Thor: Ragnarok spoiler thread

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its just magic that detects worthiness based on Odin's criteria, whatever he chose at the time.  If you aren't worthy, you can't lift it.  Doesn't matter how strong you are or what you use, the magic won't let you pick it up.  Needing to define it in some scientific manner misses the whole point.

[Bazza]

We have a criteria for worthiness to lift Mjolnir or am I the only one who remembers the end of the first Thor film? 

 

(  ) 

[zslane]

What criteria is that? The oath of Asgardian Kingship is not an oath for the hammer.

 

Oh, and technically, Midgard, Earth, and Middle-Earth are all the same place (at least insofar as we equate Midgard with our Earth, which Thor clearly does).

[Lord Liaden]

I think Bazza was referring to Thor's demonstration of willingness to sacrifice himself to protect others, which regained him the hammer and his godhood.

[Doc Shadow]

By that criteria, Hela should not have been able to catch it as Odin no longer regards her as worthy.

 

Unless the enchantment expired when he did. Then again he was talking to Thor later in the movie. So his body may have been gone but his spirit wasn't. As such his enchantment should still have been active. Except that it wasn't.  It's all quite confusing.

 

This is what happens when you ad-lib too much. If you actually think about it, things start to fall apart.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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By that criteria, Hela should not have been able to catch it as Odin no longer regards her as worthy.

 

Yeah there was a lot of problems with that whole sequence, but the writers had two goals in mind here that had nothing to do with logic, continuity, history, or established concepts:

1. Destroy Thor's most powerful weapon so he has to battle back from weakness and not be able to casually escape gladiator trash planet
2. Show how badass Hela is

[Lord Liaden]

16 hours ago, Matt the Bruins said:

Certainly an impressive feat, and one that should have given the rest of the Avengers and anyone else witnessing it chills. But I think lifting that volume of solid rock to orbit while simultaneously keeping the air in with a force field dwarfs it in terms of the energy required. Also note that Thor said he was tiring out from the effort, whereas Terrax didn't seem to be.

 

Well, once Manhattan was in orbit, Terrax didn't really need to exert himself to keep it there. Besides, moving earth and stone is Terrax's specialty -- Thor's is not moving water. Also, it looked like the force-field holding Manhattan was being generated by Terrax's axe, not Terrax himself. There are enough examples to suggest the axe supplemented Terrax's innate abilities.

 

But geek debates aside , writer John Byrne almost certainly had Thor say he was tiring to add some dramatic urgency to the scene. Either feat is high on the scale of what comic-book supers are shown to be capable of.

[zslane]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I think Bazza was referring to Thor's demonstration of willingness to sacrifice himself to protect others, which regained him the hammer and his godhood.

 

Ah, gotcha. Right.

 

Odin is clearly reprogramming Mjolnir on the fly, resetting its parameters for who is and who is not "worthy" at any given time. And he can even make such changes to Mjolnir remotely, and while in his Odinsleep. As the All-Seeing Father, he no doubt saw Vision grab Mjolnir and added Vision to its database of worthy individuals, at least for that one dramatic moment.

 

Marvel is neatly tying that loose end up by destroying Mjolnir in the same movie that they killed off Odin. Without Odin around to reprogram Mjolnir as circumstances warranted, Thor would forever remain its (sole?) wielder, and thus remove any future drama over who gets to use it at any given time.

[Starlord]

2 hours ago, Doc Shadow said:

By that criteria, Hela should not have been able to catch it as Odin no longer regards her as worthy.

 

 

It is not too much of a stretch to imagine any sufficiently powerful being could catch the hammer.  The enchantments on the hammer are only as powerful as Odin can make them and Hela seemed at least as powerful as her father.  Also, she was confirmed as a previous owner of the hammer.

[zslane]

The MCU Odin appears considerably de-powered compared to his comics counterpart. It follows that his programs enchantments would be as well.

[Bazza]

The purpose of Civil War was to break up the Avengers. To put them on the back foot re Infinity War. 

 

The purpose of Ragnarok was to destroy Asgard as a backup. When Infinity War rolls around, Asgard can't come to help cf. Asgard-Shadow Elves War and Asgard vs Frost Giants in Norway. 

 

The purpose of Ragnarok for Thor was to take away everything (deconstruct him, like Jimmy in Quadrophenia) so Thor has to find himself, a spiritual awakening. It works, Thor becomes a better King than Odin. Which would make Odin very happy. But then Odin knew it, he had faith. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Also, she was confirmed as a previous owner of the hammer.

 

Just hinted at in a picture.

[Lord Liaden]

When you get a fresco including yourself holding something painted on the ceiling of a throne room, it's a safe bet it was yours to hold.

[Christopher R Taylor]

So everything painted on the throne room's ceiling is true?

Funny, that's not what Hela said.

[Matt the Bruins]

Well, she didn't make any remarks pooh-pooing the depiction of her holding the hammer like she did the ones depicting Odin as a peaceful and benevolent ruler bringing order to the Nine Worlds. And those murals showed her riding a giant wolf, which we later heard her voicing some attachment to before reanimating it as a giant zombie wolf.

[zslane]

The idea, I think, is that the older fresco reveals "the truth behind the lies", which would include Mjolnir at one time being wielded by Hela. Of course, this breaks with traditional Norse mythology, but that shouldn't surprise anyone at this point.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah but you only had her word for what was real and what wasn't.  And somehow I doubt she was being entirely honest.  I think one picture glimpsed in a moment on a roof isn't proof she ever had Mjolnir.  And even if she did, the enchantment now wouldn't let her hold it, let alone blow it up.  No that was just 'we need to shock audiences, make Thor have to go without all the stuff he takes for granted, and make it at least a little bit plausible that he is captured by normal people.'

[Lord Liaden]

I can remember three examples from the comics of someone catching Mjolnir with their hand. One was Odin, of course, when Beta Ray Bill threw it at him shortly after Bill won it from Thor. Another was Count Nefaria when he first tussled with the Avengers after becoming an "ionic" superhuman. The third was Superman, during the Avengers/Justice League crossover series.

 

So there's comic-book precedent for beings who can catch the hammer, and who can break the hammer as I mentioned earlier. It's just that the power level of that club is pretty rarefied.

[Bazza]

Quote

 Odin: [enchants Mjolnir] Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of THOR! 

[hurls Mjolnir after Thor]  
 
From: IMDB
 

 

Stopping the hammer in mid flight is not holding it, as per the intention of the enchantment. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Obviously Odin, Beta Ray, and Superman were all worthy to hold the hammer.  Nefaria is just one of those "this makes my villain look badass" moments.

[Starlord]

As I recall, Thor 'gave permission' for Superman to have the hammer.  Later on he went to retrieve it and it didn't budge.

[Lord Liaden]

While mentioning the Justice League/Avengers crossover series, it should be noted that Kurt Busiek introduced a bit in the final issue that muddies the "worthiness enchantment" even more. At their desperate last charge to get to Krona, Thor tosses Mjolnir to Superman, but later Superman is unable to pick it up. Thor claims Odin's enchantment allows for worthy wielders other than Superman based on circumstances. "My father is stern, but not stupid."

 

That would suggest the hammer does indeed have some sort of sentience that allows it to "decide" not only if, but when someone can wield it. Looking at the tricks Thor has pulled with Mjolnir in the MCU movies, particularly this last one, it certainly looks like the hammer can steer itself in flight, albeit according to Thor's will.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I think writers have gotten kind of sloppy over the years.  In the case of the JL/A crossover, it was kind of forced by the readers who voted on who they wanted to win each fight, then the writers had to figure out a way to make that work.

[zslane]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

"My father is stern, but not stupid."

 

That would suggest the hammer does indeed have some sort of sentience that allows it to "decide" not only if, but when someone can wield it.

 

Or it suggests that Odin has enough omniscience to see into crossover dimensions and decide if and when someone can wield it.

[Starlord]

27 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah I think writers have gotten kind of sloppy over the years.  In the case of the JL/A crossover, it was kind of forced by the readers who voted on who they wanted to win each fight, then the writers had to figure out a way to make that work.

 

I think that was an earlier crossover.  The one written by Busiek and inked by Perez was excellent IMO.