A Look At The Evolution of Champions/Hero

[Tasha]

Hero is a RPG programing Language. There are great supplements that have APIs (Advanced Programing Interfaces) to make programing different genres easier, but few if any supplements that use the language to build a game that is ready to play. 

It lives in a sea of RPGs that are pre programed and ready to play. Those games are "good enough" to keep gamers from wanting to learn how to build a game from parts.

Hero's fanbase are totally comfortable with building their own games, but IMHO it seems like many of the oldest fans are getting system fatigue and are succumbing to the lure of games that are ready to play and that have fans willing to play them. Also the rest of the fans are VERY VERY resistant to the idea of using the System to build games that are totally built and ready to go. They want the ability to modify anything built with the system. Often saying that having a totally prebuilt game violates the core or soul of the game system.

[Nolgroth]

Hero's fanbase are totally comfortable with building their own games, but IMHO it seems like many of the oldest fans are getting system fatigue and are succumbing to the lure of games that are ready to play and that have fans willing to play them. Also the rest of the fans are VERY VERY resistant to the idea of using the System to build games that are totally built and ready to go. They want the ability to modify anything built with the system. Often saying that having a totally prebuilt game violates the core or soul of the game system.

 

I fall into the 'system fatigue' group but it is far less about the system than the constant deconstruction of the system. I can't help but click the thread links, read the posts and offer my own opinions. The problem is that I am ever more being convinced by all the deconstruction threads that Hero is irrecoverably broken. I also am of the opinion that part of that irrecoverable part is because there is an old guard that refuses to entertain any idea that might nudge the system away from what it currently embodies. I try to build a character these days and it is not fun. I hate the very concept of deconstructionism, while at the same time participating in it. Seems like an unhealthy relationship to have with this system.

 

Yeah...

[assault]

using the System to build games that are totally built and ready to go.

 

I don't fully understand what you mean here. Could you explain a little?

[TheDarkness]

On another thread, I pointed out that the martial manuevers are entirely a pre-build, not a build your own, yet you could build a martial arts system with granularity without using the pre-build.

 

It seems to me a good model for building a simple approach, prebuilds for teleporters, blasters, bricks, etc., while keeping a granularity that players using the prebuilds could totally play with as they go along and customize.

[Brian Stanfield]

Cool stuff. I can even remember those olden days!

[Lucius]

"Deconstruction?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Constructing a palindromedary tagline

[Doc Democracy]

I don't fully understand what you mean here. Could you explain a little?

 

This has been the core of a lot of previous threads.  It should be possible, for example, to launch Glorantha HERO.  It would eb a single book allowing GMs and players to game in Glorantha where all of the design decisions etc have already been made, where character building is described in the book (tweaked to give a good Glorantha experience but ideally not looking anything like a HERO character sheet and potentially completely hiding all the point cost stuff that dominates a HERO sheet).

 

A lot of the terminology in Glorantha HERO might be different to that in the core rules even if it does exactly the same thing.  Players would have no obvious option to build their own characters from scratch and the experience system might constrain how characters grow (or rather push them to grow in Gloranthan ways rather than HERO ones).

 

Effectively all of the mechanics would be HERO but they would be hidden by a covering of Glorantha and, unless you were a HERO afficionado, might be completely unrecognisable.  All that would be necessary would be a flash on the front cover saying "powered by HERO System".

 

There could/should/would be a GM addendum available as PDF to explain the design decisions and how it all worked that would allow someone with the core rules to tweak and change stuff to their hearts content but there should be no need to know HERO, it should be playable from that book.

 

I think that is what Tasha means...

 

:-)

 

Doc

[Scott Ruggels2]

As one of the original members of "Doug's Thugs" in the fantasy Hero playtest, it was eye opening to me how flexible the system could be for running fantasy. L. Douglas Garret ran the game  from around 1985, until he left for Japan in 1997 or so, every Sunday at what ever place he was living at the time.  on average, every two or three years he would cycle the campaign, and come up with a new background, and he really gave the system a workout, often a background emulating some aspect from a series of fantasy novels that the group liked. He made what seemed to be the downside of a toolbox system an advantage, as he (as I do) grooved on worldbuilding.  The amount of maps generated, and write up was amazing. I also would generate about a file drawer's worth of material per campaign. It may be that the limiting factor for Hero is that it requires a world builder, or at least a fairly detailed genre book to run. Simple adventures aren't enough, unless there is a supporting world book. probably.

 

AS to Doc's illustration above about "Powered by Hero", for a supposed Glorantha game, how is Monster Hunter international doing?

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's where I'm going with my Fantasy Hero setting.  The player and GM books will pretend its a brand new game so everything has to be explained, but the player book will have basics and the Gm book the details.  My dream would be to bundle the GM book with a tutorial intro adventure and the Player book with a character packet, but that takes moola I don't have.

[Scott Ruggels2]

That's where I'm going with my Fantasy Hero setting.  The player and GM books will pretend its a brand new game so everything has to be explained, but the player book will have basics and the Gm book the details.  My dream would be to bundle the GM book with a tutorial intro adventure and the Player book with a character packet, but that takes moola I don't have.

 That's what Kickstarter and a good artist are for XD.  However how hard do you want to hide the origins of the system?Is it economically worth it to pursue a new player base at the expense of the old one? However this is me being curious, not a criticism.

[Spence]

Hero is a RPG programing Language. There are great supplements that have APIs (Advanced Programing Interfaces) to make programing different genres easier, but few if any supplements that use the language to build a game that is ready to play. 

 

It lives in a sea of RPGs that are pre programed and ready to play. Those games are "good enough" to keep gamers from wanting to learn how to build a game from parts.

 

Hero's fanbase are totally comfortable with building their own games, but IMHO it seems like many of the oldest fans are getting system fatigue and are succumbing to the lure of games that are ready to play and that have fans willing to play them. Also the rest of the fans are VERY VERY resistant to the idea of using the System to build games that are totally built and ready to go. They want the ability to modify anything built with the system. Often saying that having a totally prebuilt game violates the core or soul of the game system.

 

Very well put.  This has been a point discussed here for years and usually the Status Que grinds it down until the topic dies.  IMO the main issue is the steadfast refusal by the Old Guard to entertain the concept that the Design/Build/Create part of Hero and the actual in game play part are two distinctly different things.  Unless a person has an opportunity to play a time or two, they really have no idea of just what the results of a build will be.  They have no frame of reference.

 

In the old days most games were rough and in many cases incomplete and the players had to fix things on the fly.  But today RPG products have benefited from the years and most games are complete when released.  Not just complete in the core mechanical rule design, but in setting and player options.  Give the gamer a choice between a game today or a game sometime next year after a painstaking build and 99.9% will pick the former. 

 

 That's what Kickstarter and a good artist are for XD.  However how hard do you want to hide the origins of the system?Is it economically worth it to pursue a new player base at the expense of the old one? However this is me being curious, not a criticism.

 

I think the concept could be explained a little clearer like this.

 

When you buy a Halo game and turn on your Xbox, do you what to see the game spool up or a wall of code and a note indicating that you have the capability to create a cool Halo game? 

 

I am confident that the vast majority of XBox programmer/game coders played a few video games before they began learning the code them.   I know far more people that played in a Savage Worlds complete game world first and then used the genre-less core rules to design their own than people that pick up Savage Worlds Core and designed a campaign flat footed from scratch. 

 

For Cons and one shots I remove the vast majority of build information from the pre-gens because that information is not needed by a novice to actually play and all that extra data is just intimidating noise.   Once a player has payed a few games and has a feel for "how things work" and express interest, I pop open the hood and show how I did I things and prompt them to try their own ideas.  

 

Hero is a great set of meta-rules that allow you to create your worlds.  But handing someone a text book of the current programming language will not prompt them to magically produce the next best selling XBox game by next month.   And expecting new players to not play for several months while they learn Hero "code" instead has established a pretty solid record of "not happening". 

[Hugh Neilson]

To this, the various D&D editions have created more customization in character design, but they provide ready-equipped characters that require limited effort to start playing (characters whose L1 feat, gear, etc. are pre-selected). You can choose different feats, gear, spells, etc. - but here is a character you can just start with.

 

Mutants and Masterminds did the same with template characters.

 

Hero has vastly more potential for customization, but it does not change the need to get players involved in a game. To me, there should be a "Hero System" - that's the real nuts and bolts, the power builds, the 6e 2 volume set telling you all the dials and switches you can set to customize the game rules, etc. etc.

 

But we also need games "Powered by Hero" that don't provide all the tools, just the rules that will be used in this campaign. It's powered by Hero, so all of those customizable mechanics are under the hood. They'd make a great Web add-on for those that want to customize and revise. But the player picks up the Powered by Hero game and has a relatively limited number of choices which are pre-defined, and he can start playing.

 

Maybe he has "Elemental Burst", which is simply an 8d6 Blast, choose SFX of Fire, Acid, Electricity or Cold. The player sees the range (or we ignore it - does anyone ever aim out to maximum range?), casting time (half phase), END cost and the standard spell limitations for the setting (maybe they all have Concentrate, 1/2 DCV, Gestures, Incantations and require a Mystic Signet Ring OIF (because EVERYONE knows that's how spellcasters make magic) or IIF (if at is a closely guarded secret of wizards in the game). If they have Requires a Roll, the penalty to the roll is also indicated.

 

The player gets "This spell fires a burst of elemental energy, inflicting 8d6 of normal damage against its target if the attack hits. The caster can choose whether the energy is Fire, Acid, Electricity or Cold when he casts the spell."

 

The player does not need to see 8d6 Blast, Variable Special Effects, Gestures (1 hand), Incantations, IIF Signet Ring, Concentrate, Requires a Roll (-1/10 AP). And he does not need the choices of removing Variable SFX to be able to use only one type of energy, making the spell easier or harder to cast (reduced or increased END, 2 handed gestures, concentrate 0 DCV, remove this or that limitation, add 2d6, reduce by 2d6 ad infinitum). In this game, Elemental Burst does 8d6 and you choose the energy type. Anyone who can cast it uses the same gestures, incantations, IIF, skill roll et al.

 

And, guaranteed, despite the fact we used the Hero system to stat out a bunch of spells considered more or less equal in power, someone will cry out that a spell is broken, or useless. Or bemoan the fact that their Elemental Burst spell can't be Holy or Profane or Msytic or Force or Sonic. Well, buy the upcoming Grimoire Vol XXVI, and hope we added the spell of your dreams, or buy the System and build your own spells.

 

But just because we have a system for building everything from scratch does not mean we have to require everything be designed from scratch - a perfectly serviceable game can be provided, playable out of the box, and some day we will hear an old guy say "wow, this game feels a lot like that Hero game my old GM forced upon us years ago - but it's way better because no math".

[Hugh Neilson]

Back in the day, reading the rules and building a character was not that onerous. 1e was 64 pages, with 2e a massive 25% increase - 80 pages. The example characters framed the benchmarks.

[Spence]

To this, the various D&D editions have created more customization in character design, but they provide ready-equipped characters that require limited effort to start playing (characters whose L1 feat, gear, etc. are pre-selected). You can choose different feats, gear, spells, etc. - but here is a character you can just start with.

 

Mutants and Masterminds did the same with template characters.

 

Hero has vastly more potential for customization, but it does not change the need to get players involved in a game. To me, there should be a "Hero System" - that's the real nuts and bolts, the power builds, the 6e 2 volume set telling you all the dials and switches you can set to customize the game rules, etc. etc.

 

But we also need games "Powered by Hero" that don't provide all the tools, just the rules that will be used in this campaign. It's powered by Hero, so all of those customizable mechanics are under the hood. They'd make a great Web add-on for those that want to customize and revise. But the player picks up the Powered by Hero game and has a relatively limited number of choices which are pre-defined, and he can start playing.

 

Maybe he has "Elemental Burst", which is simply an 8d6 Blast, choose SFX of Fire, Acid, Electricity or Cold. The player sees the range (or we ignore it - does anyone ever aim out to maximum range?), casting time (half phase), END cost and the standard spell limitations for the setting (maybe they all have Concentrate, 1/2 DCV, Gestures, Incantations and require a Mystic Signet Ring OIF (because EVERYONE knows that's how spellcasters make magic) or IIF (if at is a closely guarded secret of wizards in the game). If they have Requires a Roll, the penalty to the roll is also indicated.

 

The player gets "This spell fires a burst of elemental energy, inflicting 8d6 of normal damage against its target if the attack hits. The caster can choose whether the energy is Fire, Acid, Electricity or Cold when he casts the spell."

 

The player does not need to see 8d6 Blast, Variable Special Effects, Gestures (1 hand), Incantations, IIF Signet Ring, Concentrate, Requires a Roll (-1/10 AP). And he does not need the choices of removing Variable SFX to be able to use only one type of energy, making the spell easier or harder to cast (reduced or increased END, 2 handed gestures, concentrate 0 DCV, remove this or that limitation, add 2d6, reduce by 2d6 ad infinitum). In this game, Elemental Burst does 8d6 and you choose the energy type. Anyone who can cast it uses the same gestures, incantations, IIF, skill roll et al.

 

And, guaranteed, despite the fact we used the Hero system to stat out a bunch of spells considered more or less equal in power, someone will cry out that a spell is broken, or useless. Or bemoan the fact that their Elemental Burst spell can't be Holy or Profane or Msytic or Force or Sonic. Well, buy the upcoming Grimoire Vol XXVI, and hope we added the spell of your dreams, or buy the System and build your own spells.

 

But just because we have a system for building everything from scratch does not mean we have to require everything be designed from scratch - a perfectly serviceable game can be provided, playable out of the box, and some day we will hear an old guy say "wow, this game feels a lot like that Hero game my old GM forced upon us years ago - but it's way better because no math".

I have only one comment.

Yes.

[Spence]

Delete double post

Edited May 6, 2017 by Spence

[Christopher R Taylor]

how hard do you want to hide the origins of the system?Is it economically worth it to pursue a new player base at the expense of the old one? 

 

 

Its going to look pretty similar, and the book will specifically tell people to consult Fantasy Hero for more information.  The idea is to present the book as a complete game rather than a supplement, using the Hero toolkit to build a game rather than to build a setting.  It is my belief that 6th edition Hero isn't so much a game as a box full of tools to make a game with, so that is what I intend to try to do.

[IndianaJoe3]

When you buy a Halo game and turn on your Xbox, do you what to see the game spool up or a wall of code and a note indicating that you have the capability to create a cool Halo game? 

 

Other games give you a GUI and maybe some apps. Hero gives you a command line and a compiler.

 

I have only one comment.

Yes.

 

Which you double-posted. 

[Scott Ruggels2]

okay that makes more sense. put all the system calls in the appendices, with calls to pages in the big rule book. I can see that, though , again as I said on another Fantasy Hero thread, you will have the build out EVERYTHING! It will take a fair amount of work, but it will look like a full game, but as it is, then the MHI approach is the way to go.  So, are there any licenses worth pursuing at this time?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Many, many licenses.  Look at all the fantasy series out there, look at the sci fi movies, look at all those young people's dystopian fiction stories.  Lots and lots to go after.  Almost none being taken advantage of.

[Spence]

Other games give you a GUI and maybe some apps. Hero gives you a command line and a compiler.

 

 

Which you double-posted. 

 

[Spence]

After some thought, and intro to Hero, regardless of genre, should be quickstarts like you see at FreeRPG day.  A brief short set of very basic rules of play, a short adventure, a bestiary/NPC gallery specifically for the adventure and some pre-gens tailored to the adventure. 

 

Here are the rules, here is a PC, PLAY!

[Christopher R Taylor]

One of Hero's strengths is how simple it is to play.  Allowing people to dive in right away and experience that with pregens makes things pretty easy and lets people experience the game.  Then they can learn how incredibly powerful the system is to build their characters with once they know how it works.

[Alcibiades]

Many, many licenses.  Look at all the fantasy series out there, look at the sci fi movies, look at all those young people's dystopian fiction stories.  Lots and lots to go after.  Almost none being taken advantage of.

 

Young People's Dystopian Fiction Hero.

 

Hey! FFG lost the 40K license.

[Scott Ruggels2]

I think the Fantasy Hero Primer project is a perfect intro to the system as a  game, 

[Tasha]

I don't fully understand what you mean here. Could you explain a little?

It making a game that doesn't have the power construction section at all. It has all of the Superskills, Spells, special abilities totally prebuilt. All Monsters, vehicles, equipment, etc prebuilt and ready to go. A game fully built and not requiring that the GM do anything more than Generate NPCs, Plotlines and encounters. It would include a fully fleshed out campaign. At least in the general sense of the word. You could still have future supplements that add stuff to the campaign and add detail to the world. The rules would only include those that are used for that game (ie FHC does this to some extent). A set of Pregenned Characters would also be nice.

 

A superhero setting would be difficult to built in this fashion, but pretty much any heroic game would be wonderful. This would eliminate most of the work required to run a Hero System game. It could also give Hero a potential revenue stream  It would be a different mindset. Going from being a Hero System Supplement, to Powered by The Hero System.

 

PS Yeah I know that I am replying to a year old post.