Speedster Defense against Area Attacks?

[Roter Baron]

The problem. You have a speester with Dex 33, DCV 14, SPD 8 and Running/ Flight beyond good reason - the character is usually acting first and more often than any other combatant and with All Combat levels in DCV very hard to hit by anyone, dodging punches and bullets left and right.

 

But you don't usually suvive one lousy turn with a Brick because - using high strength and a convenient enviroment - the Brick just waits till you acted first in a given segment he has a phase with you (or saves his action) and clubbers you with a car/ bus/tank Area attack to kingdom come!

 

In other games there are reactions like Saving Throws but HERO does not have this mechanic. Abort to to defensive action is the closest we have but that is no good on a segment you have already acted in.

So what am I supposed to do? Save actions and stand around and wait till Mr. Sack-of-Lead has finally done something so that I can either Dive for Cover or do something? Does not really give me a The Flash-feeling.

 

Any ideas on this Speedster dilemma?

[Hyper-Man]

I think you answered your own question. 

 

The dilemma you describe is one of the reasons I built my rookie Flash with a 6 SPD and a VPP slot that gives him access to up to +5 Overall Levels that could be applied to any DFC attempt.

 

A speedster using Move By or Passing Strike are a kind of defense as well as arguably the character will be several steps beyond the target once their DEX comes up.

 

If HERO/Champions players stopped thinking of Phases as the equivalent to other games' "Round" and instead made the Turn the equivalent, then a lot of your issues disappear as well.

[Grailknight]

End your move behind cover, out of LOS or in the midst of the Brick's team.

 

Buy your defenses differently, get Damage Reduction vs Physical, SFX-high speed dodging.

 

You can minimize a weakness without totally negating it.

[zslane]

Even Speedsters get hit. If they aren't carefully planning their moves, saved Phases, and abort opportunities, they are eventually going to get nailed like any other character. Part of the reason to have an 8 SPD is so that you have lots of extra Phases, compared with everyone else, to blow on defensive aborts when necessary. And as mentioned already, CSLs bought only for DCV can help simulate the "hard to hit even when he can't cognitively react to every attack" feeling you are going for.

[Hyper-Man]

And if the Speedster is going to attack a Brick in a 1 on 1 fight he needs to do something decisive*.  Indecisive offense is what will get the Speedster in trouble.

 

*Not necessarily damaging either. An attack that does extra Knocback or a Throw that leaves the target prone can be a valid tactic as well.

[Greywind]

[zslane]

Yeah, I had that image in my head too. But I think a lot of Flash fans were surprised to see Grodd grab the Flash's supersonic punch.

 

I think game rules must, out of necessity, impose a degree of formal consistency and artificial structure on superhero combat that comic books or movies do not. Many of the things that we see Justice League characters do are simply "game busting", and probably shouldn't be so eagerly pursued in the name of genre authenticity.

[BoloOfEarth]

Hmmm...  To represent the speedster "dodge/roll with it at the last second" he could have Damage Reduction 75% normal Physical with Requires a DEX roll, Must be aware of Attack, Side Effect (character takes 2d6 Knockback in random direction and falls down) and maybe Costs Half END.  If he spent the END that phase, he's got some protection from automotive flyswatters.  If not, well, sucks to be him.

 

Alternately, he could have a short-range Teleportation with a Trigger to get him out of the way (no time to set, automatic reset).  But I kinda like the Damage Reduction.  It's not a free pass.  The speedster takes a small amount of damage and is prone for a bit, putting him at a short-term disadvantage without getting flattened like a pancake.

[BoloOfEarth]

Yeah, I had that image in my head too. But I think a lot of Flash fans were surprised to see Grodd grab the Flash's supersonic punch.

 

That's what you get when you try a Noncombat Move-Through, counting on surprise to offset your lower OCV, and your opponent has a Held Action, isn't surprised (a telepathic gorilla might just know what Flash was going to try) and makes a good Block roll.

[Hyper-Man]

Hmmm...  To represent the speedster "dodge/roll with it at the last second" he could have Damage Reduction 75% normal Physical with Requires a DEX roll, Must be aware of Attack, Side Effect (character takes 2d6 Knockback in random direction and falls down) and maybe Costs Half END.  If he spent the END that phase, he's got some protection from automotive flyswatters.  If not, well, sucks to be him.

 

Alternately, he could have a short-range Teleportation with a Trigger to get him out of the way (no time to set, automatic reset).  But I kinda like the Damage Reduction.  It's not a free pass.  The speedster takes a small amount of damage and is prone for a bit, putting him at a short-term disadvantage without getting flattened like a pancake.

 

If this is an ability outside of a framework I would argue that the character would need to purchase the Energy version as well.

 

A half measure version on a similar theme would be to have Damage Negation in a Framework.

 

Example from my version of Flash's VPP that allows for 2 slots to be used simultaneously:

 

 

0 11) Superspeed Molecular Control v1: Desolidification , Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; VPP as Variable Advantage - can be swapped out for Reduced Endurance 0 END; +1/2), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Grantor controls the power totally, Grantor must grant power one Recipient at a time. (60 Active Points); Perceivable (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) Real Cost: 40 [Notes: Allows him to carry 1 person or object while Deslosidified.] - END=6

 

0 12) Superspeed Molecular Control v2: Damage Negation (-6 DCs Physical, -6 DCs Energy) (60 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) Real Cost: 40 - END=6

 

0 13) Superspeed Molecular Control v3: Resistant Protection (10 PD/10 ED) (Protect Carried Items), Hardened (+1/4), Impenetrable (+1/4) (60 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) Real Cost: 40 - END=6

 

 

6d6 Damage Negation is not nearly as good as 3/4 Damage Reduction but it will usually keep the character from taking massive damage.

[zslane]

That's what you get when you try a Noncombat Move-Through, counting on surprise to offset your lower OCV, and your opponent has a Held Action, isn't surprised (a telepathic gorilla might just know what Flash was going to try) and makes a good Block roll.

I suppose. I'm just not sure I like the idea of allowing a Grab of an object the size of a baseball, travelling at supersonic speed, to be the "special effect" of a simple Block maneuver. After all, the result was not simply the avoidance of the Move-Through attack/damage, but a Held opponent, followed by a STR squeeze.

[massey]

I suppose. I'm just not sure I like the idea of allowing a Grab of an object the size of a baseball, travelling at supersonic speed, to be the "special effect" of a simple Block maneuver. After all, the result was not simply the avoidance of the Move-Through attack/damage, but a Held opponent, followed by a STR squeeze.

 

I haven't seen the show, but theoretically a Spd 5 Grodd could have held his action, blocked on say segment 7, delayed the Flash's action on 8 until after his own (via the block) and then successfully grabbed him.  I also think there's a "Grabbing Block" martial arts maneuver.

[Comic]

It's a Translation Folly to try to be the Flash.

 

The Flash is practically a god, depending on the version and era.

 

Such high speed he's effectively Desolid vs area effect attacks if he sees them coming (but can't pass through solid objects) is a good way to get the Flash ability to dodge even huge attacks, and balances in game mechanics.

 

But really, if Flash is going up against Hulk, he ought to lose. If he's attacking a smart or versatile enough Brick on similar points, a Speedster ought expect to feel some pain, at least some of the time, in the long run. That he's likely already the most combat effective character in the campaign ought be some comfort to your Speedster.

 

And also, yes, it's smart for Speedsters to rope-a-dope their way out of problems, rather than just pay points.

 

The Brick is waiting for a vulnerable moment? Deny it. Find another way. Use another technique. Be stealthy. Be nimble. Do something unexpected the slower Brick can't anticipate.

[Balabanto]

The problem. You have a speester with Dex 33, DCV 14, SPD 8 and Running/ Flight beyond good reason - the character is usually acting first and more often than any other combatant and with All Combat levels in DCV very hard to hit by anyone, dodging punches and bullets left and right.

 

But you don't usually suvive one lousy turn with a Brick because - using high strength and a convenient enviroment - the Brick just waits till you acted first in a given segment he has a phase with you (or saves his action) and clubbers you with a car/ bus/tank Area attack to kingdom come!

 

In other games there are reactions like Saving Throws but HERO does not have this mechanic. Abort to to defensive action is the closest we have but that is no good on a segment you have already acted in.

So what am I supposed to do? Save actions and stand around and wait till Mr. Sack-of-Lead has finally done something so that I can either Dive for Cover or do something? Does not really give me a The Flash-feeling.

 

Any ideas on this Speedster dilemma?

 

It's not supposed to be an idea. It's supposed to be the character's weakness.

[zslane]

I haven't seen the show, but theoretically a Spd 5 Grodd could have held his action, blocked on say segment 7, delayed the Flash's action on 8 until after his own (via the block) and then successfully grabbed him.  I also think there's a "Grabbing Block" martial arts maneuver.

Well, I did see the show, and the event depicted 100% resembles Grabbing a Moving Target, not a Block. Just saying...

[Hugh Neilson]

Part of the problem, IMO, is that the "grab an object" rules are much too generous to high STR characters.  In the comics, when the Hulk swings a bus at Spiderman, he nimbly leaps, feet first, through two windows, emerging from the other side of the bus unharmed, or just Clings to the bus as old Jade Jaws swings it around.  He swings a lamppost?  Spidey jumps over it or ducks under it.  Hulk is reliant on a lucky shot.

 

In Hero Combat?  Spidey is DCV 3 - SPLAT!

 

Let large objects give the Brick an OCV bonus based on size, rather than  become an autohit, and the playing field is much more level. 

[massey]

I think most of the time in comics, speedy characters hold action when it is the brick's phase.

[Christopher R Taylor]

With enough speed you can hold pretty much whenever you want and still act faster than everyone else, but here's the power I built into a speedster character for someone.  Its a bit of a munchkin trick:

 

Teleport 20m, trigger (perceive area effect attack), can be reset, takes no time to go off or to reset, cannot go through solid objects, only with trigger.  Its not too terribly expensive to get out of just about any AE that way.  You don't even need a phase, basically its a super dive for cover, as long as you're aware of it.

 

But honestly, area effect attacks are just bout the only weakness speedsters have, except mental attacks I suppose (and END drains, depending).  So its okay to have one hole in your armor.

[Roter Baron]

Part of the problem, IMO, is that the "grab an object" rules are much too generous to high STR characters.  In the comics, when the Hulk swings a bus at Spiderman, he nimbly leaps, feet first, through two windows, emerging from the other side of the bus unharmed, or just Clings to the bus as old Jade Jaws swings it around.  He swings a lamppost?  Spidey jumps over it or ducks under it.  Hulk is reliant on a lucky shot.

 

In Hero Combat?  Spidey is DCV 3 - SPLAT!

 

Let large objects give the Brick an OCV bonus based on size, rather than  become an autohit, and the playing field is much more level. 

 

That is a nice idea for speedster combat. And super-DEX-/ high DCV- characters.

 

To make it clear: I am not looking for a way to make speedsters ultra-powerful or invulnerable I only find it odd that someone who has a DCV that allows him to dodge lasers is unable to dodge a trown truck. With a OCV-Bonus (modified by size and maybe shape) this is problem is solved.

 

Thank you all, guys!

[Tech]

I have always used a bonus to OCV to people using large objects to try to hit others with it. I've never made an opponent DCV 3 just because you're swinging a hex (or larger) sized object.

[薔薇語]

If yout goal is to avoid some effects of AoE attacks, you could buy some levels of DcV with AoE one hex and selective. This will boost your hex up and you could say the spfx is just you dodging even AoE attacks with the same flare as you do normal ones.

 

La Rose.

[Comic]

If yout goal is to avoid some effects of AoE attacks, you could buy some levels of DcV with AoE one hex and selective. This will boost your hex up and you could say the spfx is just you dodging even AoE attacks with the same flare as you do normal ones.

 

La Rose.

 

Uh.. Wut?

 

The AoE advantage on skill levels is henky enough; on DCV?!

 

Should I get Penetrating on my Charm skill?

 

Usable at Range on Lockpicking?

 

Armor Piercing on .. heh. Penetrating Charm sounds kinda funny when you think about it!

 

I'd be very dubious of this power build.

[薔薇語]

Let me further elaborate.

 

Your PC wants a DCV of 13 vs attacks that are targeted or AoE. He buys 10levels of DcV at 50 points base. He then applies AoE One Hex (1/2) and selective (1/4). Active and real cost then comes to 87 points. He will always have a 13 DcV (personal base of three / hex base of three PLUS ten). The character is now hard to hit regardless of type of attack but his hex is still easy to destroy as he is applying the DcV only to himself. Double check my math and adders as I am doing this quickly from my phone.

 

If the character wants his personal DCV to be higher, then he can buy up his normal DCV. If he wants his AoE defense to be greater than his personal, he can either sell back his base three DcV or apply an 'only vs AoE' lim on his DcV power. Maybe at a -1/2 lim rate depending on your GM.

 

La Rose.

[薔薇語]

Why be dubious of it. And if it is built the way I suggest, it is a fair chunk of points and hardly unbalancing.

 

 

If a character could show me rationale for having penetrating on Charm, I would listen. Just because it is odd doesn't mean it can't be done. That said the mechanical effects of pen don't really mesh up with charm. That is the hard sell. DcV and AoE mesh up well.

 

And lock picking at range sounds perfectly usuable. Perhaps it is a TK user thief who can sense through their TK. Makes perfect sense to put on Range. I might just allow them to use their skill through their pre established detect and TK powers, though. Adding the advantage seems unneeded for the desired effect, but who knows. There is no good way, however, to replicate the same basic effect of DCV withought using DCV, on whole and in particular to the above case.

 

La Rose.

[BoloOfEarth]

I suppose. I'm just not sure I like the idea of allowing a Grab of an object the size of a baseball, travelling at supersonic speed, to be the "special effect" of a simple Block maneuver. After all, the result was not simply the avoidance of the Move-Through attack/damage, but a Held opponent, followed by a STR squeeze.

 

 

Well, I did see the show, and the event depicted 100% resembles Grabbing a Moving Target, not a Block. Just saying...

 

I think you're combining two different moments during the fight into one.  Watch it again (the relevant moment is from 1:37-1:45).  Grodd doesn't actually grab and squeeze until later in the fight, at the 2-minute mark:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-AidZY6cgo

 

I could see the first moment interpreted as a Grab and immediate Throw.  But I could also see it interpreted as the effect of a successful Block.