Speedster Defense against Area Attacks?

[Hyper-Man]

Teleportation with Must Pass Through Intervening Space is a great way of having a speedster move so fast that opponents can't see where he went.

[Comic]

Damage Negation "He Never Laid a Finger On Me" works as a defense with the special effect of too fast to hit.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Clairvoyance works well for scouting areas really fast, put mobile on it and he can zip around a building so quick nobody even sees him!  Have to limit it to "places he can run to" also.

[Comic]

I could make an argument for a speedster time dilation Change Environment that essentially shrinks AoE attacks by Relativistic effects, though I imagine it would be pretty hard to referee the exact build.

[assault]

I could make an argument for a speedster time dilation Change Environment that essentially shrinks AoE attacks by Relativistic effects, though I imagine it would be pretty hard to referee the exact build.

 

That sounds like trying too hard to me. Simple is good.

[Christopher]

The problem. You have a speester with Dex 33, DCV 14, SPD 8 and Running/ Flight beyond good reason - the character is usually acting first and more often than any other combatant and with All Combat levels in DCV very hard to hit by anyone, dodging punches and bullets left and right.

 

But you don't usually suvive one lousy turn with a Brick because - using high strength and a convenient enviroment - the Brick just waits till you acted first in a given segment he has a phase with you (or saves his action) and clubbers you with a car/ bus/tank Area attack to kingdom come!

 

In other games there are reactions like Saving Throws but HERO does not have this mechanic. Abort to to defensive action is the closest we have but that is no good on a segment you have already acted in.

So what am I supposed to do? Save actions and stand around and wait till Mr. Sack-of-Lead has finally done something so that I can either Dive for Cover or do something? Does not really give me a The Flash-feeling.

 

Any ideas on this Speedster dilemma?

I think you are missunderstanding several points:

- Being able to act first does not mean you HAVE to act first. You can also just use your early action to hold a phase to do something disruptive to aid your team. A held action can do so much more then a Aborted action every could. And you could still abort to that held action and keep your following phase.

Players in MMO's keep stupidly rushing in before the tank, like they are Dire Lemmings on Speed. Don't be the Dire Lemming.

If you try your hardest to isolate yourself in the enemy team, with no ally havng a phase yet to assist you will succeed. Just stop trying and the issue will vanish.

 

- You have many phases. So you can afford to spend more phases recovering from being stunned or aborting to defense.

 

- When the heck is the brick supposed to attack your character if not a that point? You got more phases then him so you can easily abort to dodge/dive for cover every time and still get around to attack eventually.

The only time a brick has a decent chance at hitting the speedster is the segment he can not abort in or a held action.

 

- As others pointed out, Move-b/t are effectively defensive manevuers. Nothing beats damage prevention like being too far away for the attack. And HTH-Attacks have a notorious low range.

[Pattern Ghost]

Then why are 2 of the 3 examples provided in the 5e and 6e Martial Arts books Speedster examples?

 

UMA 5e has 2 examples of it in the Fictional Martial Arts section:

Drunken Clown Kung Fu on page 66

Speedster Martial Arts on page 71

 

Hero System MA 6e has 1 example of it in the Fictional Martial Arts Styles section:

Hypercombat Martial Arts on page 83

 

The maneuver was introduced in 4th Edition Ninja Hero. So, those examples don't exactly support your theory that it was introduced for speedsters.

 

I'm not saying this disproves your hypothesis, just that you need to go back to the source. Unfortunately, I don't have my copy handy. It's still hiding in a box around here somewhere.

 

It's kind of a chicken and egg argument anyway. Were all the new FMove maneuvers added for speedsters, or were they just the obvious choices when assembling the speedster martial arts list? Probably a little of both.

 

Unfortunately, only the author knew for sure, and we lost him some time ago.

 

Though it's possible someone like Steve or Darren were around at the time and could shed light on the question.

[Hyper-Man]

The maneuver was introduced in 4th Edition Ninja Hero. So, those examples don't exactly support your theory that it was introduced for speedsters.

 

I'm not saying this disproves your hypothesis, just that you need to go back to the source. Unfortunately, I don't have my copy handy. It's still hiding in a box around here somewhere.

 

It's kind of a chicken and egg argument anyway. Were all the new FMove maneuvers added for speedsters, or were they just the obvious choices when assembling the speedster martial arts list? Probably a little of both.

 

Unfortunately, only the author knew for sure, and we lost him some time ago.

 

Though it's possible someone like Steve or Darren were around at the time and could shed light on the question.

 

I don't own a copy of Ninja Hero 4e and I didn't realize till now that Aaron Allston wrote it in 1990 which makes me sad.  I would be willing to bet $20 that Aaron had a similar idea about archtype restrictions since he wrote one the defining books on the subject in Strike Force.  Hopefully someone who has a copy of the original Ninja Hero book can give us some insight.

 

I do own UMA 4e and it was written by Steve Long and edited by Bruce Harlick in 1994. The only examples of Flying Dodge in it are in the Fictional Styles section (Drunken Clown Kung Fu on page 77 and Korogi Taijutsu on page 92) practiced by acrobats and leaping ninjas respectively.  The book doesn't provide any Superhero Martial Art examples. I think Acrobats and Leaping Ninjas are just limited instances of the speedster archtype and still fits my theory.

[zslane]

Hmm. I regard Acrobats and Leaping Ninjas as full instances of the martial artist archetype. That doesn't really lend credence to the notion that maneuvers designed originally for them were also designed with speedsters in mind.

[Pattern Ghost]

I don't own a copy of Ninja Hero 4e and I didn't realize till now that Aaron Allston wrote it in 1990 which makes me sad.  I would be willing to bet $20 that Aaron had a similar idea about archtype restrictions since he wrote one the defining books on the subject in Strike Force.  Hopefully someone who has a copy of the original Ninja Hero book can give us some insight.

 

Ditto on the sadness. He went too young. As for the book, I do have a copy somewhere, but just moved last month so it's in a box. Hopefully, I'll dig it out sometime this coming week. If I do, I'll take a look at it and report back, unless someone beats me to it.

[Hyper-Man]

Hmm. I regard Acrobats and Leaping Ninjas as full instances of the martial artist archetype. That doesn't really lend credence to the notion that maneuvers designed originally for them were also designed with speedsters in mind.

 

So what other litmus test would you use before allowing a PC Martial Artist to purchase Flying Dodge* in a Champions game? 

 

*Note that its use creates an automatic miss by ANY HTH attack due to the Full Move element.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It only creates an automatic miss on the phase its used.  Handy, but not over the top.

[薔薇語]

One option people don't seem to consider much is that a Speedster like Flash could just have a normal DcV but a really high PD and ED. The special effect is that he evades the attacks. Even when hit he wriggles out of the bulk of the hit. Maybe slap on a -1/4 restrainable lim to show he needs to be mobile. That build paradigm avoids the whole AoE limitation.

La Rose.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Damage reduction works well for that effect as well, you just can't get a solid hit on the speedster

[Hugh Neilson]

It only creates an automatic miss on the phase its used.  Handy, but not over the top.

If I needed an 11- to hit, Martial Dodge means I need a 6-. That's a pretty likely miss, as well. Although Flying Dodge gives me one "get out of HTH free" card, I get a bit less DCV. More expensive (but not in a Multipower slot!), I can Abort to Desolid and be immune to most attacks (and I can Dodge in the same Abort, and reassign skill levels to DCV).

 

Neither Dodge nor Desolid requires me to spend a half phase next time getting back into range of my opponent either.

[TheQuestionMan]

Desolidification

 

Only vs Percieved Attacks

 

Cannot Pasd Through Solid Objects

 

Only vs Area Effect Attacks

 

Hmmm... Is there a Dark Champions write up for this!

[薔薇語]

Desolid isn't a bad idea to have for avoiding attacks. Actually, I would say that if you have a Flash like Speedster, then you might as well just go with Desolid and not bother with the "not to pass through objects" as the Flash often does that exact thing. So he could get the defensive and movement bonus of Desolid and thus focus less on DcV, PD, or defensive maneuvers. 

 

La Rose. 

[Hyper-Man]

I think there are always going to be situations where one option is better than the other (example: grabbing an innocent bystander to save them as well).  There's little reason for a speedster NOT have both options to choose from.  If nothing else, the traditional Flying Dodge (or Flying Grab?) is likely going to cost less END since most Speedsters have Reduced END on their Running but not necessarily on their fancier tricks like Desolidification.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm a lot more comfortable with the dodge option than the desolid option for a variety of reasons, but it is up to the concept.

[Lucius]

So what other litmus test would you use before allowing a PC Martial Artist to purchase Flying Dodge* in a Champions game? 

 

*Note that its use creates an automatic miss by ANY HTH attack due to the Full Move element.

 

Hm. I take it you're allowing someone to abort to flying dodge and actually take the movement as well as the DCV?

 

Is that legal?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Flying Palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

excepts from Hero System Martial Arts page 245:

 

Flying Dodge does not require a character to succeed with a DEX Roll or end up prone, the way Dive For Cover does.

If a character Aborts to a Fyling Dodge, he gets the Full Move worth of movement normally associated with the Maneuver.

 

If a character uses Flying Dodge to try to avoid a Ranged non-Area-affecting attack, he still gets to move and still gets a DCV bonus from the Maneuver, but he's not automatically missed - the attacker still gets to roll to hit (unlike with Dive For Cover, where the attack would automatically miss). If it's a HTH attack, the Attack Roll is typically irrelevant (since the character won't be in HTH Combat range any longer), but the GM can rule otherwise if it's appropriate for the situation.

 

[Ragitsu]

How big of an "area attack" are we talking about?

 

Even low-level speedsters ought to avoid getting tagged by the concussive and fragmented metal blast radius of an M67.