Champions Campaign Book

[Spence]

If I were writing it, and assuming it was set the Champions Universe, the situation would be that the Champions (and the MC8, and any other heroes the GM feels the need to eliminate) have gone missing, presumed dead. The GM's section would emphasise that they aren't actually dead unless the GM wants them to be, and can be brought back whenever it is convenient. The point is that they are missing.

 

The PCs would be the heroes (and, optionally, reformed villains) pressganged into being their replacements.

 

Then there would be a loose story line - a plot point campaign style thing, if I understand the concept correctly - where the PCs get to grow into the shoes of their predecessors, find out what happened to them, defeat the Big Bad that was capable of defeating the Champions, the MC8 and other heroes combined, and probably have a showdown with "their predecessors returned from the dead".

 

 

You see that illustrates what I call the show stopper.  In the Champions Universe the Champions are the big sticks.  In D&D we do not see PC's beginning at 20th level and taking on the gods right out of the gate. 

 

A beginning Champions Character built by players whose only experience will be reading Champions Complete will not be playing well rounded and well designed characters.  They will most likely be playing poorly thought out PC's with glaring design errors.  To match them up against a threat designed for the Champions and you have disastrous defeat followed by "this sucks, let's play X".  

 

If I was making an official module I'd use something like Grab.  They are not really a top power tier villain team and a beginning Hero team can screw up verses thieves without dying or permanent damage.   Plus while I can write the adventure to take place in Millennium City or Hudson City and simply change the name and go.  Since they, GRAB, are not big hitters the plot can be a series of thefts blending investigative scenarios with smaller (for supers) battles and not derail a campaign. 

 

Now the brand new players and GM's can practice and tinker without catastrophic session one TPK's.     And if I want to use it elsewhere I can just change the city name and bamf I can use it.  Thieves can be tracked and captured or escape and then be conveniently forgotten if the GM doesn't want to pursue it. 

 

But if the adventure is centered at big stick core personalities of the campaign world, it is harder to drop the intro scenario. 

 

For me, an introduction Champions Module should not only not be about the Champions, but I wouldn't even mention them.  In D&D terms, we need 1st level intro adventures and all we see are 10th level and above specific quests.

 

Most of the Hero Supers adventures put out in the last 5 years are well written but have depth and detail to be beyond a simple intro adventure.  I am saving them for when I have a group of Supers that have been playing for 6 months to a year.

[Christopher R Taylor]

A campaign book, as I see it, would take elements of these, and put them together into a coherent campaign. It wouldn't be a toolkit, except within narrow bounds, and would focus on being immediately playable.

 

It would contain scenarios, useful maps, required NPCs, and a framework to hook the scenarios together.

 

That's how I see it too.  I like your idea of the PCs being the team that is trying to replace the Champions and if I understand what you are saying you don't mean what Spence is concerned about -- that they step right into the team's shoes -- but that they are trying to fill the gap as a starting team and build up to that point.

 

A simple starter adventure, a set of short descriptions of adventures along the path to the main goal, lots of short blurb type ideas for other adventures, especially for various PC types and character stories (hunteds DNPCs, magic stories, tech stories, alien stories, love stories, tragedies resolved, etc) and a bunch of useful maps and we're good to go.  Box it up with some Hero Dice and Champions Complete and you have a nice product.

[massey]

You see that illustrates what I call the show stopper.  In the Champions Universe the Champions are the big sticks.  In D&D we do not see PC's beginning at 20th level and taking on the gods right out of the gate. 

 

A beginning Champions Character built by players whose only experience will be reading Champions Complete will not be playing well rounded and well designed characters.  They will most likely be playing poorly thought out PC's with glaring design errors.  To match them up against a threat designed for the Champions and you have disastrous defeat followed by "this sucks, let's play X".  

 

If I was making an official module I'd use something like Grab.  They are not really a top power tier villain team and a beginning Hero team can screw up verses thieves without dying or permanent damage.   Plus while I can write the adventure to take place in Millennium City or Hudson City and simply change the name and go.  Since they, GRAB, are not big hitters the plot can be a series of thefts blending investigative scenarios with smaller (for supers) battles and not derail a campaign. 

 

Now the brand new players and GM's can practice and tinker without catastrophic session one TPK's.     And if I want to use it elsewhere I can just change the city name and bamf I can use it.  Thieves can be tracked and captured or escape and then be conveniently forgotten if the GM doesn't want to pursue it. 

 

But if the adventure is centered at big stick core personalities of the campaign world, it is harder to drop the intro scenario. 

 

For me, an introduction Champions Module should not only not be about the Champions, but I wouldn't even mention them.  In D&D terms, we need 1st level intro adventures and all we see are 10th level and above specific quests.

 

Most of the Hero Supers adventures put out in the last 5 years are well written but have depth and detail to be beyond a simple intro adventure.  I am saving them for when I have a group of Supers that have been playing for 6 months to a year.

 

Basically you want Keep on the Borderlands for Champions.

 

Can't say I blame you, that would be pretty useful.

[Spence]

Basically you want Keep on the Borderlands for Champions.

 

Can't say I blame you, that would be pretty useful.

 

It isn't exactly what I thought I had said, but after a bit of thought.  Yes. Exactly. 

 

Add in a simple bland set of pre-gens and you have something beginners can play immediately.  Before they even read the character creation rules.

 

With a bit of in play experience under their belt and the build rules are suddenly easy.  I still remember the rules not making any sense until a friend let me play one of his characters for a session.  With that frame of reference everything became clear.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Spence

[assault]

Actually, I was thinking about Keep on the Borderlands too.

 

That's basically what we want, although I was going for a whole series of modules in a single book.

 

This is probably going to multiple post.

[doccowie]

Unfortunately, our brave heroes are up against The Evil Economist.

 

This would be an amazing resource, probably for years, but I don't see it selling in huge numbers.

Your target audience is beginning GMs for Hero (plus all of us completists). So, even if there are ?500 people wanting to use it every year- if that is 100 groups it's only a hundred copies.

And out of those some would want Golden Age, some want Dark Champions, some want Wolverine, some want Iron Man, which splits your audience.

 

So, it's an awesome idea. Stick it on Kickstarter and you've got $100 from me (for a fancy printed book plus something else to make me feel I'm getting my money's worth). Are there enough others to make it worth somebody's time?

 

Edit - have just seen the thread where people are actually making this happen. Am now mildly embarrassed, but will leave this here in case anyone else is reading threads in the wrong order :- )

[assault]

Unfortunately, our brave heroes are up against The Evil Economist.

 

This would be an amazing resource, probably for years, but I don't see it selling in huge numbers.

Your target audience is beginning GMs for Hero (plus all of us completists). So, even if there are ?500 people wanting to use it every year- if that is 100 groups it's only a hundred copies.

And out of those some would want Golden Age, some want Dark Champions, some want Wolverine, some want Iron Man, which splits your audience.

 

So, it's an awesome idea. Stick it on Kickstarter and you've got $100 from me (for a fancy printed book plus something else to make me feel I'm getting my money's worth). Are there enough others to make it worth somebody's time?

 

Edit - have just seen the thread where people are actually making this happen. Am now mildly embarrassed, but will leave this here in case anyone else is reading threads in the wrong order :- )

 

The theory is that Hero, as it currently exists, isn't friendly enough for starting players and thus reduces the player base below what it could be.

 

As such, a product of this kind would technically be a loss leader, hopefully increasing sales for products down the track.

 

Of course, given that most Hero System products at the moment are put out by licensees, and the sales overall are (I gather) iffy, this is problematic.

 

Still, it's interesting that the main resistance to the idea isn't economic, but comes from grognards.

[doccowie]

Huh, loss leader, eh? Do we have a clear idea about who is keen to take the loss :-) ?

 

Again, I agree it's a great concept, but I think to have its desired effect, it needs money for decent art, cool maps, and also for the boring stuff like editing.

The alternate thread is interesting - we're all keen to make characters, but there is a lot of scut work involved, which either takes a small group led by someone who knows what he is doing a decent amount of time, or an uncoordinated group an infinite amount of time. The second one is cheaper, but also takes longer :- )

I'm not slagging off enthusiastic amateurs, all competent professionals started off that way. It's just that working out a way that this could be done by competent professionals - perhaps with some support from enthusiastic and reliable amateurs - may make it more likely that something this awesome actually ends up in my hands?

 

I suspect many of us are competent professionals in other fields. Maybe the best thing to do is to spend a few extra hours doing overtime and give the money to someone who specializes in this kind of stuff...

[Spence]

Or

 

Acknowledge that Hero needs a bootstrap while it is still known and produce a PDF linked adventure series.

 

Start with Part 0 that consists of about 6 pre-generated player characters.

 

Instead of driving people off by trying to be everything for everybody and winding up just being avoided.  Stop trying to be artificially diverse and making a slice of pre-gens that effectively channel the players to a handful of ethnic/gender types that are somehow cool today.  Try to actually be diverse by making the pregens neutral and allowing the players to actually decide.  We have all seen other system player guides that show empty armor, the armor is drawn as if it is hanging on an invisible manikin.  Do the same for the costumes.  Regardless of what a person identifies as, in spandex or tight bodysuits, athletically fit people have two basic physical shapes.  Alex Morgan and Jordan Morris are good examples of athletically fit without going overboard or exaggerating body parts.  Write up the description in a manner that neither mentions or implies race or sex.   That way anyone that flips through the offered pregens will see what they want to, not what the authors want them to.

 

Add some advice content aimed at playing the game and make it free on the Hero site and RPGnow.

 

Part 1 would be a small simple and free intro arc.  2 to 3 scenarios that can be played linked or separate, built around a known villain group.   My go to teaching villain group is Grab, pretty tough for new players but not designed to be lethal.   An adventure based around a series of burglaries is much easier to insert into a campaign or simply forget/ignore later on.  Especially if they are not tied to the overall world.

 

assaults idea of a post Champions world is cool, and I have earmarked it for future use.  But for a basic intro it is not necessary and actually detrimental.  As people have said over and over and over again and again.  Most like to believe they are being original.  Just saying that the adventure takes place after the Champions disappear is enough for many people to pass.   Where does Part 1 take place? Millennium City, Hudson City, Los Angeles, Seattle, Metropolis, New York?  All would work equally so let the GM decide but do not mention the location in the scenario. Just call it "The City".

 

I think this illustrates one of Hero's biggest problems.  The overwhelming need to add that last bit of detail that is unnecessary and turns away the finicky gamer.   I have made several scenarios using the Hudson City map for street names and layout and then simply said it was in New York.  My players have never been there and honestly could care less as long as the game setting details are consistent.  Oak Street is Oak Street. 

 

So Part 0 is a basic pre-generated player package.  PC's with attached simplified how to play the character write ups.  How do I calculate END when I am blasting at half power?  Etc. 

 

Part 1 is a small series of linked scenarios using a small Champions villain group (included).  

 

Part 2 will follow on with another self-contained arc.

 

Each designed to be a drop in/throw away for any campaign world. Under the radar.  At worse, you stop at Part 2 and leave them as a free PDF resource. 

 

At best you add a few more parts and publish via Kickstarter as a physical product. 

 

But the current path of nothing is a downward spiral. 

 

And I know it is pretty hypocritical for me to even be saying that since I have not presented the community with a real, in hand solution.  My presence here is very spotty and I just don't have time. 

 

But I am not a professional soccer player and I can tell when a team is playing badly.  In this case my favorite game is sliding and appears to be bunkering in.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing is, past the expenses involved in producing a product?  Its really cheap to release them these days.  Print on demand, e-books, and social media advertising make it cheaper and easier today to publish than ever before.  The ideas and models of the 20th century costs and publishing do not apply any longer.

[massey]

Ultimately the biggest problem is artwork.

 

Look, I'm a decent writer and I could throw together a beginning level adventure arc in a couple of days.  Give me a month and I can write a 50 page module that will be pretty good.  Writing, layout, editing, it's not that hard.  The problem is that I can't draw anything worthwhile unless I'm basically tracing.  I suppose I could go through some old comics, trace Batman kicking some goon in the face, and just leave out the bat symbol and the pointy ears.  Heck, Rob Liefeld kind of made a career of copying other people's stuff.  But in the end we really just need somebody who can do comic book quality art.

 

The old DC Heroes game had some pretty good modules, and they had decent quality art throughout the books.  They were just grayscale images lifted from their comics, but stuff like this wouldn't be that hard to do.

 

 

Ultimately you just need somebody who can do it.  You need a picture for each character.  One for the PCs and one for each villain.  You need at least one picture for each full page spread, even if it's just a pic of the city you're in, or a taxi going down the street.  And you need at least two or three good action pictures showing people fighting.  And then you need a good cover, in color.  So for a 50 page adventure, you probably need at least 35 pieces of art.  You could do it with less, but it won't look as good and you won't get as positive a response.

 

The art is the holdup.  It has to be comic book quality to be worth it.  No offense to some of the people who provided pictures for some of the 5th edition stuff, but a lot of it was really not good.  We don't need that.

[doccowie]

Chris, you aren't being hypocritical, you're being realistic about your capacity to do what needs done. 

I agree about your comments on producing physical product, and even how much easier it is to produce professional looking pdfs.

 

But when you look at what publishers produce for newbies, a lot of it is about the gloss and the pizazz - you gotta suck 'em in.

I love HERO, you love HERO, but we would both agree that some people find it intimidating. Lovely art and nice maps together with well designed (both from a graphic design and HERO point of view) character sheets could make a big difference.

 

Now, there is a chance I'm letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, and the sections you describe sound really sensible. It's just that even there we're left with "Who's going to do it?". Not you, not me. And I wouldn't buy more pdfs, I like physical product. I'm prepared to throw cash at the problem.

Can we bribe someone else to do it with, you know, money?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right, the artwork is the biggest hurdle; its not impossible to overcome, but it would take a bit of cash up front.  Not a huge amount; there are thousands of would-be comic artists who'd leap at the chance to do art for such a product and they work cheap.  A few hundred bucks from Kickstarter is enough to pay for unknowns wanting a break to do artwork for the interior.  I can write, so can a lot of people here.  It just takes someone with energy, time, and drive to get this kind of thing going.

 

And the reason I bring up these topics and want the discussion is to try to inspire someone to do it. I don't have a lot of energy these days, especially if I'm going to get any of my own Fantasy Hero products put out.  And it takes energy and focus to get a successful kickstarter to work.  You do not absolutely need a video but its a very good idea, because these days some (perhaps many) people don't want to read much text and a video doesn't require much thought or effort on their part to learn about the project.

 

What I'm trying to do is get people to move past "Hero is dying" and "bummer, but its not my problem" to "wow we can do something about this hobby we love."

 

It isn't a huge expenditure of time and energy, but it is some.  Its not even that vastly expensive, but it does have some cost.  I am not up to either one, or I'd just be doing it instead of talking about it.  I'm hoping someone else out there is.

[massey]

I just bought a house, so money isn't something I'm really willing to part with.  I don't have tons of free time either, and am not willing to part with it unless I've got a reasonable assurance that the artwork problem is solved.

 

These are the same problems we ran into in the Champions Begins thread.

[steriaca]

Art is the sticker. We all could probably write a decent 4-color comic book series if given a chance and time, but none of us can draw the damm thing to save our lives. (Keep that hush hush. If Black Haliquin found out...)

[steriaca]

Art is the sticker. We all could probably write a decent 4-color comic book series if given a chance and time, but none of us can draw the damm thing to save our lives. (Keep that hush hush. If Black Haliquin found out...)

[bubba smith]

this project is better in theory than in practice

[dmjalund]

Isn't this a viable reason to use Kickstarter?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, kickstarter could, if run by someone with drive and skill, easily pay for art (including cover) and other incidental minor costs.  It also would provide some publicity.

[Christopher R Taylor]

To resurrect this thread: this gives us a followup to the Champions Begins project, something to hand people once they are through the tutorial and say "and you can jump right into a Champions campaign in the Champions universe with this!"  But where Champions Begins would be free and done for introducing people, the Champions Campaign would have to be a selling product.  A kickstarter would have to be done to get the funding for cover art, interior art, and publicity, perhaps a little to pay the author(s) because they would deserve some kind of compensation for their time.

 

I could see this as two possible products: the basic campaign book, and a box set that comes with Champions begins, some Hero Dice, and a few maps, maybe a CD with Hero Designer on it.

[wcw43921]

Yet that is true of every campaign ever played in every game system ever printed.  Somehow, they manage to print campaign settings anyway.  For example: this AD&D group has no cleric or healer class.  That Star Wars campaign has no jedi.  This Wild West game has no gunslinger.  

 

This Ghostbusters game has no dick.

 

(Sorry--couldn't resist. )

[Lord Liaden]

You know, Digital Hero published fourteen short adventures for Champions, most of them non-world-specific and designed for beginning-level heroes. They include artwork and maps; some of them even include NPC heroes. As I recall from the terms of my own article for DH, Hero Games owns the rights to these adventures.

 

If one had the original files for them, I doubt it would be difficult to update their game stats to 6E and package them as a single product. Hero Games might even let a fan do it, if he/she had credibility and approached them with a coherent plan.

[TheQuestionMan]

Update and format collected Digital Hero Adventures.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That would be a great, easy way to collect adventures for the book.  That and ones from Adventurer's Club provide a pretty good body of premade stuff that just needs updating.

[Amorkca]

I ran my group of scientists through the Cassandra Matrix in recent months, converted some of those characters to 6th Edition too.  I could post them here.