Is there no way to build an unbreakable Entangle?

[WistfulD]

Desolid, usable as attack, ranged, 0 end, uncontrolled

1D6 Entangle, affects desolid, takes no damage from attacks, linked

 

Unless they have an affects real world (+2) attack, they can't hit it.

So turn someone desolidified, then entangle them with an desoli-effecting entangle that only they can break out of with their strength, but because the entangle is solid (even though it can affect desolid), and they are not, they need ARW(+2) on their STR? Not bad rule-abuse-fu. Pretty much just highlights the validity of the "!" system, though.

[Mister E]

An Affects Desolid Entangle can hit Desolid characters & cannot be escaped w/ Desolid.

 

That is the benefit of an Affects Desolid Entangle.

 

There is no rule that Desolid characters lacking Affects Physical World STR are incapable of breaking free of Affects Desolid Entangles.

 

Entangles work on STR.

 

Affects Desolid Entangles are capable of working on the STR of Desolid characters.

 

"Ghost Trap": Entangle 1 BODY, Affects Desolid (all SFX; +1/2)(15 active pts); No Defense (Only BODY; -1 1/2), Entangle Has 1 BODY (-1/2), AVAD "All Or Nothing" NND ("defense" is Affects Physical World; -1/2). Total cost: 4 pts.

[Christopher]

If you had those kinds of points to throw around, maybe some would be invested in power defense.

If you had these kinds of points to throw around AND the enemy had it too, that would not be enough points for an unbrekable entangle. Transfrom or 300 AP Entangle.

Thanks for agreeing that the original idea was faulty.

 

Any power can be recreated by Transform. Killing Attack? Live Target to Dead Target. Blast? Target to KO'd Target. Flash? Target to Blind Target.

 

To me, the more specific mechanic should be the first choice, so if we can achieve the desired immobility effect with Entangle, let's take that route. Seems like that +1 1/4 effectively creates an "NND Entangle".

Except:

Transform can't kill you (explicitly) or knock you out (doable by other power) and Flash has a duration in target phases (if you transform that short - doable by other power).

 

An Affects Desolid Entangle can hit Desolid characters & cannot be escaped w/ Desolid.

 

That is the benefit of an Affects Desolid Entangle.

 

There is no rule that Desolid characters lacking Affects Physical World STR are incapable of breaking free of Affects Desolid Entangles.

 

Entangles work on STR.

Indeed. Another way to look at it: By affecting the character the entangle itself made itself attackable by the character.

 

Or could a desolid character not break out of a Grab done via "Affects Desolid" strenght? I think he can. And Entangle is really just a grab, self maintained.

[Hugh Neilson]

Except:

Transform can't kill you (explicitly) or knock you out (doable by other power) and Flash has a duration in target phases (if you transform that short - doable by other power).

So why are we asserting Transform can duplicate the effect of an Entangle, then? You can already hold a target still, denying it phases, using Entangle. A Change Environment that Stuns people (Advanced Players Guide] is another option that continuously denies its target their phases. I also like the EDM - usable as an attack - that moves the target forward in time with the SFX that he's removed from normal time and cannot move, affect or be affected by anything until he reaches his destination point.

 

With all those other powers to achieve the effect, clearly we can't use Transform, right?

[massey]

 

Indeed. Another way to look at it: By affecting the character the entangle itself made itself attackable by the character.

 

Or could a desolid character not break out of a Grab done via "Affects Desolid" strenght? I think he can. And Entangle is really just a grab, self maintained.

 

Well, normally a desolid character needs affects real world in order to affect anything.  If a desolid character gets hit with an entangle, normally they turn off their desolid to try and blast their way out.

[Mister E]

Entangled characters do not have to make Attack Rolls to hit or damage the Entangle restraining them.

 

Desolid characters w/ similar SFX can automatically affect each other normally.

[Ragitsu]

 

Ooh. I'll remember to be more thorough in describing the parameters of my inquiry next time*.

 

The Entangle in question is completely unbreakable and inescapable by normal physical means (no brute forcing your way out or sliding out with the most flexible of joints or lack of spine (yes, it will even restrain something akin to an octopus or snake in terms of physiology!).

 

However, it can be teleported or phased out of (with the proper form of Desolidification, natch). There will be some sort of linked Drain/Suppress Teleportation plus Desoldification, but those with the appropriate traits can still escape if they are powerful enough teleporters/phase shifters (by making an appropriate power Roll to push through).

 

---

 

*(Breakfast is on the house, by the way. Well...if you're into omelets, that is. There is no shortage of egg on my face.)

[Mister E]

WELL DUH! How did I miss this? Only noticed due to discussion on another thread, but what about "takes no damage from attacks".

 

At the +1 level, "takes no damage from attacks" means "an Entangle cannot be attacked, damaged, or affected by outside attackers at all — only the victim can break free, and he can only apply his STR (or EGO, for Mental Paralysis Entangles) to break out." A reasonably common and obvious means of removing the entangle is also required. Examples noted are antidotes to a paralytic poison, counterspells for a "hold person" type spell, etc. This is referred to as a "caution sign" power, in some cases even a "stop sign".

 

Now, slap on a +1/4 "takes no damage from attacks" and make it also immune to physical attacks (now STR doesn't cut it either).

 

Big Stop Sign, but we all knew that. Our Heros now need to find and apply the means by which the entangle can be removed.

This is basically the same advantage taken twice.

 

Both of those Advantages are for making Entangles transparent to damage so that the Entangled characters can be attacked w/o damaging the Entangles.

 

In both cases the Entangles can be specifically targeted at -3 OCV so that the damage affects the Entangles & the Entangled characters normally.

 

Neither actually stops or restricts the way Entangled characters break themselves free.

 

I'd be interested in whether this suits the OP's requirements, though. If we knew what he was looking for, it would be easier to assess how to find it.

Lo!

[Ndreare]

The most effective entangle I have had a character build was simply a Penitrating Speed Drain. It was so effective against any single foe that he would only feel threatened by multiple attackers. For 75 points he had 5d6 of "Tempral Deceleration ".

 

Once the group had a bad guy he could safely hold him for the authorities.

[Hugh Neilson]

This is basically the same advantage taken twice.

Yes, it is. Which is why it needs a big STOP SIGN

 

Both of those Advantages are for making Entangles transparent to damage so that the Entangled characters can be attacked w/o damaging the Entangles.

No, this is also a variant of the advantage that makes Mental Paralysis impossible to damage by physical and energy attacks. Not "need to be targeted" - impossible.

 

In both cases the Entangles can be specifically targeted at -3 OCV so that the damage affects the Entangles & the Entangled characters normally.

 

Neither actually stops or restricts the way Entangled characters break themselves free.

I can see this interpretation of the +1/4 to be "transparent to physical attacks", or +1/2 to be "transparent to all attacks. However,

 

And for a +1 Advantage, an Entangle cannot be attacked, damaged, or affected by outside attackers at all — only the victim can break free, and he can only apply his STR (or EGO, for Mental Paralysis Entangles) to break out. However, a character buying Takes No Damage at the +1 level must specify one reasonably common and obvious way to remove the entangle; this doesn’t qualify for any sort of Limitation (such as Susceptible).

That seems pretty clear you don't get to target the entangle specifically at OCV -3. The attack is not affected by outside attackers at all. It is not affected by the target, outside his own STR (not a Hand Attack, or an RKA - his STR - or EGO for mental paralysis, but that's not what the OP is looking for). So all we need do to make it entirely unbreakable is find a way that the target's STR also cannot be used. Or, I suppose, buy enough extra PD (noting that we can bump PD by 2 for every 5 points invested) that it is functionally unbreakable.

[Grailknight]

Pretty sure RAI on that is his own Power(s) not just STR or EGO.  We're not in Pathfinder Society.

[Mister E]

APGII 27 Entangles That Diminish STR:

 

Reduces STR (victims can only apply 75% [50%][25%] of their STR; +1/4 [+1/2][+1])

 

"This Advantage is most effective when applied to Entangle w/ the +1 form of Takes No Damage From Attacks, but can be bought for any Entangle. This is a "Caution Sign" ability."

 

House rule: Reduces STR (0% STR; +2).

[Hugh Neilson]

Pretty sure RAI on that is his own Power(s) not just STR or EGO.  We're not in Pathfinder Society.

The rule reads very clearly to me. Stopping after "only the victim can break free" would show your RAI. The rules go on to clearly state that he may use only his own STR, not anything else, against a non-Mental Paralysis entangle.

 

I could be a little more generous than Mister E and suggest that, for a +2 advantage, the victim cannot even apply his own STR (EGO) - only the "magic bullet" can break him out. EDIT FOR CLARITY: I am referring to making the +1 for "Takes no Damage from Attack" becoming +2 for "Not even from the victim's own STR or EGO", as opposed to adding on the APG option.

 

However, I think this would better be constructed with an absolute cost. Why would I not put that advantage (or the combination) on a 1d6 Entangle which is Limited to 1 BOD? With that in mind, it may lend itself better to a Change Environment adder.

 

I would also add that the construct should follow the rule that the PC's can build the same construct - if it's far too powerful for a PC at the same point cost, the NPC should not be able to build it either. I can always give the NPC a vast number of bonus points to have this build, but it should be clear that is what I have to do to create this effect.

[Mister E]

I could be a little more generous than Mister E and suggest that, for a +2 advantage, the victim cannot even apply his own STR (EGO) - only the "magic bullet" can break him out.

Actually that is exactly what I intended w/ the above Reduces STR (0% STR; +2) house rule.

 

Why would I not put that advantage (or the combination) on a 1d6 Entangle which is Limited to 1 BOD?

"Break-Time": Entangle 1 BODY, Affects Desolid (all SFX [except Inherent]; +1/2), Cannot Be Escaped W/ Teleport (taken twice to counter AP Teleport; +1/2), Takes No Damage From Attacks (spend 1 Full Phase to remove Entangle entirely by taking a Recovery*; +1), Reduces STR (0% STR; +2)(50 active pts); Entangle Has 1 Body (-1/2), No Defense (-1 1/2). Total cost: 17 pts.

 

*Anyone can spend a Full Phase (not just the victim) taking a Recovery to remove "Break-Time" but they must remain next to the victim for the Full Phase.

 

Does not work on forms of Desolid that are Inherent.

 

Double AP Teleport required to escape.

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually that is exactly what I intended w/ the above Reduces STR (0% STR; +2) house rule.

Clarified above - my approach would not make it a lot more expensive, though. Total of +2 rather than +3 to remove all standard escape mechanics.

 

 

Your example power makes my point exactly - 60 points for a 6d6, 6 DEF standard Entangle seems a waste if I can buy this (with, perhaps, a different escape clause) instead for only 17 points.

[Tech]

Tranform to Stone Statue. There, entangle you can't break out of. Seriously, what's the point of an unbreakable Entangle? I hope he knows what the player's reactions will be. Throw enough points into any power and voila, you can do anything.

[Ragitsu]

"No man, no beast, no bond can hold me!"
"Actually, yes. Yes it can."

[Greywind]

They only way to build an unbreakable requires intimate knowledge of the campaign's limits and then building the entangle exceeding those limits.

[Mister E]

Clarified above - my approach would not make it a lot more expensive, though. Total of +2 rather than +3 to remove all standard escape mechanics.

Ah so!

 

Takes No Damage From Attacks (covers the kitchen sink & all agruments; +2)

 

Your example power makes my point exactly - 60 points for a 6d6, 6 DEF standard Entangle seems a waste if I can buy this (with, perhaps, a different escape clause) instead for only 17 points.

I might make adding Can Be Dispelled mandotory to the "unbreakable" Entangle to make the low active pt builds less attractive.

 

What are some other good escape clauses?

[Hugh Neilson]

Takes No Damage From Attacks (covers the kitchen sink & all agruments; +2)

In the interest of realism, I allow "covers all arguments" only with a substantial Extra Time limitation - harsh and bitter experience

 

I might make adding Can Be Dispelled mandotory to the "unbreakable" Entangle to make the low active pt builds less attractive.

 

What are some other good escape clauses?

Less facetiously, I think the ability to get this at a very low cost suggests it not be allowed in this manner. I come back to a fixed cost Change Environment for "Target cannot move until escape clause happens"

 

I think the escape clause has to come from the concept of the power. It could be a key (magical or mundane) which has to be obtained and used to unlock the chains (possibly making it an adventure unto itself). It might be a counterspell (D&D's Knock, for example). Or it could be something as easy as taking that recovery. "Only once you accept your confinement can you be free"

[Asperion]

APGII 27 Entangles That Diminish STR:Reduces STR (victims can only apply 75% [50%][25%] of their STR; +1/4 [+1/2][+1])

"This Advantage is most effective when applied to Entangle w/ the +1 form of Takes No Damage From Attacks, but can be bought for any Entangle. This is a "Caution Sign" ability."

House rule: Reduces STR (0% STR; +2).

Here is an idea that I have not seen:

 

Entangle+Linked STR Dispel (or Drain)

 

The concept is that while entangled, the char is without his STR but if he can manage to escape then the lost STR is returned.

[BhelliomRahl]

Ragitsu you have explained the power but what context will it be used in.  If this is a plot device and will be used by an NPC don't bother to build it.  Just note down what its effect is and what methods are available for escaping it.  

 

If its a PC power I would treat it one of two ways:

1) If you want an absolute effect build the power to the level at which 99% of beings could not escape and House Rule it as Absolute.  This was the suggested method in the Hero System if you wanted to have a absolute.

2) Tell the PC there are no Absolutes, you could build the power to the point that no one could escape but there is always an exception.  The PC might never encounter that person or he could be the PC's Nemesis that is up to the GM.

 

From personal experience trying to build an absolute effect is time consuming and exhausting and I generally have stopped doing it mechanically and just use absolutes if necessary as Plot Devices.

[Thia Halmades]

Two things. New Poster asked the question no one else did: Why? Or said with appropriate accent: 'Whai?'

 

Hugh is correct.

 

That is all. As you were. No smiting here.

[WistfulD]

The Entangle in question is completely unbreakable and inescapable by normal physical means (no brute forcing your way out or sliding out with the most flexible of joints or lack of spine (yes, it will even restrain something akin to an octopus or snake in terms of physiology!).

 

However, it can be teleported or phased out of (with the proper form of Desolidification, natch). There will be some sort of linked Drain/Suppress Teleportation plus Desoldification, but those with the appropriate traits can still escape if they are powerful enough teleporters/phase shifters (by making an appropriate power Roll to push through).

 

Okay, well, you know your campaign, so I assume you will have some characters powerful enough to endure the suppress and get out. Be real careful with "the only way to get out of this is ____." powers, as they often just become X points that each player now has to spend during character creation to have a defense against (with a suppression resistant teleport, in this instance).

[Ragitsu]

Okay, well, you know your campaign, so I assume you will have some characters powerful enough to endure the suppress and get out. Be real careful with "the only way to get out of this is ____." powers, as they often just become X points that each player now has to spend during character creation to have a defense against (with a suppression resistant teleport, in this instance).

 

You're talking to a guy that had a PC playing a Megascale teleporter that would bip and bop out of combat to take villains halfway across the galaxy. I've gotten a better hold on balancing supremely powerful abilities since then.