See Invisible

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

The invisibility topic got me thinking.  See Invisible is a pretty simple D&D spell.  Given that Sight can have a bunch of adders strapped to it, how do you do it in HERO as a one-size-fits-all spell? 

[archer]

You could do it as a straight Detect Invisible sense.

 

From what I can tell, that should work unless the person specifically bought Invisibility against "Detect Invisible".

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

2 minutes ago, archer said:

You could do it as a straight Detect Invisible sense.

 

From what I can tell, that should work unless the person specifically bought Invisibility against "Detect Invisible".

Sure, but how? 

Sight Group Detect (Invisible things) doesn't work because they're invisible to the sight group. 

Unusual Group Detect (Invisible things) doesn't conserve sight group adders.  So if my wizard buddy casts See Invisible, it doesn't work with R2-ShootU's 360-degree vision?  That makes no sense. 

[Christopher]

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The invisibility topic got me thinking.  See Invisible is a pretty simple D&D spell.  Given that Sight can have a bunch of adders strapped to it, how do you do it in HERO as a one-size-fits-all spell? 

Whatever you built, it can not be put into the sight group.

Invisibiltiy like all Sense Affecting Powers (unless Limited) affect a whole Sense Group by default.

 

39 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Unusual Group Detect (Invisible things) doesn't conserve sight group adders.

That makes it both expensive and quite possible

That is the way you have to go.

 

Now if you asked for something like Fearie Fire, it would be actually hard to simulate.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Christopher

[archer]

36 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Unusual Group Detect (Invisible things) doesn't conserve sight group adders.  So if my wizard buddy casts See Invisible, it doesn't work with R2-ShootU's 360-degree vision?  That makes no sense. 

 

Unusual Group Detects doesn't conserve sight group adders, for me at least.

 

My metal detector doesn't work through my microscope. My mystical Detect Orcs doesn't work with my telescope so I'm never going to detect those Orcs on the moon.

 

I can think of certain SFX where an Unusual Group Detect might seem sensible for it to work with sight group adders. But I wouldn't personally allow when the Invisibility character used points to make sure that doesn't happen.

[Duke Bushido]

Dispell / suppress Invisibility

[BoloOfEarth]

Detect Invisibility (Unusual Group), Sense, Range.  12 points, not horribly expensive.  Add Targeting, bumps it up to 22.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

I clearly haven't communicated well. 

D&D See Invisible lets you see things as though they weren't invisible. 

HERO has a bunch of adders that provide ways to see better. 

Building See Invisible as a non-sight detect means the subject of See Invisible won't benefit from their sight adders which contradicts the SFX of seeing the invisible. 

[Christopher]

9 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Detect Invisibility (Unusual Group), Sense, Range.  12 points, not horribly expensive.  Add Targeting, bumps it up to 22.

Normally such a sense would allow you to see and attack everyone and anything.

 

But in this case, it only works on people that are invisible to sight.

It does not work in Darkness, if your sight is Flashed or any of the other cases where you Sight targetting sense does not work.

So a limitation might be in order.

[Christopher]

9 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Building See Invisible as a non-sight detect means the subject of See Invisible won't benefit from their sight adders which contradicts the SFX of seeing the invisible. 

Allowing you to use those adders would be against the Rules for Invisibility and Sense Groups.  So that ship has sailed centuries ago.

[Toxxus]

This is one of those areas where HERO has absolutes and it suffers from the clunkiness that absolutes cause.

 

I would recommend something along the lines of Invisibility having a base cost and then a flat cost per rank of invisibility.

 

This could be opposed by ranks of a house-ruled "See Invisible" adder with ties resulting in perception rolls to just make out the invisible target.

[TranquiloUno]

I think the key question is if you want to specifically emulate the specific D&D spell SEE Invisible.

Or if you want to do it Hero style and emulate the effect of See Invis and then wave your hands and say, "the special effect is they see the invisible", right?

 

Also questions like: Is this an exercise for NPC usage as a construct? Or does it need to be point efficient because a PC is wanting it?

 

Like you could go with Spatial Awareness (only to detect invisible) or something.

Or slap Penetrating as a naked advantange on the AP of base sight and call it good. ;D

 

You could go with an AoE Invis Suppress limited so only the caster\recipient of the spell get the effects (maybe...IPE on the Suppress of Invis?)

 

 

[John Desmarais]

18 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I clearly haven't communicated well. 

D&D See Invisible lets you see things as though they weren't invisible. 

HERO has a bunch of adders that provide ways to see better. 

Building See Invisible as a non-sight detect means the subject of See Invisible won't benefit from their sight adders which contradicts the SFX of seeing the invisible. 

 

Nothing stops you from putting your Detect into the Sight group. Unusual Senses are usually grouped according to their special effect. For example, if a character has the ability to smell water, his Detect Water becomes part of his Smell/Taste Group. is is called the Simulated Sense Group rule.  (HS6Ev1, pg 207)  Any modifiers the character has to their Sight Group senses would come into play (as would any Sense Group targeted attacks).

 

Anything beyond that is really kind of the expected issues when trying to duplicate the mechanics of another game rather than the concept - exacerbated by trying to also take advantage of the unique mechanics of the target system.

[Christopher]

36 minutes ago, John Desmarais said:

Nothing stops you from putting your Detect into the Sight group.

The advantage of putting any new Sense in a existing Sense Group, is that you get a ton of free adders.

The disadvantage of putting any new Sense in a Existing Group, is that "Sense Affecting Power: Specific Sense Group" works fully against them.

 

Putting "Detect Sight Invisible Creatures" into the Sight Group is thus self defeating.

[dsatow]

In Hero Designer simple create the detect as a sight based power and then take for a -0 limitation Sense affected as another sense (magic sense).

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 hour ago, dsatow said:

sight based power and then take for a -0 limitation Sense affected as another sense (magic sense).

That is perfect. 

[Lucius]

2 hours ago, dsatow said:

In Hero Designer simple create the detect as a sight based power and then take for a -0 limitation Sense affected as another sense (magic sense).

 

Shouldn't that actually be an Advantage?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says you're certainly taking Advantage of it....

 

[Scott Ruggels]

I'd say that any "Targeting Sense" other than  visual sightgroup, would ignore invisibility. Radar sense, sonar sense, Seismic sense, all can bypass "invisibility".

[Christopher]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I'd say that any "Targeting Sense" other than  visual sightgroup, would ignore invisibility. Radar sense, sonar sense, Seismic sense, all can bypass "invisibility".

By Raw Sense Affecting Powers affect a entire Sense Group and any sense you put in that group to get the free Sense Modifiers.

If they affect less, that is actually a limitation on the Power.

 

Radio Group Sense Affecting Powers would usually affect Radar Sense*.

Hearing Group Sense Affecting Powrs would usually counter Sonar Sense*.

And i have no idea what Sense Group you would put "Seismic" in. I could put it both into Hearing and Touch Groups.

 

*I asume you put them in the obvious Sense Groups, as you did not define the Sense Group. Wich is kind of the most important part of the whole examples

 

18 hours ago, Lucius said:

Shouldn't that actually be an Advantage?

Absolutely an Advantage, and a Huge one at that. +1 to +2 I would say.

You ignore "Invisibiltiy: Sight Group" while Maintaining your Sight Group Modifiers.

[Scott Ruggels]

6 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

And i have no idea what Sense Group you would put "Seismic" in. I could put it both into Hearing and Touch Groups.

 

*I asume you put them in the obvious Sense Groups, as you did not define the Sense Group. Wich is kind of the most important part of the whole examples

 

 

We went up against a villain once who could tell exactly where you were in a room or building by touching the floor or wall (sense touch), and vy how it vibrated. Once you put your feet on the ground he knew exactly where you were. He was a bitch and a half to fight, as one of ours was an illusionist. However if one of our two flyers made their stealth roll, they could "swim" through a building with him none the wiser. (The other flyer was me, and my flight special effects were noisy).  He took 2x stun from any AOE Explosions (special effects explosions, ordinance, or any attacks that did damage through shockwaves).  When we beat him the third time we met him, one of our more rewarding victories. I never saw the build sheet, but my thinking was it may have been spatial awareness, but it could have been N-Ray vision except it wasn't vision but touch. with special limitations? it was weird. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Bolo's build does exactly what you are looking for.  Define it as seeing invisible and voila, 22 points to see invisible things.

 

Another approach is partly penetrative sight: blocked by solid objects.  This will let you see ANYTHING in any light, through any illusion, but not through walls, etc.

 

Typically, you should build invisibility with a weakness or hole in it that spells and effects like this; that is, don't buy invis to all possible sense variations, just ordinary sight, so IR vision for example can see it.

[Christopher]

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

We went up against a villain once who could tell exactly where you were in a room or building by touching the floor or wall (sense touch), and vy how it vibrated. Once you put your feet on the ground he knew exactly where you were. He was a bitch and a half to fight, as one of ours was an illusionist. However if one of our two flyers made their stealth roll, they could "swim" through a building with him none the wiser. (The other flyer was me, and my flight special effects were noisy).  He took 2x stun from any AOE Explosions (special effects explosions, ordinance, or any attacks that did damage through shockwaves).  When we beat him the third time we met him, one of our more rewarding victories. I never saw the build sheet, but my thinking was it may have been spatial awareness, but it could have been N-Ray vision except it wasn't vision but touch. with special limitations? it was weird. 

That is a case where "Invisibility: Touch Sense Group" would be valid and work.

 

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Typically, you should build invisibility with a weakness or hole in it that spells and effects like this; that is, don't buy invis to all possible sense variations, just ordinary sight, so IR vision for example can see it. 

This whole thread sprang from a thread that was speceific to a Heroic game.

And low level D&D Spells are more on the Heroic Level.

So "Invisibility: Sight Sense Group, Only Affects Normal Sight(-?)" would be highly appropirate.