Combat luck and armor

[Toxxus]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Tourney helmets are incredibly restrictive. Combat helmets are a bit less so. A Crusaders bucket helm is 8rPD. Helmet off is 6 rPD, for the chain coif and padding beneath. but the Hit Location 3 was 0 rPD. 

 

I feel like the tourney helm basically turns areas 3-5 into a x3 stun multiplier as almost all of the force is transferred to your breastplate and shoulders.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

Well if it's shaped, could be quarter, or half damage reduction too, but a +2 Knockback because of the rigidity. Maybe not. as they do tend to be Pike nose shaped.

 

1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

I feel like the tourney helm basically turns areas 3-5 into a x3 stun multiplier as almost all of the force is transferred to your breastplate and shoulders.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Well that's one way of looking at it.  Another would be to take it as written: that were this not a printed power everyone just took without bothering to think it over then the discussion would take on another flavor entirely.

 

Does everyone "just take it without thinking", or do a lot of players see this and think "that is the cinematic lightly/no armored character gets shot at multiple times and emerges uninjured trope - just the thing I was looking for"?  There are plenty of ways to look at it.

 

It can be common because it's often in genre.  A lot of players buy WF:  Melee Weapons in a Fantasy game.  Pretty much everyone buys extra CON, too.  That does not make it inappropriate or out of concept. 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 2/25/2019 at 7:49 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Practically, Combat Luck showed up because every character in a typical Hero game needs resistant defenses, or some other means of dealing with BOD damage from killing attacks, to survive due to the Killing Damage mechanic.  Characters who don't look like they have rDEF were simply reasoned from effect to clearly have some, as they don't die in the source material so they must have some protection.  Call it "Plot Armor" and it would be the same construct.

My Ninja character is an example of this. I forget what happened but I took a lot of Body in a game so the GM gave me Armor suit 5 Def OIF. Now it’s not in my conception for him to have it. When 5th came out and Combat luck, I went aha! Now he has Combat Luck but no armor. It suits the character better.

[Doc Democracy]

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Does everyone "just take it without thinking", or do a lot of players see this and think "that is the cinematic lightly/no armored character gets shot at multiple times and emerges uninjured trope - just the thing I was looking for"?  There are plenty of ways to look at it.

 

It can be common because it's often in genre.  A lot of players buy WF:  Melee Weapons in a Fantasy game.  Pretty much everyone buys extra CON, too.  That does not make it inappropriate or out of concept. 

 

My biggest problem is not that players take it but the characters act as If they have armour (because the player knows - bad rpg-ing, right).

 

The characters in books that have combat luck do not act as if they are armoured, they "know" a bullet will take them out.  The player knows a bullet will not.  The cowboys of legend did not walk down the middle of the street, trusting to their combat luck.  

 

Their is something missing from the build that makes the players act properly, it should be more reliable than 14-, and I don't want additional dice rolls (what a bore for everyone) but I want moments when it is obvious.  I think I might be happier with instant one off regen "I'm hit!  Just flesh wound though", you get more of the impacts of combat but less fatality.  Of course the regen would come with resurrection adder, the character goes down, dead until someone checks them "he's still breathing!!!"

 

Also does the Die Hard bit of walking over broken glass but sprinting after the bad guys a few scenes later.

[dmjalund]

how about each 6 rolled completely ignores combat luck

[Ninja-Bear]

Doc I’ve never seen players act invulnerable from having Combat Luck. Most pistols do around what 1 1/2D6? Even at 1D6 the chance of taking Body usually makes catious characters still cautious. (Of course I ran my Ninja without it as if I wouldn’t take Body. I ran around with 1 Body already ?)

[Doc Democracy]

I might even require characters with combat luck, when they take reduced or no damage due to that luck, to make a PRE roll modified by the BODY of the attack, or have their next action to be a defensive one such as dive for cover, take cover, or something appropriate, for the character to have a "That was CLOSE!" style moment...

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

That’s not unreasonable Doc.

[Doc Democracy]

44 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s not unreasonable Doc.

 

It might satisfy my narrative needs for this construct to be comfortable in my head! ?

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

My biggest problem is not that players take it but the characters act as If they have armour (because the player knows - bad rpg-ing, right).

 

The characters in books that have combat luck do not act as if they are armoured, they "know" a bullet will take them out.  The player knows a bullet will not.  The cowboys of legend did not walk down the middle of the street, trusting to their combat luck.  

 

Their is something missing from the build that makes the players act properly, it should be more reliable than 14-, and I don't want additional dice rolls (what a bore for everyone) but I want moments when it is obvious.  I think I might be happier with instant one off regen "I'm hit!  Just flesh wound though", you get more of the impacts of combat but less fatality.  Of course the regen would come with resurrection adder, the character goes down, dead until someone checks them "he's still breathing!!!"

 

What if that vague "luck-based" limitation were interpreted to mean "if you rely on it, it isn't there"?  It does not work if you throw yourself in harm's way.  Walking down the street in a gunfight feels like throwing yourself in harm's way.  In other words, luck is most inclined to fail when you rely upon it

 

Now, if we were dealing with a character whose schtick is "good luck prevents him from being hurt" (a la the initial Woozy Winks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woozy_Winks), then trusting to luck seems a little more reasonable - but it's not Combat Luck as it appears in the book then.

[RDU Neil]

On 2/26/2019 at 6:31 PM, Old Man said:

 

Of course it's not that bad.  But playing an unarmored character in a killing-damage heroic campaign is very all-or-nothing in a way that's not always fun.  Especially if hit locations are used.

 

Actually a good example of this in my bi-weekly game last night. Three PCs infiltrated the penthouse of a Milanese mob boss, got into a shoot out with some hired killers... named bad guys. One of the killers was surprised, out of combat, by a PC, who hit with 2 9mm rounds, one in his chest one through his arm... no Combat Luck as it doesn't apply when surprised out of combat. Bad guy was badly wounded but alive, but CON Stunned, so the follow up two shots to the head were, again, no Combat Luck applied (character incapacitated, even temporarily) and bad guy is gone, dropped without getting a chance to act.

In another part of the Penthouse, another bad guy made his Danger Sense roll and was prepared... started blowing holes through the walls with a .460 S&W. None of the characters had body armor, but all named characters have 1 level of Combat Luck. In this fight, the bad guy got one good look at a PC (lots of dodging down hallways, grenades going off, blowing through cheap interior walls going on... took a while for the fight to get face-to-face)... and hit... it was a leg shot, rolled badly... so with CL and 1/2 damage for hit location it ended up being a 2 body damage "nick" rather than blowing the limb off. Later, when the combat got in close, a PC got his 9mm close up and headshotted the big (very big) bad guy, but he had CL, so instead of likely dead and at least CON stunned, it was a bloody crease across the scalp and not enough to CON stun.

This fight was one of the most cinematic and fun fights, and it worked because we had nominally "unarmored" characters simply not going down with the first lucky hit. Nobody "wanted" to get hit and a decent roll to a dangerous hit location would still be really bad, but the difference in CL vs. non-CL is huge in actual play.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok I’m beating this thread but I just had a fridge (bathroom) logic moment. For the anti-combat Luck, Block works exactly like “I hit no you miss” especially in the older editions where the defender rolls

after a successful hit. So mechanically no damage is done with a successful Block. I guess the counter argument is that it’s still a hit even though the Block countered it. Then my counter to the counter is then it really doesn’t matter with sfx, or it really shouldn’t. ?

[dmjalund]

but being hit still does knockback even if it does no damage

[Ninja-Bear]

8 hours ago, dmjalund said:

but being hit still does knockback even if it does no damage

Not if you block it.

[Chris Goodwin]

A Block also has to be declared before the attack roll.  

 

How about this: the GM has to decide whether the Combat Luck kicks in before the attack is rolled.  Players get the benefit of the doubt, NPCs don't.  The GM has to cue the player in before the dice roll.  Something like, "As you swing your sword, you can see him twist just slightly.  Go ahead and roll."

[Scott Ruggels]

13 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Ok I’m beating this thread but I just had a fridge (bathroom) logic moment. For the anti-combat Luck, Block works exactly like “I hit no you miss” especially in the older editions where the defender rolls

after a successful hit. So mechanically no damage is done with a successful Block. I guess the counter argument is that it’s still a hit even though the Block countered it. Then my counter to the counter is then it really doesn’t matter with sfx, or it really shouldn’t. ?

 

 

Hmmm. Well you convinced me about it.

[mallet]

The only time it would matter is if the attacker has some sort of effect that happens if he/she hits, even if damage isn't done. For example, a damage shield. 

So in the case of a block, the hit might do no damage, but the effect of the Damage Shield would still occur. 

No, how this applies to Combat Luck would, possibly, be different. Does the Combat Luck means the Character "dodged" the attack and wasn't hit at all, or that they "rolled with the hit", meaning they got hit, but moved with it so they took no damage, in which case a Damage Shield would still affect them. 

[Scott Ruggels]

2 hours ago, mallet said:

The only time it would matter is if the attacker has some sort of effect that happens if he/she hits, even if damage isn't done. For example, a damage shield. 

So in the case of a block, the hit might do no damage, but the effect of the Damage Shield would still occur. 

No, how this applies to Combat Luck would, possibly, be different. Does the Combat Luck means the Character "dodged" the attack and wasn't hit at all, or that they "rolled with the hit", meaning they got hit, but moved with it so they took no damage, in which case a Damage Shield would still affect them. 

 You guys are making my head hurt.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, mallet said:

The only time it would matter is if the attacker has some sort of effect that happens if he/she hits, even if damage isn't done. For example, a damage shield. 

So in the case of a block, the hit might do no damage, but the effect of the Damage Shield would still occur. 

No, how this applies to Combat Luck would, possibly, be different. Does the Combat Luck means the Character "dodged" the attack and wasn't hit at all, or that they "rolled with the hit", meaning they got hit, but moved with it so they took no damage, in which case a Damage Shield would still affect them. 

 

Mechanically, he was hit.  The damage shield would also hit.  I find it rare that defenses, including combat luck, block all damage anyway (STUN and BOD), which also means the target was hit.  That also means if I have Combat Luck and a DS, I was still hit so the attacker still takes damage

[Christopher]

On 2/28/2019 at 4:47 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

Actually a good example of this in my bi-weekly game last night. Three PCs infiltrated the penthouse of a Milanese mob boss, got into a shoot out with some hired killers... named bad guys. One of the killers was surprised, out of combat, by a PC, who hit with 2 9mm rounds, one in his chest one through his arm... no Combat Luck as it doesn't apply when surprised out of combat. Bad guy was badly wounded but alive, but CON Stunned, so the follow up two shots to the head were, again, no Combat Luck applied (character incapacitated, even temporarily) and bad guy is gone, dropped without getting a chance to act.

In another part of the Penthouse, another bad guy made his Danger Sense roll and was prepared... started blowing holes through the walls with a .460 S&W. None of the characters had body armor, but all named characters have 1 level of Combat Luck. In this fight, the bad guy got one good look at a PC (lots of dodging down hallways, grenades going off, blowing through cheap interior walls going on... took a while for the fight to get face-to-face)... and hit... it was a leg shot, rolled badly... so with CL and 1/2 damage for hit location it ended up being a 2 body damage "nick" rather than blowing the limb off. Later, when the combat got in close, a PC got his 9mm close up and headshotted the big (very big) bad guy, but he had CL, so instead of likely dead and at least CON stunned, it was a bloody crease across the scalp and not enough to CON stun. 

This fight was one of the most cinematic and fun fights, and it worked because we had nominally "unarmored" characters simply not going down with the first lucky hit. Nobody "wanted" to get hit and a decent roll to a dangerous hit location would still be really bad, but the difference in CL vs. non-CL is huge in actual play. 

If you bring combat luck to a fight, you are not unarmored.

Nominal can mean a lot of things, but in this case it clearly means "unarmored in name only".

[JohnBear]

1 word...

 

Hit Locations

 

OK that's 2.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

Actually a good example of this in my bi-weekly game last night.

 

 

The question I have to ask is: why did everyone in that fight have combat luck?

I mean other than "dang that will be useful"

 

Because it seems like this is an ability that requires some explanation not just "well he's a mook and I don't want him to be hurt too badly" or "I don't like taking body damage"  Its like everyone having luck or combat sense because they're useful.

[RDU Neil]

41 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The question I have to ask is: why did everyone in that fight have combat luck?

I mean other than "dang that will be useful"

 

Because it seems like this is an ability that requires some explanation not just "well he's a mook and I don't want him to be hurt too badly" or "I don't like taking body damage"  Its like everyone having luck or combat sense because they're useful.

 

All PCs and named combat opponents have Combat Luck. It is just a mechanical way to separate them from the mooks or non-combatant types for the feel of the game we want. The two bad guys were Callous McGee and Antonio Cabrini... and I'm writing a short story called "The Tough Life and Bad Death of Callous McGee" because I liked this bad guy and he died on the phone and that kind of tragedy deserves a story.

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Because it seems like this is an ability that requires some explanation not just "well he's a mook and I don't want him to be hurt too badly" or "I don't like taking body damage"  Its like everyone having luck or combat sense because they're useful.

 

Isn't that exactly what it simulates?  The author does not want this character hurt too badly, so no one ever lands a solid hit, despite the lack of any reason that he never gets seriously injured other than pure, blind luck.  That is the cinematic ability we are trying to simulate in-game.