JohnnyR

I'm currently running a Galactic Champions game, so our space battles also include flying spandex people punching spaceships. We mostly use standard Hero vehicle combat (6ed), but I wanted to use a vector-based movement system with at least a passing resemblance to how objects actually move in zero G instead of looking like the usual WWII dogfight. (Basic concept swiped from the minis game Full Thrust.) We've only had one space combat so far, but it worked really well: the players found it easy to understand after just a couple moves, it played quickly, and really gave the battle a unique feel.
 
No hexes: freeform movement measured using rulers or measuring tapes. The exact scale is handwaved, but 1 “movement unit” = 1cm on the map. (You could use 1m = 1” but you’ll need a big playing space!)

We ignored the Z axis and just did everything in 2D. In my experience/opinion, trying to simulate 3D on the tabletop is way more trouble than it's worth.
 
A ship’s Flight is how fast it can accelerate; there is no maximum velocity. (I mean theoretically there is, but I’m pretty sure you’ll run out of table long before you approach 1 C!) Ships can move NCM if they want, with the usual effects on CV.
 
For each ship you need to keep track of three things:
- FACING is the direction the ship is pointing – indicated by the miniature’s facing
- COURSE is the direction the ship is moving, which may not be the same as its facing – indicated by arrow on a disk or a counter
- VELOCITY is how fast the ship is currently moving – we tracked velocity using 2d10s (ie a velocity of 24 is reflected with a 2 on one die and a 4 on another)
 
Ships move and act on their Phases as normal. Movement is a 4-step process:
- The ship drifts in the direction of its current Course for its current Velocity in cm. Leave the Course arrow in place to mark the ship’s starting position.
- From its drift location, the ship can then move normally up to its full Flight move in cm. There is no Turn Mode, and rotation is “free” so basically they can move wherever they want up to their full movement. The new Facing is in line from the drift point to its final location, to reflect the direction the ship was applying thrust.
- Measure the distance from the starting position (the arrow) to the final location (the mini); the distance in cm is the new Velocity.
- The new Course is in line from the starting location to the final location; move the course arrow up to the final location.
 
Combat is handled normally after movement. For simplicity, I let ships & character do a full move and attack at one additional range band (ie -2 OCV).

Movement Example: A ship with 24m of Flight is currently moving towards the right, which we’ll call 3 o’clock; its current Facing and Course are the same and its current Velocity is 10. The ship wants to accelerate. First the ship’s mini drifts 10cm towards 3 o’clock, and the arrow is left in place. The ship then moves normally, and decides to move 24cm straight ahead. The distance from start to finish is 34cm, so that is the ship’s new Velocity. Its Facing and Course are unchanged. Move the arrow counter up to the final location. Note that for linear examples like this you could’ve just added 10+24 and moved the ship forward 34cm.
 
The next Phase I took pictures! Ship’s Course and Facing are both still towards 3 o'clock, Velocity 34. (The arrow is on the disk under the ship counter, but you don’t need to see it until you move anyway.)

 
Say the ship wants to turn to port/left. First, the mini drifts 34cm to 3 o'clock, leaving the arrow in place.

 
From there the ship moves its full 24cm to 12 o'clock. The ship’s facing is now towards 12 because it was applying thrust in that direction.
 

 
Measure the distance between the starting and end locations, which comes out to around 42cm – that’s the ship’s new Velocity. The angle from start location to finish is the new Course; move the arrow up. (I left the arrow on top so you could see it.) Looking at this pic it looks like the ship counter got bumped out of alignment, but it should still be facing straight towards 12 o'clock.

 
On it’s next Phase say the ship wants to stop. First the mini drifts 42cm along its current course (call it 2 o'clock). Then the ship moves 42cm (using NCM) back towards 8 o'clock, ending up where it started. Velocity is 0; new facing is towards 8 o'clock, and the Heading counter is removed (or ignored).
 
 

Who does? This isn't the NBA. 🙄

d
probably, but that would only apply if the grenade is moving past the character, not toward them.  Frankly, the size DCV is excessive in my mind as well (its not that hard to hit a ball someone tosses at you), but 8 (to be precise, 9 as you note) is what the rules say. I'd say 4.  Nobody is burning one of these things across the plate at 100 mph, you cannot throw a grenade as hard as Nolan Ryan throws a baseball, even if you had that kid of arm.

The velocity DCV is probably 3.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M67_grenade
 
Can be thrown 30-35 meters with a 4-5 second travel time (so possibly Extra Segment).  That's getting you into the 100 meter per turn range.
 
The size-based DCV...the length is 9 cm.  By RAW, 4 levels would be 1/16th size.  I like 3 point "half levels"...they're actually easy to work with, and the benefits of Shrinking are all in increments of 2, so using "half levels" is quite easy.  So I'd use +9 DCV from size.  Net DCV, 12.
 
Another consideration...HOW is it being deflected?  The M67 is a timed fuse...but how much is left?  Would "swatting" it trigger the last bit?  That, I don't know.  There'll be an indeterminate amount of time left before the fuse runs out in any case, and in the general case where Agile Hero is near the intended point of impact...it won't be very long.  Worse...the M68 version is an impact fuse.  Hitting it hard enough to swat it back would be more of an impact than striking a surface...so it'll go BOOM.  
 
So, the earlier you can intercept it, the better, but it won't be easy or necessarily safe.

I tend to run Heroic groups more than supers, so this one has actually come up several times over the years.
 
What are the official rules on this?
 
I don't know.
 
What is the best way to resolve this?
 
I dont know that, either.
 
What did we do in the past that was reasonable enough in the moment that we just stuck with it from then on?
 
We caught it.
 
A brief explanation:
 
It was decided that a character should not have to be a ninja to have a chance at this, nor should he have to buy a special ability to do it (deflection, reflection, etc).   Why would we decide such a thing?  Because outside of supers, this is a really odd and dangerous thing to practice as far as building skills goes, at least outside of baseball.
 
So we started looking at various maneuvers (everyman maneuvers, figuring catching /blocking / cracking with a bat were not particularly "martial") and eventually decided that Block was the best basis as it was an offensive maneuver ("throw grenade") versus an offensive maneuver ("attack grenade").
 
The grenades "CV" is calculated from its base movement- that is, determine how many hexes it will travels in this segment and use any appropriate DCV modifier a character moving at that speed might receive.   Add in any DCV modifiers a character would recieve for Shrinking to the size most equal to the grenade. 
 
Finally, if the throwing character has any special relevant throwing skills like "baseball pitcher" or something to suggest he has a specific talent at throwing something yet making it challenging to intercept, determine a way to add that as well.  (Typically, I just add relevant skill level: "+2 with throwing grenades," for example, to the CV.  Actual skills-- professional Baseball Pitcher, maybe-- then the player rolls the skill and the amount by which he makes the roll is applied).  This is the CV of the grenade-- the CV against which the deflecting character with his Block maneuver, and not against that of the CV of the throwing character.
 
 
Sounds complex,  but it is pretty simple in practice.  As with the person throwing the grenade, the person attempting to deflect the grenade is allowed relevant skills and skill levels.
 
The blocking character must specify (and pay END for) the amount of STR he wishes to put into his attempt.
 
 
If the Block is successful, then the grenade is deflected from this point of contact. Roll a d3 to determine if the grenade veers left, right, or up-and-over.  The grenade will travel a distance equal to that of having been thrown by 1/2 of the deflecting character's declared STR.
 
If the deflecting character makes his roll by half the target number, roll a d6 for direction (with one result being "up and over" the target hex and the people in it) and the grenade travels a distance equal to the full declared STR throwing distance of the deflecting character.
 
If he makes his roll by 1/4, he may select the 3-hex_face arc he wishes to deflect into, and roll a d3 to setermine the line of travel.  The full declared STR determines the travel distance.
 
If he rolls a 3, the grenade is stamped "return to sender," provided that this target is in range of his declared STR.  Otherwise, it travels as far back towards the throwing character as the declared STR will allow.
 
 
"But this seems to make it so difficult..."
 
Well, first, that stands up to real-world observation.  Honestly, this results in 1 in 200-something grenades being sent back to the user _at a minimum_.  I feel certain that if this ratio was attained real-world, people would just stop using grenades, so it seems dramtically generous.
 
Second, this is an everyman way to do it.  Deflecrion and Reflection are actual game elements that can be purchased if one wishes an easier way to do these things.
 
 
 

Please, no. That's being done right now, to scare people into running from a fictional world, straight into the arms of an even worse reality.
 
And I can't say more about that outside of the Politics thread. 🤐

What is it with people only wanting to run awful systems? 
 
Ah.  😐

I want to be clear about presenting this Fate Points idea--I think it could really work and improve the game. I re-offered it as a mental exercise because I still wanted to utilize the brain power of those turned off by the idea itself.
 
I am honestly, as a player, closest to Doc Democracy and Scott Ruggels and Duke Bushido. I have blown my rolls many times. I have even had superhero PC's die from a bad roll--when I first started gaming in the 80s--but as my group got a handle on the spirit of Champions, that kind of thing never happened.
 
I am very much a "let the chips fall where they may" type person in Champions, as a player. My current quest for this new "xp as Fate Points" comes from playing a lot of Champions games online. I find this group of new players really wants more narrative control as compared to players who have grown into the system. I don't think that's a bad thing or a game breaker. So this is a compromise that might allow for more new players to join in.
 
This has been my experience and I'm offering up this anecdotal data for analysis and attack.
 
GMing is an art. If you have someone new to Champions, a new GM, they don't often GM it the way I would. You will usually get a very literal "the roll is the roll" style of GMing. So a situation like the example I keep referring to with Christopher happens. And what is the solution? We all see that the GM should step in and make it more narratively effective, or else go with "the roll is the roll": i.e., the hero fails and we move along and work towards a win later in the story instead of the cool moment that would have tied it up nicely. But the other kind of player, they want the scene settled with the nice, immediate resolution. You're still building trust at this point. So, since I don't have any Hero gamers in my area and I play online, I have to find a way to work with the players that I pull together. 
 
So I'm GMing and often everyone wants the rolls on the table for everyone to see. Some of us here do it that way. When I GMed a lot of tabletop I kept the rolls hidden 95% of the time and rolled sometimes in front of the group and went with "the roll is the roll" when it was a visible roll. But, when I play with the online players, if I do a "roll is the roll" and their character fails...sometimes they just kind of quietly quit the game. Not because they are sulking, but because we've put all this work into the game (building a Champions character for the first time!) and we reach this critical moment and they are constantly evaluating whether the game is worth their time investment. So a failure early on is a downer and it's read as a "so this is how the game is going to be" moment.
 
So I thought about a way that could prevent that icky moment from discouraging new players. 
 
If I was playing with my old group, we would have giggled the heck out of this idea. But I really like the fresh players who turn up for my games. I want them to stay. They often make decisions and comments I would never have considered. They are hilarious. They are brave. They get the genre. But we are not a group of people who sit at a table in the real world and have a social contract with one another. I used to go to the same school as all of the players in my original group. Champions was maybe 15% of what we did together. That's a different situation, is what I'm saying.
 
People wonder why it's challenging to attract new players to Hero, why everyone doesn't embrace Champions as the One True System. (It really is. I love it to death.) But many of us adherents started with these groups where we were socially attached, socially obligated. I'm currently playing in games where this is the first exposure to the Hero system for half or more of the players, and I am finding it wanting in this exact way.
 
I'm not at all annoyed or bitter when I write all of this. (In fact, I may not even be right.) As always, bouncing an idea off you folks has led me to a moment of better understanding, I think. If I asked this question anywhere else, I wouldn't have figured out anything.
 
PS: The xp as Fate, that's just because I really don't worry that much about xp as a player anymore. A good GM can have a freshly-made character and one with 100 points of xp operate together seamlessly. However, most people do care about xp and character advancement. I realize I am in the tiny minority on that. I think that the players I am trying to keep wouldn't like xp as Fate, because they do want character advancement. So I'm seeing Doc's idea as probably what I will go with:
 

Personally, I have never liked systems like this, as a player having to expend long term development for short term gain has always felt like I was cheated.
 
I prefer not allowing xp to be used as xp until they have been used as a boost.  So every xp you earn has the potential to give a short term boost and then to be used to buy powers.
 
Howeve, if you wanted to do this, you could consider awarding Heroic Action Points instead of XP, they would be one use and you could limit them in other ways to get the value to one HAP per xp.  When a HAP is used it becomes an XP, only to be used for character development.
 
As a player, I would not then feel cheated, having to burn my future advancement just to hit an opponent.
 
Doc

If you ever get attacked by a gang of clowns, go for the juggler.

This will be a problem with a large chunk of players out there.  In most on the non-Hero games with "clerics", the player is free to do what they want with their spells/powers and the whole staying the good graces of the deity is just lip service.  Even Paladins frequently are played murder-hobo.
 
But in Hero a -2 indicates a pretty serious level of interference.   I can just hear the moaning and wailing about player agency and GM railroading.....aaaaaaarrrrggggghhhhh
 

There is a story in the Bible, 1 Kings 18, about Elijah challenging the priests of Baal (call on your god to light the wood on fire with your sacrifice and I will do the same).  At 1 Kings 18:27 Elijah starts to taunt the priest of Baal.  In some translations (or maybe it is in the Hebrew) Elijah tells them to yell louder because maybe Baal is in the bathroom.

Midkemia Press did a handful of them back in the 80s.
 
They're still available in PDF through the above link.
 
I particularly suggest looking at Towns of the Outlands, which is free!

The correct answer is a 0 END AOE Armor Piercing Cumulative Major Transform.

As Christougher said.  Playing Hero is easy.  In fact it is FAR more easy than many of the so called easier RPG's are. 
 
If.
 
And this is a big IF.
 
The GM builds everything for the players, strips all the build annotation from the character sheet. 
 
For example, the Wizard only needs know that the Flame Strike does X damage and costs X end (or mana, or what have you) and uses X skill to hit (if any). 
Ditch, hide, burn at the stake anything even resembling build annotation. 
Ditch, hide, burn at the stake any hint of characteristic build costs.
A un-sanitized Hero character sheet has sent more prospective players running screaming from the gaming table than than have ever tried to play it.
 
I've run Hero at cons before and had a difficult time getting players until I stripped the annotation from the sheets.
The sheet should have everything spelled out in plain language. 
I had a laminated playsheet with all the common things on it.
If the character sheet didn't fit on one side of a 8x11 page NOT using micro sized print, then streamline and remove things until is does.
Same with the play sheet. 
You don't have to use fifty zillion rule options for the intro. 
 
But the thing hero has than virtually no other game has is when a player says "that was OK, but I wish the rules let you X", you can actually say "It can, I just made this intro simple".   You shouldn't be surprised how many times that will make a new player a Hero convert. 
 
If you are borrowing another systems starter kit to base the intro on, I'd recommend the D&D one or the Pathfinder one.  I refer to both of them as "Generic Fantasy Settings" because file off the place names and they are practically the same setting.  And 9 out of 10 people can immediately understand that setting enough to play and what their PC's role is.  Leave generic fantasy and you will also need to explain setting and PC roles.

Fortunately there are two new bundles at Bundle of Holding that for not much money can get you an amazing start with 6e!
 
https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Hero6E
 
https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Champions6E
 

I want four fried chickens... and a Coke.

Given that reality, I give Jason props for looking for inexpensive but innovative ways to build momentum for the Hero brand: Hall of Champions, Champions Now, Character Creation Cards, PDFing older materials... he definitely hasn't been sitting on his hands.

So....they may be thinking they were too quick to pull the trigger on Gunn?
 
Lucius Alexander
 
The palindromedary says that ideally one should be quite sure before firing any Gunn

This is way off topic, but briefly as I can:
 
The first amendment is the constitutional requirement by the people that the federal government protect and not attack free expression insofar as it does not materially damage other rights.
 
Freedom of expression ("speech," the press, assembly etc) is an innate, God-given, inalienable right all human beings share simply by being human.  We all have the right to freedom of expression merely by being human, although that right's expression can be suppressed (you can be silenced, you just still have the right to speech).
 
As a society, we agree to an informal and unwritten contract: we will give up certain non-critical freedoms in order to gain greater safety and expression of our overall rights.  I have the right to express myself however I wish even if it is lying and damaging to people, but we have agreed that it is illegal to slander or libel someone.  I have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater (as the saying goes) but have agreed that it ought to be illegal to create chaos and riot that may harm people or businesses.
 
Gunn has the right to say whatever he wants, but we have agreed that private businesses may choose to punish someone for their expression if they deem it too damaging to their business or public image.  Whether this is a proper use of that power or not, is up to some debate.  Youtube has the power to not carry Alex Jones' content if they choose to, because it is their business and their money to do with as they wish, even though Jones has the right to say what he chooses.  Businesses are private organizations who are spending their money to hire and promote people: its their money to do with what they choose.
 
The thing we all have to try to cling to is the greatest amount of liberty with the least amount of censorship.  Putting up with things we don't care for and don't want to hear is the entire point of freedom of speech; if all we tolerate is things we want to hear, then we've abandoned the entire concept of liberty.
 
As I've stated before, I do not like people being fired for what they say, I think that's a bad precedent and what someone says on their own time in their own capacity, not representing the business directly, is their own affair.  I wouldn't want a boss to fire me for some off-color joke I've made in the past, with my friends.
 
Putting a gigantic monkey wrench into this whole discussion is how private speech is, and to what degree you represent your employer on social media.  It seems completely public and a high-profile person has always had to be more careful than ordinary citizens.  A senator or governor can't get away with stuff which you or I can on a regular basis.  People who are famously part of a business are less free to say things without necessarily impacting the business they work for (say, the girl who plays Wendy for the commercials).
 
All of this stuff has to be taken into consideration, its not as simple as we do/do not have free speech.

The Black Widow movie comes out in a month or two, but it's called Red Sparrow and stars Jennifer Lawrence.

How did you come up with your 'handle' (forum name)? ​Name and middle initial. I know, creative.
What was the first tabletop RPG you played? Champions! the BBB
What was the first tabletop RPG you GMed? Champions
What are you currently playing/GMing? On hiatus from a group with System Attention-Deficit Disorder (Savage Worlds, Numenera, Dnd, Fantasy Craft, Shadow of the Demon Lord). A lot of false starts.
When did you start to play Hero? 1990 ish. Think I ordered it from an American Entertainment catalog.

How did you come up with your 'handle' (forum name)? ​Name and middle initial. I know, creative.
What was the first tabletop RPG you played? Champions! the BBB
What was the first tabletop RPG you GMed? Champions
What are you currently playing/GMing? On hiatus from a group with System Attention-Deficit Disorder (Savage Worlds, Numenera, Dnd, Fantasy Craft, Shadow of the Demon Lord). A lot of false starts.
When did you start to play Hero? 1990 ish. Think I ordered it from an American Entertainment catalog.

How did you come up with your 'handle' (forum name)? ​Name and middle initial. I know, creative.
What was the first tabletop RPG you played? Champions! the BBB
What was the first tabletop RPG you GMed? Champions
What are you currently playing/GMing? On hiatus from a group with System Attention-Deficit Disorder (Savage Worlds, Numenera, Dnd, Fantasy Craft, Shadow of the Demon Lord). A lot of false starts.
When did you start to play Hero? 1990 ish. Think I ordered it from an American Entertainment catalog.