tarantula would succumb to my heel if I so chose. Thor's only chance would be if the writer drank far too much and forgot exactly how powerful Superman was. There is no shame in that. It is true for everyone. ^^

 

La Rose. 

[薔薇語]

Also, on the Pro-She-Hulk side of things, we have a good example of how not amazing WW can be, too. Here she is struggling against aquaman. And not just that, Aquaman outside of water. Come on, can we really expect her to tangle with the Cutest Muscle Woman in the universe? I think not. 

 

La Rose. 

[CaptnStrawberry]

I'm switching sides temporarily, but those are the weird alternate universe versions settling a blood feud - Aquaman seemed up-powered and utterly ruthless in that reality (Namor-esque, really).

 

With all this timmiverse stuff, it would be nice if we could put up some animated She-Hulk!  I vaguely remember her in an episode of Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends but may be wrong about that.

[zslane]

Too many conflicting sources, no? That's why I prefer sources that provide actual numeric values. Numbers can be compared. Everything else is speculative estimation (read: next to useless).

[megaplayboy]

So, Thor beats up on lesser gods. Okay. I accept that Thor is powerful. And a tarantula must seem like an unstoppable force to a mere fly. But Thor would go slap beneath the heel of Superman much the same way that godlike tarantula would succumb to my heel if I so chose. Thor's only chance would be if the writer drank far too much and forgot exactly how powerful Superman was. There is no shame in that. It is true for everyone. ^^

 

La Rose.

Uh, you really must not read much Thor. He's killed the Sentry, beaten Gladiator, gone toe to toe with Thanos, Galactus, Surtur, Ymir and the Celestials, etc. He's every bit as disgustingly powerful as Superman. At one point he had the power of Odin, and THEN BECAME MORE POWERFUL. He destroyed the Moon and then put it back together. Plus, he has a trump card over Superman: Superman "jobs" to magic. No special invulnerability to it. A few blasts from Mjolnir and Supes(even the Silver Age planet-towing version) is toast.

[Grailknight]

Uh, you really must not read much Thor. He's killed the Sentry, beaten Gladiator, gone toe to toe with Thanos, Galactus, Surtur, Ymir and the Celestials, etc. He's every bit as disgustingly powerful as Superman. At one point he had the power of Odin, and THEN BECAME MORE POWERFUL. He destroyed the Moon and then put it back together. Plus, he has a trump card over Superman: Superman "jobs" to magic. No special invulnerability to it. A few blasts from Mjolnir and Supes(even the Silver Age planet-towing version) is toast.

 

And in the single canon crossover Superman still won.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've never seen Thor demonstrate the kind of ridiculous power Superman has, even when supercharged with the Odinforce, but it would be a close fight either way because of Thor's experience and magical powers.  I still think Clark could pick up the hammer, I mean if the big blue boy scout isn't worthy, who is?

[Hyper-Man]

Thor is just one of several Captain Marvel Wannabees.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Captain Marvel probably could beat down Superman, but it would be an earth-cracking fight, that's for sure.

[wcw43921]

Uh, you really must not read much Thor. He's killed the Sentry, beaten Gladiator, gone toe to toe with Thanos, Galactus, Surtur, Ymir and the Celestials, etc. He's every bit as disgustingly powerful as Superman. At one point he had the power of Odin, and THEN BECAME MORE POWERFUL. He destroyed the Moon and then put it back together. Plus, he has a trump card over Superman: Superman "jobs" to magic. No special invulnerability to it. A few blasts from Mjolnir and Supes(even the Silver Age planet-towing version) is toast.

 

So much for Marvel's heroes being built more "Down To Earth" than DC's heroes.   

 

Thor is just one of several Captain Marvel Wannabees.

 

I prefer the term "Emulators" myself.  And to my mind, Captain Marvel is a really great character to emulate, as is Superman.

 

But back on topic--my vote went to Wonder Woman.  As I recall, she was described as being "Beautiful As Aphrodite, Strong As Hercules, Wise As Athena, Swift As Mercury."  (Apologies to mythology purists for mixing the two pantheons.)  So it's not just brute force she brings to the fight, but speed and wisdom as well--she fights smarter than anyone who just stands there and swings her fists.  And while Jennifer Walters has been combat trained by Captain America, she still hasn't trained and practiced as long as an immortal Amazon, who very likely has learned strategies and techniques that her teachers learned from Athena herself.

 

One point I need clarified--it was my understanding that unlike The Hulk, She-Hulk's strength was drawn from her libido.  Jennifer Walter repressed her sexuality the same way that Bruce Banner repressed his rage, and when the Gamma-irradiated DNA in Banner's blood was introduced into Jennifer, it "liberated" her sexuality the way that Banner's rage was "liberated" by the Gamma bombardment of the Gamma bomb detonation.  Or is that completely off base?

 

Hope that helps--and Thanks in advance for your answers.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree that comparing training a few hours a week with Captain America for the short time she was an Avenger with a lifetime of training with the best warriors in the world is not exactly rational.  Cap is good but he's not going to make up for all that.  She Hulk doesn't live to make war like Wonder Woman does.

[zslane]

And being trained doesn't automatically make the trainee a master. Sometimes a student just isn't master material, and never will be no matter how good the teacher is. I seriously doubt that Jennifer is supposed to be on par with Cap just because he trained her for a little while. WW, on the other hand, is supposed to virtually be "Athena on Earth" in terms of combat skill, no?

[Hyper-Man]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman

 

Pre-Crisis

Wonder Woman (vol. 1) #105 revealed that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek and Roman gods by Athena – "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."^[23] Wonder Woman's Amazon training gave her limited telepathy, profound scientific knowledge,^[23] and the ability to speak every language known to man and beyond – even caveman^[23][132] and Martian language.^[132]

Between 1966 and 1967, new powers were added, such as super breath and telepathy.^[133]

 

Post-Crisis

In the Post-Crisis universe, Wonder Woman receives her powers as a blessing from Olympian deities:^[135]

• Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fertility, blessed Diana with strength drawn from the Earth spirit Gaea, making her one of the physically strongest heroes in the DC Universe and the strongest female heroine of all in the DC Universe.^[136] Her connection to the earth allows her to heal at an accelerated rate so long as she is in contact with the planet. In rare cases where she has been gravely injured, Diana showed the ability to physically merge with the earth, causing whatever injuries or poisons to be expelled from her body; such an act is considered sacred, and can only be used in extreme cases.^[137]
• Pallas Athena, the goddess of wisdom and war, granted Diana great wisdom, intelligence, and military prowess. Athena's gift has enabled Diana to master over a dozen languages (including those of alien origin), multiple complex crafts, sciences and philosophies, as well as leadership, military strategy, and armed and unarmed combat. More recently, Athena bound her own eyesight to Diana's, granting her increased empathy.^[138]
• Artemis, goddess of the hunt, animals, and the Moon, graced Diana with the Eyes of the Hunter and unity with beasts. The Eyes of the Hunter ability gives Diana a full range of enhanced senses, including telescopic vision and super hearing.
• Hestia, goddess of hearth and home, granted Diana sisterhood with fire. This power has been shown to control the "Fires of Truth," which Diana wields through her lasso, making anyone bound by it unable to lie.^[139] This ability also grants her resistance to both normal and supernatural fire.
• Hermes, the messenger god of speed, granted Diana superhuman speed and the ability to fly.^[139] She is capable of flying at speeds approaching half the speed of light.^[137] She can react quickly enough to deflect bullets, lasers, and other projectiles with her virtually impenetrable bracelets. After the 2011 relaunch of the character, Wonder Woman does not naturally possess the power of flight. She gains it once she is hit by a feather thrown by Hermes.^{[140][141][better source needed]}
• Aphrodite, goddess of love, bestowed Diana with stunning beauty, as well as a kind heart.

[Mister E]

Is Superman alive again?

 

Last I heard He-Man killed him w/ his magic sword.

[CaptnStrawberry]

We all know He-Man could crumple Supes, Wonder Woman, Thor, the Hulk and any other nearby metahumans into a ball and toss them into the next solar system.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Bah, Space Ghost could take them all.

[薔薇語]

Uh, you really must not read much Thor. He's killed the Sentry, beaten Gladiator, gone toe to toe with Thanos, Galactus, Surtur, Ymir and the Celestials, etc. He's every bit as disgustingly powerful as Superman. At one point he had the power of Odin, and THEN BECAME MORE POWERFUL. He destroyed the Moon and then put it back together. Plus, he has a trump card over Superman: Superman "jobs" to magic. No special invulnerability to it. A few blasts from Mjolnir and Supes(even the Silver Age planet-towing version) is toast.

 

 

So, instead of a casual squashing, Superman would have to deliberately put his heel down to crush the Thor-Bug?

 

Thor is powerful - that is without doubt. But he ain't going to keep up with Superman. Thor doesn't move at light speed - much less faster. Thor doesn't think at light speed, either. Thor doesn't bench press planets in his free time. Thor doesn't take the hits that Superman does. Thor can't recover the way Superman can. Thor's only advantage is that he might have some experience - but Superman is hardly lacking in that. Superman has faced Galaxy ending threats on a weekly basis. Any difference in experience with Thor is negligible at best and most likely favoring Superman.

 

Again, there is no shame in accepting that Superman is an overpowered god. It isn't an interesting character because of that. And the only reason why he ever loses is because he forgets he is superman. Or Batman. Batman is the trump to everyone. ^-^

 

La Rose.

[Greywind]

Neither does Superman. That version died after the Crisis and he was rebooted in Byrne's Man of Steel. I don't even think the gnu52 Sooperman does all that.

[zslane]

Pointing out all the loony characterizations of superheroes only proves that the winner of these hypothetical fights is whomever the writer wants to win. There is no objective way to determine a victor.

 

If everyone is going to pull from the entire histories of these characters, you might as well not even start the thread. If you can pick a standard of comparison that actually makes this thread work, by all means, offer it up. Otherwise, we might as well just pin it and move on.

[Hyper-Man]

Dad

"What are you kids making so much noise arguing about?!"

 

Kids

"Who would win in a fight between the Phantom and Tarzan."

 

Dad

"Oh for crying out loud. Shut up and go to sleep!"

 

Kids

"But dad... this is SERIOUS!"