Wonder Woman (vs.) She-Hulk

[薔薇語]

She hulk. Diana can take on big brutes but they ussually aren't on She Hulk's level. Just look at that fight with demois. He is a lumbering hulk and most certainly not as strong as She Hulk but Diana struggle to just subdue him. Now slim him down, increase his strength, give him better fighting skills and look at how outmatched Dianna would be. That is She Hulk.

 

La Rose.

[CaptnStrawberry]

That's the style La Rose! 

 

Ok, Ok, they're both fetish-worthy.   I guess I need to practice my geeky trash-talk skills.  I'm warming up for the next arena league.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, again, it comes down to if you're choosing to take the stats and information as listed and described by the writers and companies, or make them equivalents to their setting.  Wonder Woman is many, many times stronger than She Hulk in the DC universe, but she's roughly equivalent to her universe if you take them across settings.  So which do you use?  I prefer to take them as written, it makes comparisons and statting easier.

[CaptnStrawberry]

I would hazard a guess that when Wondie was introduced c. 1940 she was much weaker than She-Hulk in her first appearance c. 1980.  Both have undergone a kind of strength inflation to keep them 'super'.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree.  It was... I think after Crisis at Infinite Earths that they upgraded Wonder Woman significantly, to the second strongest in the DC universe.  I don't think she needs the bracers any more either but still uses them for nostalgia I guess.

[zslane]

Based on the most recent DC Universe writeup, Wonder Woman has the strength to lift 1600 tons. If She-Hulk maxes out at 100 tons, then Diana outclasses her by more than an order of magnitude. Granted, in Champions terms that is only the difference between a 60 STR and an 80 STR, but you gotta figure those extra 4D6 of damage are eventually going to take their toll on poor old She-Hulk.

[Comic]

What I'm suggesting is (for all that on paper Diana has the match tied up) given Jen's obvious superior gets-stronger-the-longer-she-fights advantage even with Diana's Gabby Douglas moves this may be a match we'd need to see repeated time, and time again, to get a definitive answer.

[Christopher R Taylor]

You just want to watch two hot women wrasslin over and over.

[Echo3Niner]

Yeah, DC's strong guys are way stronger than Marvel's.  According to official DC statements, Wonder Woman is just barely weaker than Superman, who is several multitudes stronger than the Hulk has ever been shown to be (except in Secret War when he lifted a mountain range, which was just goofy and insanely beyond his established power level).

 

I disagree.  Hulk was shown in a "What If" once (a long time ago, before all this silly crossover business), banging on SuperDuper, and the last panel inferred that Supe's was stressing; not that that's definitive or anything.

 

Hulk does not have an "established power level", it has been stated repeatedly that he has no real upper limit; that is definitive.

 

 

 

As for the chicks; well here's where "fair fight" has to get ironed out.  If WW can't use her lasso, sword, shield, armor, bracers, etc., so it's actually a straight MMA match, which in my estimation would make it "fair", then the ability to absorb damage and heal it (regardless of the author or timeline of that specific writers interpretation of the character), would give the edge to SH in the end...

[Christopher R Taylor]

According to Marvel's stats, Hulk can lift 100 tons but gets stronger when he gets angry.

According to DC's stats, Superman can lift 200,000,000,000,000,000,000 Tons and not at his limit.

Hulk can get really angry but... that angry?  Writers can tweak these guys all they want for a story (such as "Marvel won't do a crossover unless we make it seem equal") but there's absolutely no comparison here.

And Wonder Woman is described as the second most powerful character in the DC setting, just slightly weaker than Superman.

 

I know, DC is ridiculous and overstated, they are ridiculously over powered but, that's what they write.  Marvel's characters are much more down to earth and if not reasonable, then at least less ridiculous.  But if you're going to do a comparison, you either take them at what they are statted at, officially... or just make up what you want based on what you prefer to use.

 

But as they're written officially... there's absolutely not even remotely a contest here.  But in the comic book world, what's officially written goes out the window to fit the story.  Sometimes the Flash is fast as light, sometimes a criminal can push a button before the Flash can stop him.

 

So it comes down really to who's writing and what comic it is.  In Wonder Woman's comic, she wins.  In She Hulk's, she wins.  Those are the rules in comics.

[Echo3Niner]

 

According to Marvel's stats, Hulk can lift 100 tons but gets stronger when he gets angry.

According to DC's stats, Superman can lift 200,000,000,000,000,000,000 Tons and not at his limit.

Hulk can get really angry but... that angry?  Writers can tweak these guys all they want for a story (such as "Marvel won't do a crossover unless we make it seem equal") but there's absolutely no comparison here.

 

Except, those stats are from a "point in time".  Way back in the very old Marvel RPG, Hulk's strength started at Shift Z and went to class 5000 easy enough; and again, it was stated that he had no upper limit.  It was never specifically stated he could go to Beyond class, the only thing after Class 5000, but there was no where else to go, it is the only thing after C5k...  IF he could go to Beyond class, then there was no numbers limit to what he could lift, and his strength was effectively "off the chart", which nullifies all lifting comparisons.

 

Which is why I don't use stats/lifting for comparisons at all.

 

I agree with the point that if you take them at any specific point in time, you can make an argument either way, or as you stated, simply do what you want, which is what writers do when they "interpret" a character for their story.

 

Because there has never been a cross-company agreed upon stat solution, and because the characters change upon a writers whim to fit the story they want to write, the debate is faulty from the get-go.

 

The question is not whether the stats show who should win based on numbers (which would then have to be defined - which numbers, from which source, from which time, etc.), but our opinion of who would win in a "fair fight" (which also isn't defined).  No opinion is more valid, or "right" than the next, and no opinion can be "wrong" in this case, because this isn't science (or real for that matter), and thus strictly a matter of our collected imaginations based on a source of completely inconsistent, whimsical writer's made-up stories, that someone else tried to put stats to, at that time.

[zslane]

The maximum I've ever seen for Superman is a lifting capacity of 800,000 tons.

[Echo3Niner]

The maximum I've ever seen for Superman is a lifting capacity of 800,000 tons.

 

Superhuman Strength and Endurance[edit]

Enhanced strength far above that of a human and even most superhumans, making him "more powerful than a locomotive," is one of Superman's signature powers and has often been described as chief among his other abilities. While not infinite, depictions of the upper limit of how much weight he can lift have ranged from being able to do the work of several laborers in half the time, crush diamonds in his grasp, lift objects hundreds of times his own weight including any sized vehicle over his head, bend steel with his bare hands, lifting mountains, and all the way up to in the Silver Age and Modern Age where he is seen moving entire planets. This makes him the strongest being in the DC Universe. After being saturated with yellow solar energy in All-Star Superman, his strength was tested as exceeding the force of 200 quintillion tons(or 2x10²⁰ tons in scientific notation, i.e., two hundred billion billion tons); he held this much with one hand and he even said he feels like he can pick up more, enough to pull Earth away from the sun.^[6] As of The New 52 reboot, his strength now exceeds 5.972 sextillion metric tons.^[7] Explanations include being adapted to the heavier gravity of Krypton, and his muscles using the power of the solar energy which fuels all his abilities. While in direct yellow sunlight, his strength can be augmented to limitless and incalculable levels. He has strength necessary to shatter entire worlds. Superman's stamina has also been shown as limitless while he remains in yellow sunlight. DC Comics is not known to have coined a similar reference to Marvel Comics's reference, “Class 100 strength,” to Marvel characters whose super-humanoid strength levels are so high that they can lift (press) 100 tons or more for extended periods.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman

[Echo3Niner]

While I'm at it:

 

Pre-Crisis[edit]

The Golden Age Wonder Woman had strength that was comparable to the Golden Age Superman. An example of this is when she was able to tear a steel door off its hinges.^[129] In one of her earliest appearances, she is shown running easily at 60 mph, and later jumps from a building and lands on the balls of her feet.^[130]

Her strength would be removed in accordance with "Aphrodite's Law" if she allowed her bracelets to be bound or chained by a male.^[131]

In the Silver and Bronze ages of comics, Wonder Woman was able to further increase her strength. In times of great need, removing her bracelets would temporarily augment her power tenfold, but cause her to go insane in the process.^[134]

These powers received changes after the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

In the Post-Crisis universe, Wonder Woman receives her powers as a blessing from Olympian deities:^[135]

• Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fertility, blessed Diana with strength drawn from the Earth spirit Gaea, making her one of the physically strongest heroes in the DC Universe and the strongest female heroine of all in the DC Universe.^[136] Her connection to the earth allows her to heal at an accelerated rate so long as she is in contact with the planet. In rare cases where she has been gravely injured, Diana showed the ability to physically merge with the earth, causing whatever injuries or poisons to be expelled from her body; such an act is considered sacred, and can only be used in extreme cases.^[137]

^​

While not invulnerable, she is highly resistant to great amounts of concussive force and extreme temperatures. Edged weapons or projectiles applied with sufficient force, though, are able to pierce her skin.^[137][142] Due to her divine origins, Diana can resist many forms of magical manipulation.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman#Powers_and_abilities

[Echo3Niner]

And to complete it:

 

A transfusion of gamma-irradiated blood from her cousin Bruce Banner (the Hulk) granted Jennifer Walters superhuman powers. In her She-Hulk form, she possesses enormoussuperhuman strength, that potentially makes her, by far, the physically strongest known woman in the Marvel Universe when her emotional state is sufficiently high.^{[66][70][71][72]}

Although She-Hulk's strength originally remained at a set level and did not increase, later in her history her strength has sporadically been stated to increase further from fear,^[66] or anger,^[72] similar to her cousin. In addition the character possesses superhuman speed, agility, stamina, and reflexes.^[73]

As She-Hulk, Walters is exponentially stronger than she is in her Jennifer Walters form; therefore any extra strength gained as Jennifer Walters through intense physical training will be amplified, making her She-Hulk form even stronger. After being defeated by the Champion of the Universe, She-Hulk exercised for several months in her Jennifer Walters form, resulting in a significant gain in strength and muscular mass in her She-Hulk form and allowing her to soundly defeat the Champion in a rematch. At this time she was able to effortlessly sustain the Thing's maximum weight with a single arm, while her strength was greatly restrained by a "Jupiter suit," and she was shown as considerably stronger thanHercules.^[71] Her calm strength level has since receded, but remains somewhat higher than, for example, Wonder Man.^[70] Similarly to her cousin, her powers can also greatly increase by absorbing radiation.^[74][75]

She-Hulk's body is superhumanly durable and nearly impervious to force, pain, and disease: her skin can withstand extremes of temperature, as well as tremendous stresses and impacts without puncture wounds or lacerations. Her enhanced physiology renders her immune to all terrestrial diseases. She-Hulk also possesses a healing factor, which enabled her to completely recover, within minutes, from a skewering by the Wendigo.^[76]

 

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She-Hulk#Powers_and_abilities}

[Echo3Niner]

I suppose to be fair, this finishes it:

 

The Hulk possesses the potential for limitless physical strength depending directly on his emotional state, particularly his anger.^[65] This has been reflected in the repeated comment, "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets." The cosmically-powerful entity known as the Beyonder once analyzed the Hulk's physiology, and claimed that the Hulk's potential strength had "no finite element inside."^[66] Hulk's strength has been depicted as sometimes limited by Banner's subconscious influence; when Jean Grey psionically "shut Banner off", Hulk became strong enough to overpower and destroy the physical form of the villain Onslaught.^[67] Writer Greg Pak described the Worldbreaker Hulk shown during World War Hulk as having a level of physical power where "Hulk was stronger than any mortal—and most immortals—who ever walked the Earth."^[68] His strength allows him to leap into lower Earth orbit or across continents,^[69][70] and he has displayed superhuman speed.^[71][72]

His durability, regeneration, and endurance also increase in proportion to his temper.^[73] Hulk is resistant to injury or damage, though the degree to which varies between interpretations, but he has withstood the equivalent of solar temperatures,^[74][75] nuclear explosions,^{[71][76][77][78]} and planet-shattering impacts.^[79][80][81] Despite his remarkable resiliency, continuous barrages of high-caliber gunfire can hinder his movement to some degree while he can be temporarily subdued with intense attacks with chemical weapons such as anesthetic gases, although any interruption of such dosages will allow him to quickly recover.^[82] He has been shown to have both regenerative and adaptive healing abilities, including growing tissues to allow him to breathe underwater,^[83] surviving unprotected in space for extended periods,^[84] and when injured, healing from most wounds within seconds, including, on one occasion, the complete destruction of most of his body mass.^[85][86] As an effect, he has an extremely prolonged lifespan.^[87]

 

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(comics)#As_Hulk}

[Greywind]

I refuse to use dead game stats. The comic companies were never bound by those.

[Hyper-Man]

The battlefield goals of a fight would have a very strong influence on which would win as well.

If to just bash each other then its the current debate then Wonder Woman's Flight would be a major factor (see Superman vs. Solomon Grundy in JLA:Animated for an example).  However, if there is a requirement to hold ground or capture a flag like the team on team JLA vs. Avengers/Avengers vs. JLA 4 issue miniseries was then She-Hulk might have a slight advantage.

 

I think a first appearance powerlevel would be a good way to compare them.  And animated versions have matched up by association.

 

The current Animated Avengers series has not had She-Hulk appear yet but Hulk has faced off against Hyperion who is a pretty close approximation of Superman:TAS in powerlevel.  When they've fought 1 on 1 Hypererion's speed, flight and heat-vision have allowed him to get the upper hand vs. the Hulk.  Given that Wonder Woman in the Justice League:Animated Series fought Superman to a standstill mostly due to far better HTH skills at the time tells me she could dominate She-Hulk on the battlefield.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Without getting into a pointless debate about the way Marvel and DC build their universes, I'll say that for the most part I see this as a fairly even fight that could go either way depending on circumstances. In a situation where both characters have all their equipment and a lot of room to move around, I'll give a slight edge to WW. That said, I can easily envision a scenario with either one winning.

[zslane]

The main reason I refer to game stats is because they are reasonably objective parameters. Using a game's simulational engine is a good way to test the question using mechanics that have complete transparency. Otherwise we are left with the same inconsistent narrative methods comic book writers use, and they can't be relied on much since their only interests are serving whatever preposterous plots they are trying to scratch out on deadline.

[drunkonduty]

Game stats are based on the inconsistent narrative methods so they aren't doing us much good really. They're just someone's interpretation of a character and no more valid than anyone else's.

 

I actually like the idea of basing the characters on their respective places within their own milieu. It evens out the enormous disparity in power levels between Marvel and DC. And unless we do that then it's a given that any DC character will spank a Marvel character. (OK, maybe not always. Booster Gold is unlikely to take down the Silver Surfer.)

 

Truthfully these threads are popularity polls. And for me, that mean Shulkie. Cos she's got a sense of humour.

[Comic]

Now, which would win in secret identity?

 

Jennifer Walters or Diana Prince (either original powerless version, or due Circe's spell)?

 

I'd have to give that to Jennifer, hand's down.

[Comic]

And here's a terrible question. She-Hulk is an exponential expression of Jennifer Walter's strength. So.. Jennifer puts on the Captain Universe costume, gets exposed to cosmic rays, is amped up by the Morlock flesh sculptor Masque or made a Herald of Galactus.. what's She Hulk like?

[Grailknight]

Now, which would win in secret identity?

 

Jennifer Walters or Diana Prince (either original powerless version, or due Circe's spell)?

 

I'd have to give that to Jennifer, hand's down.

 

Uhh no.

 

Jennifer Walters is a lawyer who works out and trains in her spare time as her main hobby.

 

Diana Prince is an agent who was trained and tested in combat everyday since she was a child by immortal teachers in a warrior cult.

[megaplayboy]

Just like to point out that "strength levels" in comic book media don't really follow a "scale" in the normal sense, more of a set of "benchmarks".

For example:

1. Can lift a motorcycle

2. Can lift a car

3. Can lift a truck, armored car or subway car

4. Can lift a tank

5. Can lift a jumbo jet

6. Can lift a trawler or submarine

7. Can lift an aircraft carrier or supertanker

8. Can lift a skyscraper

9. Can lift a pyramid

10. Can lift a mountain

11. Can lift/move an asteroid

12. Can move a planet

12+. Can move a star--infinite strength

 

If a character is shown performing a feat more than once, it's safe to assume they are capable of that level of strength as the plot requires.

"Class 100 Strength" and "Marvel tons" are notoriously inconsistent/flexible.

 

WW can't move planets. She could probably lift a mountain. SH is probably a tier or three lower than that.