No Damage Knockback

[MechaniCat]

I'm looking to make a power that would knock an opponent away but not do damage. A strong push more or less.

 

The only thing I can really think of would be an HA or HKA with "No Stun", "Body damage only for Knockback", and probably "Penetrating" or "Armor Piercing" for consistency.;

That seems clunky though? So I thought I'd ask the forums just in case there's something I overlooked. Also I'm unsure of what values the above would have.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

I've used Leaping, Usable As Attack, Instant.  If you hit, the target moves.  Nice and simple. 

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, this comes under the banner of looking at the effect you are looking for.

 

Knockback is an adjunct of damage.  Damage powers have a primary purpose of doing damage.  It is "odd" to use a power in which you limit away it's primary purpose.

 

As GB suggests, a movement power, usable as an attack, provides the primary purpose of movement.  Movement, usable as an attack, can be extremely effective unless you properly define it and think about how targets might resist.

 

In this case, I think you are already there. Choose a movement power, apply UAA, then indicate what resists that movement.  You can simply indicate that everything that defends against KB defends against your attack.  If your attack moves someone 12m, that gets reduced by density increase, clinging, bracing, etc.  I would allow a -1/2 limitation of (reduced by 2D6m) to provide the same variability of KB.

 

Doc

[dmjalund]

But you'd have to define the power to be resistible using Knockback Resistance

[Doc Democracy]

6 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

But you'd have to define the power to be resistible using Knockback Resistance

 

To be 100% accurate, he would not have to, but if the idea was to build something that looked and felt like knockback, then it would only be right to include KB resistance along with all of the other things that defend against KB.

 

Doc

[Grailknight]

If all you want is Knockback, then the best power for that is Blast with the Double Knockback advantage and whatever Limitation you decide for "Does no STUN & BODY"(-2 IMO).

 

 You don't need Armor Piercing or Penetrating, those only affect damage done. 

 

The Movement UAA powers options will give you more control over where your target ends up however.

 

 

[Tom Cowan]

Add TK to the list of ways to do it.  TK only to toss the target...  -1 1/2?

[ScottishFox]

3 hours ago, Grailknight said:

If all you want is Knockback, then the best power for that is Blast with the Double Knockback advantage and whatever Limitation you decide for "Does no STUN & BODY"(-2 IMO).

 

 You don't need Armor Piercing or Penetrating, those only affect damage done. 

 

The Movement UAA powers options will give you more control over where your target ends up however.

 

 

 

This is how I've done it in my Fantasy HERO campaigns.  Most recently for a Witcher-type Aard blast.

 

I like using Blast for this effect as it makes the distance of the knockback less predictable.

[dsatow]

I like the Leaping UAA, but this doesn't normally make the target fall on their butts.  Does this matter in game play or is the movement enough of a problem to players?

[pbemguy]

On 4/1/2020 at 12:07 PM, Tom Cowan said:

Add TK to the list of ways to do it.  TK only to toss the target...  -1 1/2?

This is how I would do it. 

[Tech]

Hero Games created some time ago a book on Gadgets. Can't find the book at the moment but it went something like this: repulsor cannon was a blast, does no body, x2 knockback (in 6th ed rules). That's what I go with.

[Doc Democracy]

 

On 4/1/2020 at 7:15 AM, MechaniCat said:

I'm looking to make a power that would knock an opponent away but not do damage. A strong push more or less.

 

The only thing I can really think of would be an HA or HKA with "No Stun", "Body damage only for Knockback", and probably "Penetrating" or "Armor Piercing" for consistency.;

That seems clunky though? So I thought I'd ask the forums just in case there's something I overlooked. Also I'm unsure of what values the above would have.

 

How committed are you to no damage?  Obviously the initial attack will do no damage but if the person is knocked back into a wall.  Would that do damage?  There is also the question of whether you want people knocked back to be on their feet or have the potential of ending up prone?

[Brian Stanfield]

How about Teleport, Usable On Others, Must pass through intervening space? There is a "Position Shift" adder for Teleport, but it's really for getting up after a fall, etc., but it seems like maybe you can work with this as well to "shift" someone one hex away.

 

Just another idea. 

[theinfn8]

Not to resurrect an oldish thread but I didn't see anyone mention this option. For completeness sake and because I prefer KISS, what about the Shove maneuver (6e2 pg 79) or Martial Shove (MA pg 6)? What you're describing is exactly what it's for. A hard shove/push to move someone and not cause damage.

 

If you need more KB, just buy some STR limited for "Only for Shove".

[Duke Bushido]

On 4/1/2020 at 3:08 PM, dsatow said:

I like the Leaping UAA, but this doesn't normally make the target fall on their butts.  Does this matter in game play or is the movement enough of a problem to players?

Spend 4 points for the element "target falls." 

 

If Haymaker can be appropriated to apply to things that aren't punches, then everything should available for appropriation, too. 

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Spend 4 points for the element "target falls." 

 

If Haymaker can be appropriated to apply to things that aren't punches, then everything should available for appropriation, too. 

Interesting point! Since Shove is now a standard maneuver he could Haymaker it. Btw Target Falls is only +1 point as an element. Let’s not overcharge shall we? 😉 

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Btw Target Falls is only +1 point as an element. Let’s not overcharge shall we? 😉 

 

 

 

 

Agreed!

 

Hey-- I won't even _pretend_ I read the 6e Martial Arts book.  I own it, because I wanted to support HERO, and whatever I can do to ensure it continues on just one more day, etc, etc, -- but even when I bought it knew I'd never actually read it.  I'm going on memories of Aaron Alston's original Ninja HERO, where it seemed like damned near everything cost 4 pts--- which makes sense:  that was the cost of the Skill Level that would let you do whatever thing he was martial naming it for that particular maneuver.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well Duke if you don’t mind martial arts built as a Multipower or as Powers in general, there are ways to do that in HSMA (and in the older books too). Also even in the original NH, the CSL martial art  is suggested as an option. ( You weren’t suppose to take the Style Disadvantage if you did.)

[Duke Bushido]

On May 21, 2020 at 10:09 PM, theinfn8 said:

Not to resurrect an oldish thread but I didn't see anyone mention this option. For completeness sake and because I prefer KISS, what about the Shove maneuver (6e2 pg 79) or Martial Shove (MA pg 6)? What you're describing is exactly what it's for. A hard shove/push to move someone and not cause damage.

 

If you need more KB, just buy some STR limited for "Only for Shove".

 

I can't speak for everyone here, but in truth, I have seen _lots_ of variations of this idea, from Fantasy to "Don't-call-it-a-jedi-or-Lucas-will-sue-me."  Traditionally, they are all built with Telekinesis, Area of Effect, only to push away from caster/jedi/psionicist/superhero.

 

I don't know if that helps, but there it is.

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Well Duke if you don’t mind martial arts built as a Multipower or as Powers in general, there are ways to do that in HSMA (and in the older books too). Also even in the original NH, the CSL martial art  is suggested as an option. ( You weren’t suppose to take the Style Disadvantage if you did.)

 

 

If you recall from our long and long-dead disagreement in the past, Skill Levels is _exactly_ how I do martial arts:  you buy a few, assign them where you want when you do a thing (OCV, DCV, Damage, effects (I'll let you burn a level to assure you knock a target over, even if you didn't do knock back:  It's a Skill Level, after all, and I take it as you being skilled enough in hand-to-hand to shove / strike in such a way as to unbalance your opponent), then yell "hi-YAH!"  

 

Martial Arts. Easy peasy.  Lemon squeezy.

 

 

 

 

[theinfn8]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

If you recall from our long and long-dead disagreement in the past...

 

 

It was certainly not my intent to drag up old arguments as well

Just figured it would be useful for anyone who might do a search on the forum to have as many options as possible in one place.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, theinfn8 said:

 

It was certainly not my intent to drag up old arguments as well

Just figured it would be useful for anyone who might do a search on the forum to have as many options as possible in one place.

No worries. You brought up a good point.

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

I can't speak for everyone here, but in truth, I have seen _lots_ of variations of this idea, from Fantasy to "Don't-call-it-a-jedi-or-Lucas-will-sue-me."  Traditionally, they are all built with Telekinesis, Area of Effect, only to push away from caster/jedi/psionicist/superhero.

 

I don't know if that helps, but there it is.

 

 

 

 

 

If you recall from our long and long-dead disagreement in the past, Skill Levels is _exactly_ how I do martial arts:  you buy a few, assign them where you want when you do a thing (OCV, DCV, Damage, effects (I'll let you burn a level to assure you knock a target over, even if you didn't do knock back:  It's a Skill Level, after all, and I take it as you being skilled enough in hand-to-hand to shove / strike in such a way as to unbalance your opponent), then yell "hi-YAH!"  

 

Martial Arts. Easy peasy.  Lemon squeezy.

 

 

 

 

Yes and that works until you try use it to replicate certain maneuvers. No matter how many CSLs you have they cannot grant you a killing attack nor certain NND attacks. (You can choke someone with a regular Grab maneuver however).  Now In 2nd edition wasn’t the thought was Powers are Powers and Skills are Skills? At least even coming into 4th ed, it seem like there is a big distinction between the two. Here with the Martial Art System then it allows you to have access to some “Powers” like killing attack as a skill.

[Duke Bushido]

There were lots of thoughts in 2e; that hasn't changed at all.  Thoughts like characteristics and skills can be powers, powers can be skills, etc. 

 

There have been like three _major_ changes since day one have been figured characteristics, the thing with growth, and points inflation. 

 

Other than that, it's been packaging.  Well, and the big change from "its legal until the rules say no" to "its o ly legal if the rules say yes.". That crept in with every new book, all the way back to escape from Stronghold introducing the idea that walls had Def.

 

The only thing really new with anything in this game system is when you became comfortable doing whatever it is you wanted to do.   

 

 

[dsatow]

23 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Spend 4 points for the element "target falls." 

 

If Haymaker can be appropriated to apply to things that aren't punches, then everything should available for appropriation, too. 

 

That doesn't apply to what I was noting which was to use Leaping Usable against another as effectively a type of throw.  When using the leaping power to represent being thrown back, Leaping normally leaves the user standing at the end.  So I was asking if this mattered to the person who was designing this version of the power.

 

Using martial arts is fine and I'd prefer this, but some people want to make sure that what they do isn't stopped by a high breakfall roll or some such.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

12 hours ago, theinfn8 said:

 

It was certainly not my intent to drag up old arguments 

 

 

It's okay; I have no intention of arguing about it again. I said my piece then, and nothing has changed.  There's no reason to restate it, because it just brings it all back up again, and it's a pointless argument: everyone picks what works best for them and uses it.  Proselytizing about the one true way to do a thing, particularly in this system, is just silly and part of the reason I don't hang out here like I did. 

 

Sharing ideas is great; arguing not so much. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

No worries. You brought up a good point.

 

Indeed you did!