Cumulative & aid - 6th edition

[Doc Democracy]

I know Aid is cumulative but I remember older editions allowed you to increase the maximum effect.  I don’t see that in the sixth edition rules.

 

Cumulative allows effectsto be added and max effect to be increased for additional +1/4 advantage.

 

If I wanted to increase the max effect of my Aid STR power would I have to buy+1/2 cumulative before buying the +1/4 increased maximum effect advantages?  Given aid is already cumulative, would the first +1/2 increase the maximum effect?

 

Really trawling round rules I rarely use except in vanilla ways...

 

Doc

[Chris Goodwin]

By strict reading of 6e1 you're not supposed to.  It is done in Champions Complete, though.  

[Doc Democracy]

If you couldn't do the adder you could just buy dice limited with "only to extend maximum".  Easily worth -1 if not more...

[Chris Goodwin]

51 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

If you couldn't do the adder you could just buy dice limited with "only to extend maximum".  Easily worth -1 if not more...

 

I think that's how you're "supposed" to do it in 6e.  Derek used the "Increased Maximum" Advantage for the "The Madder I Get, The Stronger I Get" power in CC, so... I guess it's a thing in CC.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah increased maximum just makes sense, I did not like removing it.  Probably Steve had someone abuse it badly and just decided it should be avoided

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Increased Maximum is very easy to abuse. 

An egregious example would be Aid Foo 1d6, Constant (+1/2), Delayed Return Rate (+1), 0 END Cost (+1/2), Increased Maximum x4 (+1).  This costs 24 real and provides more than 24 AP worth of Foo to an arbitrary number of characters for as long as you want. 

Even just Aid Foo 2d6, Increased Maximum (+1/4) is potentially highly abusive, since it costs 15 and can add 24 if the user has time to apply it.  Not hard to imagine a character keeping himself pumped up between fights, or even keeping his group topped off. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its not really the increased max that's the problem, its the delayed return (which in 6th had that first step heavily increased).  But a way of preventing the increased maximum from exaggerating that is to not let it double, but simply add.  You get the same max added again, each time.  So 3d6 with a +¼ increased max gives you another 18 points max.  For +½ you get 36 extra points max, etc.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

14 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its not really the increased max that's the problem, its the delayed return (which in 6th had that first step heavily increased).  But a way of preventing the increased maximum from exaggerating that is to not let it double, but simply add.  You get the same max added again, each time.  So 3d6 with a +¼ increased max gives you another 18 points max.  For +½ you get 36 extra points max, etc.

That still gets you +N maximum for +N/4 cost.  Reference my second example, which has the potential to be heavily abused. 

Shifting the math on Increased Maximum helps the problem, but never fully corrects it.  That's not to say Increased Maximum has no place in HERO, because it can be very useful for a number of constucts.  It just needs to be handled very carefully. 

 

I'd also argue that it's the 0 END and Constant in the first example that make it broken, not DRR.  Shaving off DRR just puts a dip after 12, but the power corrects that in a couple phases.  With a second dice and standard effect, it'd always restore to full on the user's first phase each turn. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah a Gm has to keep a close watch on it like many powers, such as saying "if you always have that stat at that level, you should buy that stat up, not use aid as an end run around it."

[Gauntlet]

Unfortunately it also makes trying to do a transfer almost useless if you don't purchase a huge drain. I am trying to create a villain in 6th Edition who can Transfer Speed to himself. I want him to be able to drain one point of speed at a time but then the max amount of speed he can gain is two. If I want him to have the capacity to get from 4 speed to 12 I would have to have to have him drain all your speed in one shot.

[Grailknight]

11 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Unfortunately it also makes trying to do a transfer almost useless if you don't purchase a huge drain. I am trying to create a villain in 6th Edition who can Transfer Speed to himself. I want him to be able to drain one point of speed at a time but then the max amount of speed he can gain is two. If I want him to have the capacity to get from 4 speed to 12 I would have to have to have him drain all your speed in one shot.

 

You have to be careful with Transfer(Drain/Aid combo) especially of all the Adjustment Powers because it helps the user and hurts the target simultaneously.

 

If I was doing your concept, I would buy limited SPD, matching up to the amount currently Aided. Not as elegant, but it gets the job done. 

[Derek Hiemforth]

On 3/28/2019 at 3:40 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I think that's how you're "supposed" to do it in 6e.  Derek used the "Increased Maximum" Advantage for the "The Madder I Get, The Stronger I Get" power in CC, so... I guess it's a thing in CC.

 

It was an oversight on my part that Aid was supposed to be excluded from Increased Maximum Effect.  So yes, it's (accidentally) allowed in CC as written.   

[DreadDomain]

It's  only yesterday I was looking at the Jade Brute in the HERO System Templates and I was wondering why his "Strongest there is" power was built that way (essentially a few STR+5 with various delays). Surely this is what Aid is for, I thought. Buy enough Aid to get a standard effect of +5 per phase, increase the maximum to whatever you need and add the appropriate advantages and limitations required and done. Easy.

 

I was flabbergasted to realize the adder to increase maximum effect on Aid was last seen in 4th Edition! Looking at the advantages, I thought the most appropriate would be Cumulative or Damage Over Time, which specifically states it can be used as Effect Over Time.

 

The write-up with Cumulative ends up costing 15 points to potentially increase STR by 72 over 15 phases while the write up with Damage Over time costs 24 points to potentially increase STR by 60 over 12 phases. One huge difference is that Cumulative doubles each +¼ while Damage Over Time works in increment.

 

The Strongest There Is! (38 Active Points, 15 Real Points)

Aid STR  1 ½d6 (standard effect: 5 points), up to + 72

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1)

Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/2), Cumulative (up to 72 points; +1 1/4)

Only to Aid Self (-1)

Power Fades Upon Recovering From Enraged (-1/2)

 

The Strongest There Is! (61 Active Points, 24 Real Points)

Aid STR  1 ½d6 (standard effect: 5 points), up to + 60

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1)

Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4),

Damage Over Time (12 damage increments, damage occurs every other Segment, +4)

Only to Aid Self (-1)

Power Fades Upon Recovering From Enraged (-1/2)

 

Now what if we use an Adder similar to what was in 4^th (+2 to max by +1 pts)? The short of it, it becomes even more expensive. While I prefer the Adder method from 4^th, +2 per 1 pts is probably not the right cost. When you think about it, I could buy STR+60, Only when Enraged -½ for 40 points instead and have the whole +60 available the moment I because enraged (well, not me, my character).

 

The Strongest There Is! (96 Active Points, 38 Real Points)

Aid STR  1 ½d6 (standard effect: 5 points), Increased maximum to + 61

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1)

Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4),

Only to Aid Self (-1)

Power Fades Upon Recovering From Enraged (-1/2)

 

Any thought on which approach (Cumulative or Damage Over Time) gives a more balanced cost?. As an exercise, by using STR +5 with Only when Enraged -½ and with limitations similar to the Extra Time table. Assuming an extra +5 plus be triggered each phase for 2 Turns (which means the limitations for the second turn is topped at -1½), the cost comes at 23, 24 points. It feels like it is more in line with Damage over Time than it is with Cumulative.

 

Which also brings the question, are DoT and Cumulative trying to accomplish the same thing but in different ways?

[Grailknight]

Not really, Cumulative is inherent to Transform and Aid and can be added to Mental Powers only. It's role is to enhance those types of Powers so that repeated uses of a Power can achieve a higher threshold (2x+ on Transform, max effect on Aid, higher Effect level on Mental Powers) than a single roll can. Without it, these Powers run into an issue of being all or nothing to an extreme. 

 

Damage over Time, is more to simulate long lasting but slow effects(compared to the Hero combat timeframe) like poisons or diseases or fire and forget lingering attacks like acid or thermite. It overlaps more with Constant than Cumulative. You can place it on Transform or Mental Powers but the effectiveness is so great that it falls more in the realms of plot devices. Aid doesn't need it because it reaches it's maximum effect in two applications given average rolls.  

 

Both are powerful Advantages that need GM oversight. If you bring back Increased  Maximum Effect for Aid,  you just add another thing for the GM to monitor. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

In 6th edition, transform is already inherently cumulative, so you don't have to purchase that on top of it.  You can buy cumulative on anything except powers which are already cumulative (most attack powers that do stun and body) or powers that specifically state they cannot be purchased with cumulative (such as Aid or any other power that increases points, or Entangle).  Most adjustment powers can be bought cumulative, for instance (such as dispel).

 

But this doesn't really address the problems with Aids that can build up to more points than the dice allow, and I think Hero does need some kind of mechanic to address that other than the clunky "just buy more dice, dude" approach.

[Asperion]

Here's a wonderful twist on how bricks could defeat their foes  - every time the opponent hits the brick the brick will absorb some of their STR. 

 

40 BODY Absorption; Resistant Defense; Requires Attack that Uses HTH Roll (53)

 

This is a quick write-up using 6e rules.  If anyone has mods or comments,  I would like to hear them. 

[DreadDomain]

6 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Damage over Time ... Aid doesn't need it because it reaches it's maximum effect in two applications given average rolls.  

Good points regarding Cumulative vs DoT. Regarding DoT, you are correct, it requires the GM to waive the "Maximum Effect". It mentions waiving the "Repeated Use" of Healing but not Maximi Effect specifically. Ok, it's probably a bridge too far and DoT is not appropriate to increase the Maximum effect of Aid. And probably too clunky anyway.

 

6 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Both are powerful Advantages that need GM oversight. If you bring back Increased  Maximum Effect for Aid,  you just add another thing for the GM to monitor. 

It's the other way around, in my opinion. Bringing back Increased Maximum Effect (as an Adder, not an advantage) removes ambiguity on how it's supposed to work. In 4th, there was never any confusion about it. It was right there in the write-up of Aid.

 

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

In 6th edition... You can buy cumulative on anything except powers which are already cumulative (most attack powers that do stun and body) or powers that specifically state they cannot be purchased with cumulative (such as Aid or any other power that increases points, or Entangle).  Most adjustment powers can be bought cumulative, for instance (such as dispel).

True, I was bending the rules with Cumulative as well because it felt appropriate even if specifically forbidden. I undersatnd why, it can easily be abused.

 

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

But this doesn't really address the problems with Aids that can build up to more points than the dice allow, and I think Hero does need some kind of mechanic to address that other than the clunky "just buy more dice, dude" approach.

Apparently, there are no ways to increase maximum effect in 6th, or at least not clearly started.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Apparently, there are no ways to increase maximum effect in 6th, or at least not clearly started.

 

The implication is "buy more dice of Aid with 'only to increase maximum' as a limitation on it"

[DreadDomain]

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The implication is "buy more dice of Aid with 'only to increase maximum' as a limitation on it"

Agreed. It's an implication and (I don't believe) the value of the limitation is stated anywhere. 

[eepjr24]

[eepjr24]

If you do the math at -1:

 

6 points at -1 is 3 points. That is 1 point for 2 points added, same as it was in 4e. It doesn't work out quite as well for 1 pip or 1/2d6 of aid, but if you just keep it to 1 for 2 it works out well enough IMO. Otherwise I would be in favor of some other sort of linear increase, doubling seems to be easily abused.

 

- E

[unclevlad]

If I were to allow this, I would consider including limiting how large the cap becomes, or how many extra dice you can add with that limitation.  The model I'm thinking is Entangle.  If you buy Nd6, then the additional DEF allowed is only 2N.  So a 4 dice entangle has a maximum of 12 PD or ED.

 

So if it's 3d6 Aid, then at most you could buy 6d6 with Only to Increase the Maximum.  

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I would be in favor of some other sort of linear increase, doubling seems to be easily abused.

 

I agree, just add the same amount each time?  The main problem with the past was a combination of super cheap longevity and doublings.  Combine those and it gets ridiculous in a hurry.  Remove both of those and I think we're okay.  With 6th edition, going from recover per turn to recover per minute (Basically, combat to out of combat) is +1, then +¼ for each step up the time chart.  So the longevity problem is pretty well handled.