Thor: Ragnarok spoiler thread

[dmjalund]

18 minutes ago, Starlord said:

Hela wasn't the real villain anyway.  Thor was far more worried about that hair-cutting machine than his sister.

so the hair cutting machine was the real villain?

 

do you think it was working for Thanos?

[Starlord]

5 hours ago, dmjalund said:

so the hair cutting machine was the real villain?

 

do you think it was working for Thanos?

 

If Infinity War is also a nonsensical, zany comic romp, then yes.  Then Vision would be the only Avenger who is safe.

[zslane]

17 hours ago, Bazza said:

"Hela is primarily based on her comic version (the Norse goddess of death and apocalypse), but incorporates traits from Thor's enemy Gorr the God Butcher (an enemy who wields a magic sword and can create constructs)..."

 

Gorr? How random. Knowing the source of the parts that were stitched together doesn't really help it make any more sense. I mean, flying sword constructs are kewl and all, but I'd still tell my player, "Sorry, try again."

[mattingly]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

If Hela's power comes from Asgard, and the people are Asgard, how did blowing the city up help?

 

I don't think it was blowing up the city that killed her, but Surtur's prophesied giant sword of flame. She died trying to defend the city, thinking that it was the source of her power. Thor understood that the city was just a place, and instead took his people to safety.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I don't think it was blowing up the city that killed her, but Surtur's prophesied giant sword of flame. She died trying to defend the city, thinking that it was the source of her power. Thor understood that the city was just a place, and instead took his people to safety.

 

Sure, but that's not what the story had or what Thor decided. His entire argument was that they had to cause Ragnarok in order to stop her, that they had to destroy the city to defeat her.  Which ultimately makes no sense at all.

 

I enjoyed myself in the movie at different points but it really didn't feel like a Thor movie at all, to me.  I get that it did really well but it just didn't feel right at all for Thor, particularly given, oh, 1500 years of tradition and mythology?  Not to mention the last 50 years of comics.

[zslane]

I think one of the major plot points of the film was that Odin sat upon a throne of lies, rewriting history to suit the new more peaceful narrative he wanted his people to believe in. It stands to reason that none of his children, not even Hela who was his co-conqueror for countless eons, would have the full truth regarding their own power or the full details of the cosmos and Asgard's relationship to it. Convincing his offspring that their power comes from Asgard was probably a lie he told them to help insure they would always have a reason to guard and protect it ("it" referring to the people moreso than the place itself). If so, then mattingly makes sense when he says it was Surtur's sword ignited with the Eternal Fire, not the destruction of Asgard, that ultimately defeated Hela.

[Old Man]

15 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Sure, but that's not what the story had or what Thor decided. His entire argument was that they had to cause Ragnarok in order to stop her, that they had to destroy the city to defeat her.  Which ultimately makes no sense at all.

 

My understanding was that only Surtur could defeat Hela, so they hit Hela with a Surtur, and Asgard was collateral damage.  YMMV.

[Doc Shadow]

That makes no sense. Thor had earlier defeated Surtur. In his own realm no less. And Hela had already proven she could defeat Thor.

 

The problem with defeating Hela is that she's the Goddess of Death. Even if you kill her, she just brings herself back.

[Old Man]

Not dead which eternal lie. Stranger aeons, Death may die. 

[Starlord]

Bye, bye,

Miss American pie

 

[dmjalund]

Hela was drawing her power from Asgard. Surtur was destined to destroy Asgard. thus robbing Hela of her source of power, thus defeating her.

[Starlord]

Thor was drawing power from The Immigrant Song.  Thor wins.

 

 

[zslane]

When Thor defeated Surtur at the beginning of the film, Surtur did not have the benefit of being imbued with the Eternal Fire. Once he was reborn from that Flame, Ragnarok was then in full swing and I don't think any Asgardian, not even Odin, would have had the power to stop the destruction of Asgard. The way I see it, Asgard was the target--as decreed by prophecy--and Hela was the collateral damage.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Hela was drawing her power from Asgard. Surtur was destined to destroy Asgard. thus robbing Hela of her source of power, thus defeating her.

 

But then, Thor points out that Asgard is the people, not the place, and they're still alive, with him, on a space ship so...

[Lord Liaden]

Maybe Asgard's ruler drew power from Asgard, but Asgardians have power of their own which isn't dependent on it. Powers like Heimdal's vision, or Loki and Frigga's magic. Or the superhuman strength every Asgardian seems to possess.

 

Once Odin was gone and Hela took over Asgard, she was able to use it to augment her own power.

[Lord Liaden]

9 hours ago, Doc Shadow said:

That makes no sense. Thor had earlier defeated Surtur. In his own realm no less. And Hela had already proven she could defeat Thor.

 

The problem with defeating Hela is that she's the Goddess of Death. Even if you kill her, she just brings herself back.

 

Surtur said he needed the Eternal Flame to regain his full stature and power. What Thor defeated was a pale shadow of that.

 

Hela is the Goddess of Death, but not necessarily the Goddess of coming back from Death. She needed the Eternal Flame to revive her own dead minions.

[Starlord]

The Eternal Flame is awesomely powerful, just look what it did for the career of The Bangles

 

 

[zslane]

Maybe that's what Odin was referring to when he said Hela draws her great power from Asgard; maybe he meant she draws power from the Eternal Fire, something she can really only do if she's on Asgard. Once Surtur was reincarnated from the Flame, it became a contest of who could wield it more potently, with Surtur having the advantage of prophecy on his side.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Maybe the writer was more concerned about what was funny and fit his vision of a Thor movie than making sense or having a coherent plot

[zslane]

Three different writers are given writing credit for the screenplay, and I'm sure many uncredited others were involved. I reject the notion that there was a single unified vision for the screenplay that can explain (or be blamed for) the "logic" behind each narrative element of the film. The fact that we can, with a little discussion, make reasonable sense of things means they did a pretty good job given the odds stacked against them.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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The fact that we can, with a little discussion, make reasonable sense of things means they did a pretty good job given the odds stacked against them.

 

Nah, it just says that people on the internet are so used to lawyer-like sophistry that we can come up with an explanation for any ridiculous plot hole or contradiction despite how wrong they are.  At least one that holds up to initial scrutiny.  Technically, Indiana Jones didn't have to worry about the submarine ever going beneath the surface because (technicality, technicality, speculation, wishcasting).  Technically, wen Indiana Jones almost falls into the pit for stepping on "J" in the Last Crusade, he shouldn't have been able to pull himself back up using other letters not in the name of God because (technicality, technicality, speculation, wishcasting).  That's not a strength of the plot, its a strength of creatively coming up with exceptions, technical arguments, and somewhat plausible excuses.

[Starlord]

There's also no way a man can fly, or people get shot 5 times and keep going, blah, blah, blah.  An explanation is not needed for everything (particularly superheroes, pulp heroes, action heroes, etc.) and the lack thereof does not necessarily make bad writing.

[Matt the Bruins]

I think they should have scaled down and decentralized Hela's power a bit, more along the lines of what she's like in the comics. Make her as strong and tough as Thor with more fighting skill/experience at strategy, the ability to open dimensional portals (handy for escaping exile and for sending Mjolnir out of Thor's grasp without making everyone wonder how she could be powerful enough to casually destroy it), and control over the dead/Valkyries rather than the weather. Then have her show up at the head of an army of the latter and seize control of Asgard after a protracted battle, not just one-shot kill its entire army —including the Warriors Three—and hunt everyone else in the realm to near extinction.

[Lord Liaden]

On the "destroying Mjolnir" front, did anyone else notice on the ceiling mural that Hela uncovered, it showed her holding the hammer? Mjolnir was hers before it belonged to Thor. Her connection to it may have been stronger than his -- she might even have helped create it.

 

Re the "goddess of blades," "death auras," while sounding cool, don't translate as well to fun visuals and fight scenes as conjuring an endless supply of big sharp pointy things. When you get down to it, though, the end result is the same.

[Doc Shadow]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

On the "destroying Mjolnir" front, did anyone else notice on the ceiling mural that Hela uncovered, it showed her holding the hammer? Mjolnir was hers before it belonged to Thor. Her connection to it may have been stronger than his -- she might even have helped create it.

 

Actually, I did notice that. But I figured that was why she was able to catch it. 

 

The real question in my mind was "how" she was able to destroy it. In the end I figured it was just Marvel doing what they've done since Fat Farting Joey Q took over. Breaking everything that was previously unbreakable. To sweep away the old regime of course.