Turakian Age Cities Poll -- What Would You Most Like Steve To Consider Working On?

[Steve Long]

I've been reading a long thread about the Turakian Age setting recently, which naturally has inspired me to think about the setting and ways to add to it -- specifically, the possibility of a city book, since I don't think I've written a detailed Fantasy city book. So I thought I'd find out which cities would most interest y'all, and why. I make no promises, but knowing what y'all suggest will help me guide my imagination.

 

My own personal most-likely candidates would include Aarn, Eltirian, Talarshand, Tatha Gorel, Tor Vilos, and Trisadion, though any of them would be interesting to work on.

[archer]

IMHO, any place which is run by a single being which players would be accustomed to seeing as targets in a typical fantasy game would be problematic (lich, dragon, vampire). Too many players seem to have the attitude of "it wouldn't be there if I weren't intended to kill it".

 

Then an aspiring GM is going to be faced with 

1) Talking the players out of trying anytime they're near the city.

2) Letting the players try and let them get killed.

3) Letting the players succeed and the GM not having the usable neat setting to use.

 

I don't think any of those options will make the aspiring GM be satisfied with your product.

 

 

I'm also not personally fond of the city of assassins. The first time the PC's get crossways with the assassins, either the assassins are competent and kill the PC's...or the assassins are incompetent and the GM has to come up with excuses of why a bottomless pool of professional assassins can't manage to kill off a party of random adventurers (who probably are not behaving in such a way as to make themselves difficult targets for assassins). Either isn't likely to make the GM happy with his purchase.

 

2 cents

[Derek Hiemforth]

25 minutes ago, archer said:

IMHO, any place which is run by a single being which players would be accustomed to seeing as targets in a typical fantasy game would be problematic (lich, dragon, vampire). Too many players seem to have the attitude of "it wouldn't be there if I weren't intended to kill it".

 

I think this is a great point, and I agree.  However, I think there's also danger in going too much the other way, where things seem likely to proceed mostly unchanged regardless of what the PCs do.  That sounds like it could be an issue with some of these as well, such as Eltirian or Tor Vilos.

Ultimately, I voted for Kurum-Sathiri, both because I think the idea of a city ruled by a meritocratic magocracy sounds interesting, and because I think it avoids either of those issues.  There's no single "monster" to bump off and seize the crown, but there is a very cutthroat--almost Klingon--hierarchy a PC could gradually ascend.  Loading up for one lucky go against the top dog wouldn't be a good strategy even if you could pull it off, because even if you got lucky, then you'd just have to defend your crown against the next challenger.  So you couldn't really try to take over until you were truly powerful enough to hold it -- a potentially-interesting long-term campaign goal (or even campaign-ending goal).

 

But in the meantime, it seems like it could easily lend itself to many interesting stories.  Plus, you'd get to write a lot about the doings and maneuverings of the Sithians, which is just inherently bad-ass.   

[Lord Liaden]

Really nice to hear your fantasy creative juices are flowing again, Steve. (Wait, that sounds wrong...)

 

Of the choices specified in your poll, for straight-up big-city adventure I would favor Tavrosel, for the reasons I laid out on the aforementioned thread. But I also expended several posts detailing the adventure potential of the Shaanda River valley. Ishthac and its neighboring cities are relatively small, but collectively there's a lot you could do with them; and the region carries plenty of potential for future expansions. Besides, IME it's more comfortable for PCs starting their careers to have a smaller place as their home base, and work up to a major urban sojourn.

 

But of course you would write this, so it should be what excites you. That's how we get the best product.

[Norm]

Thanks Steve!    Now I am going to have to go back and read the Turakian Age thread.  Sheesh.   Maybe even pull out the book or bring up the PDF and start going through it again.   

 

Been playing DND 5E lately because of the ease of support in Roll20 and Character Sheet integration.   Anything to get me coming back to some HERO properties is welcome.

 

Voted Tavrosel also.  Probably for the wrong reasons. 

 

First the right reason....  From the description it would seem like a good place for a party to be from with different backgrounds and can have either land or sea beginning adventures.   Aarn would probably be the most sensible choice for something like that.

 

Now the probably wrong reasons....   Behind the scenes, not sure if it would easier or harder for Steve to write something with a “melange of cultures and religions”.  The place can hopefully be a starting point on Steve working on a process for other towns/areas/countries.  Other small city books can have the details of the cultures and religions.  After the process is good, then try Aarn as it will (hopefully) be bigger than the others.

 

Yes, I know that I am putting the cart before the horse.  I have been spending all of my money lately on the various small or Zine Quest Kickstarter over the past month or so.   Plan on using them for tools, tables, and/or ideas.  Crap... looked back in email and realize it is 10 projects over the past month and a half.  $5-$10 a project....  Anyway, I need to go look through the Hero Store and grab things from Fantasy and Sci-Fi sections that has come out in the past 9 months.  I usually grab all of the fantasy item collections that Greg Elkins creates.

 

Anyway, I rarely post....  and then I ramble.

 

If this is for the Hero Store (like Champions International) or a Patreon (could have voting on the next item like Inkwell Ideas does it).  I am in.  Let me throw money at it.

 

Good luck Steve.   I hope that this is a type of project you can get behind and do.  Especially since this is for Fantasy Hero (Turakian Age/Ambrethel).

[Spence]

A smaller city in Vestria.  Large enough to have resources a party of adventurers need, but not large enough to rival 20th century metropolises.  The prevalence of those in fantasy RPG's is a real turn off.

 

A smaller city that new players can be introduced to without requiring them to expend more effort to read the background material than some do getting a degree. 

Enough info and locations (inn's, stores, weaponsmiths, magic related shops, etc.) to be helpful, but light on politics and the nobility.  It is far easier to build intrigue and factions from scratch than it is to digest pre-existing nobility, family lines and plots.  To name the influential houses is one thing, but adding all the past and ongoing feuds and bickering is an obstacle rather than an aid. Too much information is actually worse than not enough. 

 

Maps.   MAPS.   A real map of the city.  If the Inn is named it the book then include a usable map.  No map, no named inn.  Maps.   MAPS.   A real map of the city.   This will keep the locations to something useful, rather than just another block of text that get s ignored.

 

Somewhere with the frontier feel and room to actually explore in the surrounding region.

 

A city that a beginning group can actually base out of and have a plausible level of influence.

 

[Lord Liaden]

50 minutes ago, Spence said:

A smaller city in Vestria.  Large enough to have resources a party of adventurers need, but not large enough to rival 20th century metropolises.  The prevalence of those in fantasy RPG's is a real turn off.

 

A smaller city that new players can be introduced to without requiring them to expend more effort to read the background material than some do getting a degree. 

Enough info and locations (inn's, stores, weaponsmiths, magic related shops, etc.) to be helpful, but light on politics and the nobility.  It is far easier to build intrigue and factions from scratch than it is to digest pre-existing nobility, family lines and plots.  To name the influential houses is one thing, but adding all the past and ongoing feuds and bickering is an obstacle rather than an aid. Too much information is actually worse than not enough. 

 

Maps.   MAPS.   A real map of the city.  If the Inn is named it the book then include a usable map.  No map, no named inn.  Maps.   MAPS.   A real map of the city.   This will keep the locations to something useful, rather than just another block of text that get s ignored.

 

Somewhere with the frontier feel and room to actually explore in the surrounding region.

 

A city that a beginning group can actually base out of and have a plausible level of influence.

 

 

Very much my line of thinking. Big enough to be interesting, small enough to be manageable. Not so settled that you have to travel far to find wilderness. And of course, easier to map.

 

When I was looking at setting populations for Ambrethel's cities, I researched precedents for real-world pre-industrial urban areas. A very few over the past two millennia had estimates in the 1 million+ range, but I noticed that the latest research has been revising those estimates downward. I also looked at what's been published before for Fantasy Hero. Biggest city in that category was Arindel in the 4E Western Shores setting, at 600,000. Smallest I found was 10,000. That lines up pretty well with real-world precedents for urban population range in a medieval world.

 

I keep going back to the Shaanda River. It has four "small" cities named: Blackrond, Garwyn, Ishthac, and Telisarn. Ishthac is supposed to be the largest. If I was designing the area I'd put them in the 10,000 - 20,000 range. I figure each city would exert hegemony over their neighboring smaller settlements. This way, rather than designing one big, detailed city, you'd be dealing with four smaller cities. Each one could be distinctive in culture and government. If you want diversity in urban adventure, just sail up or down the Shaanda.

[drunkonduty]

I'd like to see Halathaloorm. It sounds like something out of the Eternal Champion series.

[Lord Liaden]

Halathaloorm, Trisadion, Dar Enroque... the cities built by magic are probably the most exotic looking.

[C-Note]

My vote is for Aarn.  A 6E Turakian Age setting with the depth of "Ptolus" would get me to spend serious cash and stimulate years of roleplaying.

[DShomshak]

On 3/27/2021 at 3:27 PM, archer said:

IMHO, any place which is run by a single being which players would be accustomed to seeing as targets in a typical fantasy game would be problematic (lich, dragon, vampire). Too many players seem to have the attitude of "it wouldn't be there if I weren't intended to kill it".

 

Then an aspiring GM is going to be faced with 

1) Talking the players out of trying anytime they're near the city.

2) Letting the players try and let them get killed.

3) Letting the players succeed and the GM not having the usable neat setting to use.

 

I don't think any of those options will make the aspiring GM be satisfied with your product.

 

All this will take some thinking before I cast a vote -- including the standards by which I choose. But one criterion I think worth considering is "What have I not seen before?" And this makes the three cited cities viable candidates,m because I don't recall a Fantasy setting guide built on the premise that the setting is about to self-destruct. (Maybe Exalted, but only in some senses, and there the button to detonate has already been pushed.)

 

So yeah. Players will want to kill the dragon, lich, or vampire lord. Make it hard -- the Big Guy wouldn't still be in charge if it were easy. Give fair warning that it's hard, such as background about the previous assassination attempts that failed, and the horrible death meted out to the would-be assassins. But make it possible. Then build the setting around what happens when the Big Guy is gone. Do the players think their PCs are just going to take over HAHAHA, no. They've just started a civil war. I heard one Pathfinder module described as Fantasy F***ing Vietnam. This is Fantasy Beirut, or Fantasy Post-Saddam Baghdad. It would also give Steve a chance to apply his Dark Champions chops, making him peculiarly well suited to design such a setting. (I certainly couldn't.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

Aarn started off slow in the poll, but it's picked up some steam. Before the Hero Games downsizing, a book for Aarn was on the publication schedule, and Steve indicated he was eager to write it. He probably has notes for it already.

[Lord Liaden]

13 hours ago, DShomshak said:

All this will take some thinking before I cast a vote -- including the standards by which I choose. But one criterion I think worth considering is "What have I not seen before?" And this makes the three cited cities viable candidates,m because I don't recall a Fantasy setting guide built on the premise that the setting is about to self-destruct. (Maybe Exalted, but only in some senses, and there the button to detonate has already been pushed.)

 

So yeah. Players will want to kill the dragon, lich, or vampire lord. Make it hard -- the Big Guy wouldn't still be in charge if it were easy. Give fair warning that it's hard, such as background about the previous assassination attempts that failed, and the horrible death meted out to the would-be assassins. But make it possible. Then build the setting around what happens when the Big Guy is gone. Do the players think their PCs are just going to take over HAHAHA, no. They've just started a civil war. I heard one Pathfinder module described as Fantasy F***ing Vietnam. This is Fantasy Beirut, or Fantasy Post-Saddam Baghdad. It would also give Steve a chance to apply his Dark Champions chops, making him peculiarly well suited to design such a setting. (I certainly couldn't.)

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Well, by those criteria, I think your optimum vote would be Orasamn. The disadvantage to choosing Tatha Gorel, the city ruled by a dragon, is that Scauromdrax the Magnificent (that's actually what he's called) has over nearly three centuries built up such a reputation as a wise and just ruler, the rulers of other states sometimes seek his advice. Anyone who kills him will probably carry a stain of infamy not just among the Gorelians, but any other law-abiding land they visit. Gorgashtar would be almost the opposite problem, because the lich Varakes isn't the Big Guy -- he's one of the chief lieutenants of the Biggest Guy, Kal-Turak. There will be no resultant chaos because the Ravager of Men will appoint someone else to govern Gorgashtar, but the PCs will now be prominently on the radar of the greatest evil in all Ambrethel.

 

Sargath, the Vampire King of Dragosani, is a usurper who murdered all the former royal family, and killed or "turned" everyone else who opposed him. His capital, Orasamn, has for nearly a century lived under the same kind of fear as the villagers in Transylvania in the novel Dracula. Killing Sargath would not solve the problems for the Dragosa, because it would leave no obvious successor, save among the remaining nobles who are vampires themselves and would probably fight for the throne.

[Steve Long]

12 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Killing Sargath would not solve the problems for the Dragosa, because it would leave no obvious successor, save among the remaining nobles who are vampires themselves and would probably fight for the throne.

 

Bat fight!

 

(Sorry, been watching too much What We Do In The Shadows lately. )

[drunkonduty]

There is no such thing as too much What We Do in the Shadows.

[Lord Liaden]

Now that I think of it, the kind of post-chaos scenario Dean talks about could play out most interestingly in the kingdom of Khrisulia in Northern Mitharia. That land has been ruled for almost a millennium by the wizard-king Ansgar, called "Ansgar the Twice-Lived" because, after his magically-prolonged life came to an end, he reanimated himself as a lich. Unlike other liches Ansgar is as benevolent as he was in life, and has governed justly and capably. However, recently his behavior has become erratic: staring blankly and silently at nothing for extended periods, making provocative and threatening statements to neighboring states, lashing out at his subordinates for no reason then apologizing later. His people fear Ansgar is finally succumbing to the evil madness that so often afflicts liches. PCs might very well assume they should take him down before that happens. But when Ansgar died without a named heir it appeared Khrisulia's nobles would war with each other for the crown, and there's no more provision for succession "now."

 

What's really happening is that

Spoiler

Ansgar isn't going mad, he's under mystic psychic assault by Kal-Turak who's trying to corrupt and enthrall him. So far the lich has fended off the attacks, but he knows that without help he'll eventually succumb. PCs who make the effort to understand Ansgar's plight could be key to saving him, but if they go in with swords and spells swinging they'll not only face the political consequences, but also the guilt if they discover the true cause of Ansgar's behavior.

 

[DShomshak]

\So, my vote goes to Eltirian. Here's why.

 

A TA city guide should, first, encourage people who read it to want to see more of the TA setting; and in doing so, it should show what gamers can get from TA that they won't get anywhere else.

 

For me, that rules out Aarn. The Great Trade Metropolis is a familiar Fantasy trope, and the text in TA gives nothing to distinguish Aarn from, say, Waterdeep in Forgotten Realms or Nexus in Exalted. Hey, Waterdeep has a big dungeon underneath it, and an eccentric beholder crime lord! Okay, so those are ideas that seem clever to people who aren't, so such lack is a point in Aarn's favor. But unless Steve can think of a way to make Aarn the best damn Fantasy trade metropolis ever, I don't think it's worth his time.

 

Same goes for a hypothetical Sunless Realms city. Buy Menzoberranzan, cross out some names and write in others. Also, it's not a great way to showcase the wider world.

 

Tavrosel, with its mix of peoples and cultures, has a strong case as "Ambrethel in Miniature," but it's still a bit bland.

 

Vornakkia, though, is the part of Ambrethel that I like most, and it seems the most distinctively itself. Maybe it's my imagination, but I think Steve also had a lot of fun writing it and devising all its quirky cults. The cities are all pretty good, but I think Eltirian would work best. It's got the trade city/adventurer's base utility. It has abundant internal instabilities that can drive plots. It has distinctive religion, which is one thing Turakian Age does better than most Fantasy settings I've seen. And it has a strong external conflict -- political, military and religious -- with Talarshand, which is ready to erupt again.

 

In fact, these two cities are so entangled with each other that I'd even suggest a double citybook, detailing them both.

 

Halathaloorm is very good too. I wouldn't complain if Steve chose it. But Eltirian and Talarshand, locked together by long enmity, is just irresistible to me.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

You certainly make a good case, Dean. And looking at the GM's Vault, if you go deeper into both cities -- literally -- there are even more intriguing possibilities.

 

One other thing that Tavrosel does have going for it is the potential for political and military plots. Several larger nations have influence in Tavrosel's region and would love to acquire it, most imminently and dangerously the Sirrenic Empire and Hargeshite Empire of Vashkhor. Those two great powers have their own ancient enmity, and Tavrosel could become a flashpoint in conflicts between them.

[assault]

11 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

There is no such thing as too much What We Do in the Shadows.

 

And if you run out, there is always Wellington Paranormal.

[Steve Long]

11 hours ago, assault said:

 

And if you run out, there is always Wellington Paranormal.

 

Yes, I just learned that existed the other day. Gonna check it out sometime soon, if possible.

[Steve Long]

17 hours ago, DShomshak said:

\So, my vote goes to Eltirian. Here's why.

 

A TA city guide should, first, encourage people who read it to want to see more of the TA setting; and in doing so, it should show what gamers can get from TA that they won't get anywhere else.

 

For me, that rules out Aarn. The Great Trade Metropolis is a familiar Fantasy trope, and the text in TA gives nothing to distinguish Aarn from, say, Waterdeep in Forgotten Realms or Nexus in Exalted. Hey, Waterdeep has a big dungeon underneath it, and an eccentric beholder crime lord! Okay, so those are ideas that seem clever to people who aren't, so such lack is a point in Aarn's favor. But unless Steve can think of a way to make Aarn the best damn Fantasy trade metropolis ever, I don't think it's worth his time.

 

Same goes for a hypothetical Sunless Realms city. Buy Menzoberranzan, cross out some names and write in others. Also, it's not a great way to showcase the wider world.

 

Tavrosel, with its mix of peoples and cultures, has a strong case as "Ambrethel in Miniature," but it's still a bit bland.

 

Vornakkia, though, is the part of Ambrethel that I like most, and it seems the most distinctively itself. Maybe it's my imagination, but I think Steve also had a lot of fun writing it and devising all its quirky cults. The cities are all pretty good, but I think Eltirian would work best. It's got the trade city/adventurer's base utility. It has abundant internal instabilities that can drive plots. It has distinctive religion, which is one thing Turakian Age does better than most Fantasy settings I've seen. And it has a strong external conflict -- political, military and religious -- with Talarshand, which is ready to erupt again.

 

In fact, these two cities are so entangled with each other that I'd even suggest a double citybook, detailing them both.

 

Halathaloorm is very good too. I wouldn't complain if Steve chose it. But Eltirian and Talarshand, locked together by long enmity, is just irresistible to me.

 

Those are some excellent points, Dean! While I wouldn't mind delving into Aarn at all, I agree that it's similar to a lot of other major Fantasy cities (all of them ultimately inspired by Lankhmar, I imagine ) -- that's part of why it's there, some gamers want/need a place like that. But really setting Aarn apart in that department would be tricky.

 

As much as I would like to someday describe the Sunless Realms in more detail, I agree that for the time being at least there are plenty of products out there that a GM can shoehorn in if need be. I've been intrigued by the idea of campaigning in an all-underground setting -- have been ever since Modules D1-D3.

 

Vornakkia is definitely one of my favorite parts of Ambrethel, if not the favorite -- and you're right, I really enjoyed creating it. Eltirian, in fact, predates the creation of the TA book; it was the setting of one of the earliest short stories I wrote (well, tried to write). Your suggestion of a double city book intrigues me. While I know that would inevitably lead to some GMs complaining that I gave both cities short shrift, the more I think about it the more appealing it becomes to me. Doing it that way would definitely keep the creative juices flowing -- if I get tired of one city, I write about the other for awhile. Heck, maybe we could even publish it like the old SF two-story paperbacks where the front and back covers both have illos but the back cover and second story are "upside down." (Kidding! Just kidding!)

 

Thanx!

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

I think the reverse covers for a double book would be a cool marketing concept. Definitely attract attention.

[Lee]

Me, too. GDW did it way (way, way) back in the day with their (now Classic) Traveller double adventures. I thought it was cool.

[Spence]

Well, just my 2 cents.  In a very broad sense, cities/towns have two types of details.  Physical and Political. 

 

Physical details are things like locations such as shops and such with any needed maps.  A short description of streets, sewers, and so with any illustrations or diagrams/maps.  A new GM can quickly assimilate enough of this type of information to begin a game and then read up on anything else they may need as required.

 

The other part, Political, sounds great but is the major reason that 99% of those kinds of products gather dust on the shelf. 

Most modern gamers hold full time jobs (40 to 60 hours a week) and then have to deal with family issues.  This leaves them MAYBE an hour a night, but not every night, to use for gaming.  Say 4 to 5 hours a 7 day week.  Indepth political intrigue of the type alluded to above is easy when you are making it up yourself,  but a grueling exercise when you are trying to commit to memory someone else's creations. 

 

Ask the question: can a GM read and understand enough to actually run the city in a game with a cumulative total reading time of 4 hours? If not it will be a niche collectors item and gather dust. 

 

TA was a great read as I recall from when I read it years ago.  But Hero has always written from a "coolness/let's be unique" angle instead of a "let's make it easy for a GM to use in a game" angle.  None of the nations or cultures ever stuck with me because they have no real world analog.  

A GM doesn't run a world, they run an area of a world, but trying to filter through the "oh God let's not make this easy" mode to locate an area that will fit the intended game becomes work instead of play.

 

Are there dwarves? Call them anything you want, but add dwarf in the description so they can be easily located. 

 

D&D is still dominant because it gives people what they want, not what they say they want.  Playable supplements that are easy to absorb in small bite sized morsels. 

 

TA is like Midgard.  A cool book that we simply didn't have time to actually use. 

 

A book about Aarn could be great.  But if running Aarn requires making sense of (begin ridiculously overly large examples) 32 political factions with all 2317 nobles fully stated out with agendas. Well doorstop it is. 

 

Ask the question, how many fantasy large metropolises are currently out there? I Don't know exactly, but I have 7 on my shelf. 

 

How many fully realized small towns suitable for beginning parties (1st thru 3rd level in D&D speak) are there?  Ones that are not Built around some bizarre "the author thought this was cool" concept. I can't answer that one because I have yet to find one.  I do have a few partially completed small towns. 

 

Give people the COMPLETE physical layout of the city, town, what have you, and then an overview (high-level overview) of the political arena with some suggestions.  But make the political stuff easy to separate and ignore such as a separate chapter that will not impact the rest of the book if ignored.

 

Have great ideas for a politically driven game, that is called an Adventure Module. 

 

Want to show gangs and guild territories on the map.  DO NOT put them on the main city map.  Add a smaller scaled low detail map with the territories shown. The GM may want to toss the them for his own creations.  Which is hard if they are printed everywhere.

 

The long and the short of it is too much detail is just as deadly to a product as too little.  And a city is not a location for the writers campaign, it is a location for the purchaser to build their campaign.

 

Aarn looks to be a popular choice.  Built to be digested in small bites. 

 

For myself, I have come to the conclusion that a simple small town will never happen, so I am building my own in my painfully slow way.

 

 

 

 

[assault]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

For myself, I have come to the conclusion that a simple small town will never happen, so I am building my own in my painfully slow way.

 Midkemia Press did a handful of them back in the 80s.

 

They're still available in PDF through the above link.

 

I particularly suggest looking at Towns of the Outlands, which is free!