Comic Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Jennifer Walters is a lawyer who works out and trains in her spare time as her main hobby. Diana Prince is an agent who was trained and tested in combat everyday since she was a child by immortal teachers in a warrior cult. Jennifer Walters works out and trains in her spare time as her main hobby WITH THE AVENGERS, a cosmos-spanning group of superhuman combatants drawing their skills from across the Universes. She spars with Valkyrie, Thundra and Tigra, and has been intensively coached by Captain America. There's a good chance she could go toe-to-toe with Black Widow hand-to-hand. Diana Prince is an agent whose own organization didn't realize they'd assigned her to hunt her alter ego, trained in combat by an isolationist and isolated group whose techniques haven't changed or accepted outside influence since they fled before the might of the Spartans to hide out on an island away from any threat. Without a doubt, if net and trident combat come into the picture between powerless Diana Prince -- who can shoot a gun -- and powerless Jennifer Walters -- who can bench press a motorcycle -- or if firearms are involved, sure, Diana Prince is queen of the arena. If it's straight wrasslin'? Bruce Banner's cousin brings the bigger guns to the ring: at least equal devotion to a more modern, more widely schooled set of styles, more reach, and more strength. Plus, Diana appears to like ending up pinned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo3Niner Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 If you go back and re-read the Wikipedia excerpts I pasted in here (or God forbid you actually click the links and research the topic thoroughly), strength and fighting skills are not the issue; it's the ability to be able to absorb and recover from damage. In this, She-Hulk has a huge advantage. Unless given time to "merge with the earth" to heal, WW cannot recover from the damage SH is dealing; however, SH CAN recover, almost instantly, from ANY damage WW deals out - thus, SH wins, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Recovering from damage doesn't necessarily mean she can't be knocked out though. If rage aided STR is in play then it makes sense that the odds will favor SH the longer the battle goes. And for the record. I like both characters equally well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Is She Hulk rage based or not? I always thought she didn't have Hulk's ability like that, but maybe they changed her. Last I read about her she was in the Fantastic Four so I'm a bit behind the times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Jennifer Walters works out and trains in her spare time as her main hobby WITH THE AVENGERS, a cosmos-spanning group of superhuman combatants drawing their skills from across the Universes. She spars with Valkyrie, Thundra and Tigra, and has been intensively coached by Captain America. There's a good chance she could go toe-to-toe with Black Widow hand-to-hand. Diana Prince is an agent whose own organization didn't realize they'd assigned her to hunt her alter ego, trained in combat by an isolationist and isolated group whose techniques haven't changed or accepted outside influence since they fled before the might of the Spartans to hide out on an island away from any threat. Without a doubt, if net and trident combat come into the picture between powerless Diana Prince -- who can shoot a gun -- and powerless Jennifer Walters -- who can bench press a motorcycle -- or if firearms are involved, sure, Diana Prince is queen of the arena. If it's straight wrasslin'? Bruce Banner's cousin brings the bigger guns to the ring: at least equal devotion to a more modern, more widely schooled set of styles, more reach, and more strength. Plus, Diana appears to like ending up pinned. Jennifer trains so she can learn to fight. She doesn't spar with any of them without her powers. Natasha couldn't bother She-Hulk but would handle Jennifer quite easily. Diana spars with Batman. She teaches the other JLA'ers how to fight. She's also had a crime fighting career without her powers. Pretty sure that powerless Diana is consistently depicted as bigger, stronger and in better shape than Jennifer. Ah yes, wrestling. That ancient, archaic and outdated fighting style that was invented in some Mediterranean country or the other. I'm gonna give the edge there to the person trained by the ancient immortal practitioners of that style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Is She Hulk rage based or not? I always thought she didn't have Hulk's ability like that, but maybe they changed her. Last I read about her she was in the Fantastic Four so I'm a bit behind the times. She wasn't rage based until the Red Hulk storyline but she is now to a lesser extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Game stats are useful because they provide an invariant set of values, approved by the IP holders, that represent reasonable shapshots of these characters that everyone would recognize. Game stats are intended to provide a level of consistency that the comics themselves typically fail to, which make them a far better baseline for comparison than estimated values drawn from arbitrary appearances cherry-picked by readers. So, grab the most powerful version of each character as documented in any officially-licensed RPG, and go from there. And, btw, in all the Marvel and DC game systems over the years, lifting capacity has always been translatable to real-world values, which is where the analysis occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo3Niner Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Is She Hulk rage based or not? I always thought she didn't have Hulk's ability like that, but maybe they changed her. Last I read about her she was in the Fantastic Four so I'm a bit behind the times. IF you read the posts I put up from Wikipedia, those are collective of the comic books, and detail clearly how SH's strength has changed to now be based both on her non-Hulk form, AND rage/fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo3Niner Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Game stats are useful because they provide an invariant set of values, approved by the IP holders, that represent reasonable shapshots of these characters that everyone would recognize. Game stats are intended to provide a level of consistency that the comics themselves typically fail to, which make them a far better baseline for comparison than estimated values drawn from arbitrary appearances cherry-picked by readers. So, grab the most powerful version of each character as documented in any officially-licensed RPG, and go from there. And, btw, in all the Marvel and DC game systems over the years, lifting capacity has always been translatable to real-world values, which is where the analysis occurs. The posts from Wikipedia represent values directly from comics (with citations). Thus, while Superman has several "tested" noted strength levels over time, it is clearly stated that Hulk has no limit. Thus, eventually, Hulk is stronger than anyone, period. I agree that various stats from various sources can be useful in baselining, the only problem is that since those stats are simply a point in time, based on a writers whimsy, then stated by someone else, they will change and evolve, as the storylines do. So in order to make them of any real value, you would have to state the point and time and power level based on the storyline at that time, to make the comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 I guess I am skeptical that fans can agree on a particular comic incarnation of either character for comparison, particularly since most storylines don't come equipped with real-world values upon which to base analysis. Nor do storylines come with any way of examining the mechanics of those characters' powers. Not in a way that game stats (and the associated game mechanics) do. It just seems to me that choosing a particular set of game stats for comparison is far more concrete and explicit and less subject to personal interpretation than the alternatives. And game stats aren't based on "some writer's whimsy", they are based on values determined in collaboration with the publishers of the comics and the custodians of everything deemed "official" by them. If you knew the kind of Byzantine approval process Marvel and DC imposed upon RPG publishers, you wouldn't characterize the game stats as anyone's "whimsy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnStrawberry Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 If it matters, the relatively recent DC Adventures rulebook rates Wonder Woman at strength 16, which equates to a lifting of 1,600 tons, but also gives her a 'Strength of Gaia' boost specific to lifting, up to 22 (100,000 tons). Interesting that they distinguish between lifting capacity and general (punching) strength - they do something similar with Superman. I think it's time our lovely ladies resolve their differences and go up against Darkseid and the Female Furies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 I say they team up and go stomp on Thanos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnStrawberry Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Now that I think about it, how bizarre is it that a fairly obscure character like Thanos has officially appeared on the silver screen before Wonder Woman?! Sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 The 3rd edition MEGS write-up also gives her a strength of 16, but no mention of a boost just for lifting. In that edition, Superman is given a strength of 25 and no special boost. Somewhere along the way, game designers realized that WW had been given much greater lifting capability, but didn't want it to contribute to damage output for some reason. Whatever their play-balance concerns might have been, I'm not sure we need to take that into consideration when making our own comparisons. If she has a strength of 22, then she has a strength of 22. The whole "only for lifting" nonsense can probably be ignored unless there is some well-known and explicated reason to treat WW as fighting with only 16 of her 22 strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Thanos is not relatively obscure to those that know Marvel. Meanwhile, Wonder Woman had to deal with that aborted TV series fiasco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Wonder Woman's STR has been raised since Infinite Crisis. Before she was weaker than the Kryptonians and the 16 was probably a good benchmark. The current 22 is also good relative to her STR in the New 52 DCU. She-Hulk would probably trounce the pre-IC Diana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comic Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 We have so many options with this. Top power WW vs top power She Hulk? Well, top power She Hulk was a Herald of Galactus, so that's no good. Original appearance? They were three decades apart in original inking, after serious power inflation, so original WW would be paste on original She Hulk's fist, and even WW at the time of She Hulks first appearance would have had a tough time. Powerless alter ego's in a fight? I believe Jennifer Walter's intense strength-training and combat coaching with the Avengers gives her the edge over superspy Diana Prince in a fist fight, but if weapons come into it, Diana Prince handily wins. WW's modern average vs. She Hulk's modern average, the Galactus thing aside? WW clearly wins, as the prime female super of DC, compared to the current treatment of Shulky as three tiers below Carol Danvers. Marvel decides to go a new direction with She Hulk, and put her at par with, say, RULK or Worldbreaker, both of which are plausibly within the Madder-She-Gets precept? Then WW had better hop that invisible jet back to the hidden island and hide there another 3,000 years until Jennifer cools off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo3Niner Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 The 3rd edition MEGS write-up also gives her a strength of 16, but no mention of a boost just for lifting. In that edition, Superman is given a strength of 25 and no special boost. Somewhere along the way, game designers realized that WW had been given much greater lifting capability, but didn't want it to contribute to damage output for some reason. Whatever their play-balance concerns might have been, I'm not sure we need to take that into consideration when making our own comparisons. If she has a strength of 22, then she has a strength of 22. The whole "only for lifting" nonsense can probably be ignored unless there is some well-known and explicated reason to treat WW as fighting with only 16 of her 22 strength. I guess I am skeptical that fans can agree on a particular comic incarnation of either character for comparison, particularly since most storylines don't come equipped with real-world values upon which to base analysis. Nor do storylines come with any way of examining the mechanics of those characters' powers. Not in a way that game stats (and the associated game mechanics) do. It just seems to me that choosing a particular set of game stats for comparison is far more concrete and explicit and less subject to personal interpretation than the alternatives. And game stats aren't based on "some writer's whimsy", they are based on values determined in collaboration with the publishers of the comics and the custodians of everything deemed "official" by them. If you knew the kind of Byzantine approval process Marvel and DC imposed upon RPG publishers, you wouldn't characterize the game stats as anyone's "whimsy". So, interestingly, your two quotes basically counter your point about game stats being useful. My point is that when a character has a character sheet made of them, when stats are applied, that is a point in time; and, the game designers only have what has gone on to that point, and tend to us the "recent" iteration of that character for their character stats. Thus, just like Comic says, you can find stats from various iterations of games, over a very long period, to make your comparisons. If you agree upon a variation of the characters, then game stats, if they are viable (in other words, actually based upon something, and not a game designers need for balance in their respective games as you point out) could be used, but good luck on finding these mystical stats that everyone will agree upon using for the comparison. At the end of the day, I agree that this type of poll is more a popularity contest and the beginning of great debate. What I disagree with is that there is a good way to end said debate. As I said earlier, since it's all opinion, based on make believe characters in make believe worlds, with their own make believe science and norms, at the end of the day, anyone can make just about any argument and find sufficient make believe information to support it; so everyone's opinion has equal merit. Except mine, because I keep using words like "definitive" and "period" when talking about make believe stuff, so "the height of my hypocrisy knows no bounds..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkonduty Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 So how about Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) vs. Wonder Woman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 re: DC vs Marvel and who best matches up vs. who I think this art sums it up nicely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Such aggression! Why can't they all just get along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thor vs Superman would be a brutal fight. Sooner or later Thor would strap on that belt that amplifies his strength and I dunno if Supes could handle him. It depends if you consider Mjollnir's lightning to be magical or not, really. Superman is definitely stronger and faster, but he's more vulnerable to magic. And thor has several millennia of experience on Superman, but he's slower. And I suspect Clark could lift the hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnStrawberry Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Neat art, but picky me I see at least one mismatch - looks like Black Panther versus Blue Beetle (Kord)? Panther vs Vixen would be more like it. Not sure Falcon would stand much chance against Hawkman, either. In the same vein, here's a cross-universe villain matchup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Based on the most recent DC Universe writeup, Wonder Woman has the strength to lift 1600 tons. If She-Hulk maxes out at 100 tons, then Diana outclasses her by more than an order of magnitude. Granted, in Champions terms that is only the difference between a 60 STR and an 80 STR, but you gotta figure those extra 4D6 of damage are eventually going to take their toll on poor old She-Hulk. The Marvel 100 ton limit has been shown to be false again and again. But WW is still a lot stronger than Jen. You're looking at someone in the 110 range versus about a 75 or 80. And WW has more movement, Spd, and Dex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 By the way, as I understand it, Class 100 means the ability to "press" 100 tons or more, routinely. Converted to Hero system terms, which defines the amount a character can more or less dead lift, this would basically equate to a 65+ STR rather than 60+. #pedantmode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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