Speedster Defense against Area Attacks?

[massey]

I think you're combining two different moments during the fight into one.  Watch it again (the relevant moment is from 1:37-1:45).  Grodd doesn't actually grab and squeeze until later in the fight, at the 2-minute mark:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-AidZY6cgo

 

I could see the first moment interpreted as a Grab and immediate Throw.  But I could also see it interpreted as the effect of a successful Block.

 

 The first one looks like a Martial Throw to me.  Grodd had a held action and surprised Flash with it.  The second was just a grab.  Flash was dumb and ended his phase next to Grodd.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Let large objects give the Brick an OCV bonus based on size, rather than  become an autohit, and the playing field is much more level. 

 

 

That's how I've always done it.  In fact I was not aware of a rule that makes big objects just an AE attack existed (scuffs foot).

[BoloOfEarth]

 The first one looks like a Martial Throw to me.  Grodd had a held action and surprised Flash with it. 

 

I was initially thinking along the same lines, except I didn't think of Grodd as a martial artist.

 

I guess my main point is, with Hero there's more than one way (often a dozen+ ways) to get to Toledo.  I'm not going to argue that my interpretation is the only right one.

 

In-game, I would expect an awesome scene like that to occur after somebody rolled either a critical success or failure.  (So Flash could have made a critical failure on his Move-Through to-hit roll, or Grodd has a defensive power that requires a roll [extra DCV levels based on telepathic Danger Sense?] or did some defensive maneuver and he rolled a critical success.)  At least in my Champions campaign, a scene like that would have been due to GM description of the actual effects as the player is banging his head on the table due to his bad luck.

[Christopher R Taylor]

When people write speedsters, they usually violate logic and the reasonable powers of the character just to make some manner of challenge possible.  It has always annoyed me and its why I can't watch the Flash TV show even though I kind of enjoyed it.  There's too many "what the???" Moments where its painfully obvious there's no way in hell that would work or make the slightest sense, but was done just to give the Flash a challenge.

 

In a Champions game, things have to work a bit differently.  In the first place, if someone built the most powerful version of the Flash he'd be like 1500 points and would completely dominate not just the campaign but 4 others at the same time.

[BoloOfEarth]

That's how I've always done it.  In fact I was not aware of a rule that makes big objects just an AE attack existed (scuffs foot).

 

I don't have Champions Complete on PDF so I can't check it at work, but per 6E2 p. 174, the GM can either consider large objects an AoE attack (equal to the size and shape of the object), or give the attacker an OCV bonus based on the size of the improvised weapon.  I've generally used the first option, but can see the benefits to the second option.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Usable at Range on Lockpicking?

 

I could actually kind of see this one, although a bit of stretching with the "no connection" makes more sense.

[Roter Baron]

Maybe I should study the rules more ... would save you guys time to answer my stupid questions.

 

But here is another one: According to the rule on page 174 it is stated that even if you treat large objects as an Area Attack the tarteg "can oftne Dodge this sort of attack. (...) Of course, tragets can also Dive for Cocer if they prefer."

 

Now here is the thing: Dodge and Dive for Cover are both manuevers that take half an action (or you can Abort to take them). Dodge is usually no good against an Area Attack. DCV 3 is the to-hit-number for an Area Attack. Almost all heroes (and certainly 100% of superheroes - and speedsters in their sleep) can beat that DCV by their basic, unmodified DCV.

Written as is that would mean that a character with a DCV of 1-infinite is hit, unless he performs the Dodge Maneuver.

Then he escapes automatically.

If he for some reason wants to dive for cover, he could still fail the Dex-Check and be hit.

So, how does that rule work?

 

Not treating large objects as AE-attacks also makes it impossible to hit multiple targets unless the character does the Sweep maneuver and uses the bonus he gets by the largeness of the object to offset the multiple penalties for attacking 8 VIPER-agents als cramming in one place.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I really don't know why they put dodge in there, honestly.

 

But when it comes to using big enough objects against an area, I guess I've been treating them as a nonselective AE, so the attacker rolls to hit against everyone in the area, but has a bonus for size.

[massey]

When people write speedsters, they usually violate logic and the reasonable powers of the character just to make some manner of challenge possible.  It has always annoyed me and its why I can't watch the Flash TV show even though I kind of enjoyed it.  There's too many "what the???" Moments where its painfully obvious there's no way in hell that would work or make the slightest sense, but was done just to give the Flash a challenge.

 

In a Champions game, things have to work a bit differently.  In the first place, if someone built the most powerful version of the Flash he'd be like 1500 points and would completely dominate not just the campaign but 4 others at the same time.

 

The first is true with a lot of super powers.  When it is good writing, you don't notice it.  When it is bad writing, it is glaring.

 

The second depends on what campaign the speedster is in.  The Flash has oodles of movement, a lot of versatility, and is pretty hard to hit.  But he usually doesn't hit as hard as people like Superman or GL, and he can't take much of a hit either.

[Hyper-Man]

There is a martial art maneuver that was pretty much created for speedsters (there is no real world equivalent for it that I am aware of):

 

 Flying Dodge      1/2     --     +4      Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove

 

Note that this is BETTER than DFC since no Roll is necessary.  It's a 5 point maneuver.

[Comic]

And here's the oddity of how my thinking works.

 

I'm perfectly fine with a 5 pt martial maneuver, Flying Dodge, that allows a speedster or martial artist to dodge even AoE. Nimble as Spiderman diving through the windows of a bus and clinging to it when the Hulk tries to smash him with it. Agile as the Flash running up the side of the building as it crashes down on him.

 

I'm not okay with AoE on DCV, even if it costs over seven times as much and doesn't give a free abortable full move and the ability to use 3 pt CSL's defensively. (Well, really, about three times as much, since the maneuver is only +4 DCV.)

 

Because Game Logic and tunnel vision.

[Balabanto]

There is a martial art maneuver that was pretty much created for speedsters (there is no real world equivalent for it that I am aware of):

 

 Flying Dodge      1/2     --     +4      Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove

 

Note that this is BETTER than DFC since no Roll is necessary.  It's a 5 point maneuver.

 

That wasn't put in there for speedsters. It was put in there so you could have cool flying Wuxia combats on the side of a mountain.

[assault]

That wasn't put in there for speedsters. It was put in there so you could have cool flying Wuxia combats on the side of a mountain.

 

Those kinds of Wuxia fighters are speedsters. Just in a different genre.

[assault]

A couple of points:

 

1. Speedsters need to be able to take a certain amount of damage if they are to be viable in a game. They will get hit.

 

2. A speedster that only hits and runs is a beginning speedster. Adding speedster tricks to a multipower is cheap enough to be realistically done with earned experience. That means that after a while a speedster can have Desol, Invisibility, Ranged Attacks, Images... Any of these can reduce the frequency of the character being hit by a bus. Life's tough at the beginning of his/her career though.

[Hyper-Man]

That wasn't put in there for speedsters. It was put in there so you could have cool flying Wuxia combats on the side of a mountain.

 

Then why are 2 of the 3 examples provided in the 5e and 6e Martial Arts books Speedster examples?

 

UMA 5e has 2 examples of it in the Fictional Martial Arts section:

Drunken Clown Kung Fu on page 66

Speedster Martial Arts on page 71

 

Hero System MA 6e has 1 example of it in the Fictional Martial Arts Styles section:

Hypercombat Martial Arts on page 83

[Christopher R Taylor]

I actually never saw those as either, its just a moving dodge; not as much defense as a full dodge but with the advantage of mobility.  I could see any martial artist who's trained in a highly kinetic, mobile style using it.  I mean it works well for a speedster but I can see it used by a lot of people.

[Hyper-Man]

One really good reason to limit what characters have access to Flying Dodge is the fact that its use means an AUTOMATIC miss from any HTH attack (because the Full Move happens FIRST).

 

The way I evaluate whether a character should be allowed to purchase it is to determine if they already have 'enough' movement abilities purchased that adding Flying Dodge for 5 points could be considered to be like purchasing a Framework Slot.

[procyon]

Part of the problem, IMO, is that the "grab an object" rules are much too generous to high STR characters.  In the comics, when the Hulk swings a bus at Spiderman, he nimbly leaps, feet first, through two windows, emerging from the other side of the bus unharmed, or just Clings to the bus as old Jade Jaws swings it around.  He swings a lamppost?  Spidey jumps over it or ducks under it.  Hulk is reliant on a lucky shot.

 

In Hero Combat?  Spidey is DCV 3 - SPLAT!

 

Let large objects give the Brick an OCV bonus based on size, rather than  become an autohit, and the playing field is much more level. 

I really like that mechanic.

Letting a brick grab whatever handy object is nearby, and turn the 'hard to hit, combat specalist' into a target as easily hit as 'Joe Normal' - has never sat well with me.  Allowing the large object to simply add to OCV is pretty much perfect to me.  Just like in 4e, that doubling size dropped your DCV by 2 - making the flip side that an object that size provides the same bonus to OCV. 

 

Very nice.

[Ragitsu]

How do you play a truly untouchable speedster ?

[薔薇語]

How do you play a truly untouchable speedster ?

 

Purchase Desolidification of course. Have you even read the rules book? ^^

 

La Rose. 

[Hyper-Man]

I was going to suggest naming the speedster Elliot Ness.

[massey]

I was going to say have him be part of the Indian caste system.

[zslane]

Give the Speedster Desol and make all his attacks usable while Desolid. Sure, it's expensive and most GMs would never allow it, but if you want to make a Speedster that is as ridiculously overpowered as The Flash, then that's what it takes.

[assault]

The Flash has never been untouchable. Every single version gets/got taken out regularly.

 

He's one of the easier JLA members to model in Hero. Like all of them, he occasionally comes out with effects that have to be treated as poetic license.

 

(The ones that I struggle with are Aquaman and Hawkman).

[Ragitsu]

"Desolidification" could work, but it feels...I don't know...cheap?

 

I'd rather have the speedster be able to zip by and simply be way too fast without these attributes merely being descriptive special effects of a power that thematically seems decidedly un-speedster like outside of "phasing through walls" stunts .