Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Lord Liaden]

As with so much among the American extreme Right today, cruelty is actually the point.

[unclevlad]

52 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

As with so much among the American extreme Right today, cruelty is actually the point.

 

Possible, but not my take.  It's not cruelty to them per se...it's that they don't give a *darn* about the indirect aspects.  That baby was alive at the moment of conception, is their take.  God entered in, and thus NOTHING man can do, can be allowed to change that.

 

I'm not saying this is a good argument, on multiple levels.  I'm just saying "cruel" is the wrong word.  Callous is closer.  Ruthless, too, in the way that any single-minded philosophy is.  It's not cruel, it's necessary.  That's their take.

[Lord Liaden]

Your take is very reasonable. But I notice a distinct relish, almost glee, expressed among Republican supporters, when one of "those others" suffers. This movement seems to appeal to the vindictive streak in humanity, as a way to both distract and motivate them.

 

So, while I don't deny any of your attributions to their motives, I maintain that cruelty is in there too.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Lord Liaden]

Conservatives Turn on Mike Johnson Over Jan. 6 Tapes

 

Reacting to the conference, conservatives suggested Johnson was trying to blur out the faces of federal agents involved in the riot. While a conspiracy theory since the events has circulated speculating that FBI agents were involved in the riots, there is no evidence to support such a claim.

 

One person posted on X, formerly Twitter: "This is 100% to blur out all the feds. Like the FBI doesn't have copies of these. What a ridiculous lie."

 

"We already know what is going on here," opined another. "Protecting the feds."

 

"It's because they are feds," said a third.

 

The GOP and their allies have pushed that lie so long and hard, their base won't see the situation any other way, and any authority figure saying differently will be accused of collaborating in the conspiracy. Their "tangled web" is going to strangle them.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

Your take is very reasonable. But I notice a distinct relish, almost glee, expressed among Republican supporters, when one of "those others" suffers. This movement seems to appeal to the vindictive streak in humanity, as a way to both distract and motivate them.

 

So, while I don't deny any of your attributions to their motives, I maintain that cruelty is in there too.

 

The vindictive streak, sure, but...why should they care about "those others?"  "Those others" have already been tagged, generally, as sinners anyway, so it's doing God's Work to punish them.  

 

I'll strongly argue against "distract"...in fact, to me, it's the polar opposite.  FOCUS.  And Unite.  

 

Note that there are plenty of measures swirling around that go much further than making abortion illegal, like trying to restrict travel, or giving assistance to travel, for the purpose of getting an abortion.  This, to me, shows the motive is ideological purity, and asserting their morality is the only acceptable one.  

[Lord Liaden]

Yes, it's doing God's work to punish them, and that makes them righteous, which inflates their ego, and it's causing "just" suffering, which allows them to justify the pleasure they derive from it. Being united with others in hatred of someone makes them feel powerful and special, an addictive feeling. Perhaps you may not have seen diverse enough sources discussing this phenomenon to appreciate how twisted this kind of thinking gets.

 

The distraction lies in giving the people someone to blame, to look down on, to kick down at, so they won't notice how their "betters" above them are exploiting them to their own benefit. "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- Lyndon Johnson

Edited December 8, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Old Man]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

The GOP and their allies have pushed that lie so long and hard, their base won't see the situation any other way, and any authority figure saying differently will be accused of collaborating in the conspiracy. Their "tangled web" is going to strangle them.

 

Gosh.  Wouldn't that be awful.

[Lord Liaden]

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Note that there are plenty of measures swirling around that go much further than making abortion illegal, like trying to restrict travel, or giving assistance to travel, for the purpose of getting an abortion.  This, to me, shows the motive is ideological purity, and asserting their morality is the only acceptable one.  

 

Again, I won't deny that a notion of ideological purity is a factor. I used to think that this tactic was a deliberate ploy to appeal to a certain portion of the voting population, but some of these politicians have been doubling down so hard on it, when the majority of Americans are against it, that I can only conclude it's what they really want.

 

But IMO another major component of their motivation is control. The sense of power that comes from taking control of people's lives away from them, making them do what you tell them. We've seen that manifested in how the Right has been so aggressive to enforce coercive measures on immigration, education, employment, gender roles, even dress codes. The travel restrictions and prosecutions you mention are another manifestation of that. (How DARE these women try to escape our laws?!) On the abortion issue I believe there's considerable misogyny as well. While women are part of the anti-abortion movement, the legislative measures have been spearheaded by men.

 

I think it's a variation on the sense of power a rapist feels, taking control of a woman's body. God knows men have found numerous ways to do that throughout history. And religion is perhaps the most frequent rationalization for it.

[csyphrett]

I don't know if this is reaching other outlets yet, but Farron Cousins is reporting that the founder of Moms for Liberty, the book banning for kids to protect them from smut and the LGBT organization, and her husband were engaged with another woman for years but recently the husband attacked this other woman. At least one of the national chapters has stated that this doesn't match their values

CES

[Cancer]

I have said before somewhere on these boards: If you find yourself accused of bizarre and heinous things that would never occur to you, all too often those things are what the accuser would do if they were in your position.

[unclevlad]

In a disappointing move, the Texas Supreme Court has temporarily halted the order allowing the abortion where the fetus has a *severe* birth defect, and where the pregnancy itself is causing serious health problems for the mother.  It is temporary, until they can make a final ruling.  One can only hope that's SOON.  Like...midweek at the latest.

[Armitage]

20 hours ago, Cancer said:

I have said before somewhere on these boards: If you find yourself accused of bizarre and heinous things that would never occur to you, all too often those things are what the accuser would do if they were in your position.

 

Back when major news sites still had comment sections, any article about atheism almost always had at least one person asking "If you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from robbing, raping, and killing all the time?"

Just because you're apparently a potential serial killer only kept in check by your fear of divine punishment, that doesn't mean everyone else also lacks the ability to form an internal moral code, even though believing that might make you feel better about yourself.

[DShomshak]

https://www.npr.org/programs/all-things-considered/

 

Analysis rather than news, but I had not heard before that Trump's legal team wants his D. C. trial televised. As observed, Trump is a creature of Reality TV and no doubt expects this would be a great way to play to his base; the legal outcome would be irrelevant.

 

But oops, Federal codes prohibit televising Federal trials. That isn't stopping major media outlets from pleading to televise the trial. It's so important! To, um, the voters, yeah, the voters need to see this. Perhaps I am cynical for thinking their real interest is more interest in viewership and ad revenues than civic service.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Cygnia]

 

[unclevlad]

Jack Smith is trying to get the Supreme Court to immediately take up the question of Trump's immunity, rather than wait for the Court of Appeals to rule.  Basically, shortening the timeline, as we know that Trump's team is trying to stretch this out as much as possible.  

[Cygnia]

Well, time to see if it's official that SCOTUS is all in on corruption or not...

[unclevlad]

The woman at the center of the Texas abortion firestorm has left the state to have the procedure performed elsewhere.  The only downside is, this may render any further legal action with regard to the questions about the Texas law, moot.  That said, she and her doctors may well feel that waiting *at all* is just too risky/painful.  

 

EDIT:  the Texas Supreme Court ruled against her this evening anyway.  

 

Now I'm worried that the woman and her family are going to face significant persecution/shaming, and maybe lawsuits based on the stupid Texas laws?  Not sure about that.  But I'm concerned she's going to be forced to relocate to another state.

 

 

[unclevlad]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/opinion/texas-abortion-ban.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Fk0.eUTo.SsvblYcxDvwD&smid=url-share

[Lord Liaden]

I think we might have missed this example of the Texas government yelling out of the other side of their mouths: Texas questions rights of fetus in prison guard lawsuit despite arguing opposite on abortion.

 

"Officials argue ‘unborn child’ may not have rights under US constitution in lawsuit defense over prison guard stillbirth."

[Lectryk]

 

 

[Cygnia]

 

[Cygnia]

https://inthesetimes.com/article/former-left-right-fascism-capitalism-horseshoe-theory

 

Quote

n the wake of Bernie Sanders’ loss in the 2020 presidential election, a small collection of leftists reconstituted themselves as “post-left,” still opposed to capitalism but scornful of “identitarian politics” and so disgusted with the liberal-left — from Democrats to the Democratic Socialists of America — that they saw little issue allying with the Right.

UnHerd, a U.K.-based “heterodox” opinion website founded by a Brexit supporter, covered the movement in a piece titled “Twilight of the American Left.” To the post-left, explained contributor Park MacDougald, the real U.S. ruling class is a Democratic oligarchy that uses the threat of creeping fascism and white nationalism to consolidate power, and deploys “‘identity politics,’ ‘antiracism,’ ‘intersectionality’ and other pillars of the progressive culture war” as “mystifications whose function is to demoralize and divide the proletariat.” Leftists, in this view, merely serve as that regime’s “unwitting dupes.”

But distinct from other “class-first” leftists, the post-left didn’t believe a real Left remained at all. Hence the double-edged title of the now defunct podcast What’s Left?, cohosted by Australian social media personality Aimee Terese, a former Sanders supporter who sought to “[heighten] the contradictions between left-liberal-identitarians and materialists” and who spent much of 2020 attacking progressive movements. After the primaries, the podcast gave voice to disillusioned Sanders supporters who railed against Sanders and other leftists for “sheep-dogging” people into the Democratic Party. Terese’s posts were shared by the likes of Mike Pompeo and Donald Trump Jr. The podcast began interviewing a range of right-wing leaders: “postliberal” scholars such as Harvard’s Adrian Vermeule, right-populists like hillbilly elegist J.D. Vance and former Mitt Romney campaign staffer Oren Cass, who recast himself as a champion of, as his book puts it, The Once and Future Worker.

 

[Lord Liaden]

I thought of putting this in the Random Videos thread, but I'm concerned it will provoke the kind of commentary that belongs here.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

The US House of Representatives has voted to impeach President Biden. The vote was 221-212, straight down party lines, with no dissenting Republicans.

 

I was listening to Mark Elias commenting on this on MSNBC, and I thought he underlined a really salient point that every American voter has to consider: "There are no moderate Republicans in the House of Representatives. There are proud MAGA, and there are scared MAGA."

[Simon]

Might want to correct that - they voted to authorize an impeachment inquiry.