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What's your least favorite version of Champions?

dsatow

By dsatow
in HERO System Discussion

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What is your least favorite version of Champions?  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your least favorite version of Champions?

    • Champions I, II, III
      14
    • Champions 4th Ed (BBB)
      1
    • Champions 5th Ed (FRED)
      4
    • Champions 6th Ed
      13

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dsatow Grand Master

dsatow

Posted
Posted

Because fair is fair and I think this is the harder question.  Note I left out Champions:New Millennium to make it that much harder a choice.

 

I've kept the names hidden in case you don't want people to know.  I'll admit, while it has nostalgia, Champions I,II,III is probably my least favorite.

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Duke Bushido Grand Master

Duke Bushido

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58 minutes ago, dsatow said:

Because fair is fair

 

Yes it is. 

 

58 minutes ago, dsatow said:

and I think this is the harder question. 

 

No it isn't. 

 

Quote

 

Note I left out Champions:New Millennium to make it that much harder a choice

 

Wouldn't have mattered, I'm afraid. ;)

 

9 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

GURPS.....

 

:rofl:: rofl:

 

I'm going to have to find a couple more your posts and stick laughing man on them, too. 

 

That was too funny for just one guffaw. 

 

:D

 

 

Duke 

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Duke Bushido Grand Master

Duke Bushido

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Gentlemen, 

 

through the course of our many adventures together, and the bond we formed over the plundered treasures of many an evil warlord and the spilled blood of corrupt kings, I have come to loves you as brothers in arms, and brothers in spirit.  Thus, it stabs me body and soul to look at that chart up there and realize that amongst those I cherish lurks my nemesis....

 

 

:lol:

 

 

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Hugh Neilson Grand Master

Hugh Neilson

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Hero has become a game design system, rather than a game.  It needs one or more games to sell it in the public.  A Champions game with pre-fab powers and abilities, a Fantasy game with pre-fab spells and races, etc.  The Big Tome is the master rules, but a stripped-down version, or even a version with power construction hidden in the background of pre-fab abilities, would be a game designed using those rules.

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Spence Grand Master

Spence

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5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Hero has become a game design system, rather than a game.  It needs one or more games to sell it in the public.  A Champions game with pre-fab powers and abilities, a Fantasy game with pre-fab spells and races, etc.  The Big Tome is the master rules, but a stripped-down version, or even a version with power construction hidden in the background of pre-fab abilities, would be a game designed using those rules.

 

I almost snorted my drink out of my nose.  Well said and cuts to the heart of what the issue is with Hero. 

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Christopher R Taylor Grand Master

Christopher R Taylor

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The Big Tome is the master rules, but a stripped-down version, or even a version with power construction hidden in the background of pre-fab abilities, would be a game designed using those rules.

 

Which is why for example Monster Hunters Inc, Narosia, and my upcoming Jolrhos setting books are all based on this principle: we took the system and made a game out of it.

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Surrealone Mentor

Surrealone

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I, too, said FRED … mostly because changes from 4e were made in FRED … that then had to be undone (or redone) in 6e -- signaling that what was done to those items in FRED was FUBAR, to begin with.

 

In case a working example is needed, I'll give you a concise one: Regeneration.

 

Sadly, 6e was next on my list -- primarily because the 2-volume set is cumbersome and I really, really liked having a complete game in ~200ish pages back in the 4e days.  

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dsatow Grand Master

dsatow

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On 1/25/2019 at 8:40 PM, Duke Bushido said:

While I won't deny that this has become an amusing surprise (and I really mean it's a surprise) for me, given the length of time it's been up, I don't think we're going to get a significant enough sample size to get any meaningful data here... :(

 

 

Actually, I disagree.  I think the numbers show a couple of points but I think these were already known as true.

 

1) The large number of Champions I, II, III people who dislike it, seems to infer that the changes in unifying the system seems to be good for the users as a whole.

2) The other large point at the other end seems to indicate that major changes to the system from 5th to 6th were not palatable.  Either the major changes were bad or that there is more bad than good from 5th to 6th.

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Christopher R Taylor Grand Master

Christopher R Taylor

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I don't get the sense that people disliked the changes in 5th and 6th so much as the formatting and presentation of the rules.  Very dry, wordy, and without charm or a sense of being a game.  Great for research and creating things, not so great for play.  But he's right, its a tiny sample size so you're not really learning anything from it overall.

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Duke Bushido Grand Master

Duke Bushido

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On 1/23/2019 at 2:52 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Which is why for example Monster Hunters Inc, Narosia, and my upcoming Jolrhos

 

I've picked up MHI,and I've smoked over Narosia pretty hard, but I'm undecided:  would someone who has it be kind enough to tell me if it is actually a complete game, or is it just another fantasy setting book? 

 

And your Jolhros: is it to be essentially a full game? 

 

 

 

 

On 1/23/2019 at 7:13 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

We also have Luchadors and PS 238(?) too.

 

I broke down and bought Lucha HERO (loved it, but I'm also a Lucha fan).  It's wonderful, with lots of information, pleasant reading, power builds, etc,  UT it's got no running gear: it is essentially a highly detailed genre book: you will need a rules book or books to play. 

 

I almost picked up PS 238,  UT I am afraid it might not be self-contained, either. 

 

7 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

1) The large number of Champions I, II, III people who dislike it, seems to infer that the changes in unifying the system seems to be good for the users as a whole

 

I was up all night, trying to finalize my Western HERO project for proofing.  I just wanted to check in here before going to bed.  I freely admit that thinking at the moment can barely qualify to be called thinking at all.  That said, I straight-up don't understand how you arrived at this conclusion.  Can I ask you to break it down a bit? 

 

7 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

 

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Hugh Neilson Grand Master

Hugh Neilson

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Champions 4e, 5e & 6e, or Hero System 4e, 5e and 6e?  Champions 4e, 5e and 6e are not self-contained games, but genre books, with 4e straddling the line by first releasing the rules coupled with the Champions genre book.

 

Between 3e and 4e, the system changed from "a single Superhero game (1e)", followed by "a group of games using a core system tweaked in each game for its genre tropes" (2e/3e) to a game system to design any game you want (4e onwards).

 

While the stats above show pretty broad dislike for /II/III and 6e, the "favorite" poll shows 6e at 38.96% (I/II/III only gets 6.49%). 

 

That would mean that 88.96% of the population considers 6e either the best or the worst of all possible choices (either you love it or you hate it).  That is the smallest spread between "favorite" and "least favorite" of any edition.  The biggest spread is I/II/III.  Presumably, voters are only choosing between editions they are familiar with, which probably reduces the votes on both sides for I/II/III (and maybe even 4e) as they have been out of circulation for a long time.

 

Interpreting a poll like this is pretty challenging, made more so by the small sample size as noted above.

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Christopher R Taylor Grand Master

Christopher R Taylor

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And your Jolhros: is it to be essentially a full game? 

 

That is the intent, with full rules, monsters, a setting, spells, etc.  You will not need anything except my books to play it, but you'll benefit from having the original Hero books as reference for more fiddly and specific things if you want them.

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