"What are the elves like?"

[Duke Bushido]

On 3/21/2022 at 8:06 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

I still say that you could replace typical elves with halflings. 

 

Seriously, NB:

 

I am,exremely interested in seeing this explored!  Care to elaborate a bit?

[TheNaga]

I started making my elves for Champions instead of Fantasy Heroes.  My elves never evolved on earth but they instead evolved on their home dimension, which is known as Tír na nÓg.

 
For everyday spent in Tír na nÓg, a week passes on Earth.  Time lost on the dimension of the elves catches up with the traveler.  Non-natives who spend time in Tír na nÓg and then return to Earth instantly “catch up.”  A visitor who stays a long time in the dimension of the elves may die if “catching up” with Material Plane time takes them beyond their normal lifespan.

 

My elves come in only two types, those elves that don't have feathery wings and those that have feathery wings.

 

Elves' magic abilities are extremely high since they are the one who first discovered magic more than ten thousand years ago

 

I have thought that my elves are unable to metabolize iron.  I have also wanted my elves to have touch-contact weakness to iron.

 

One of my elves has large branching antlers.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Seriously, NB:

 

I am,exremely interested in seeing this explored!  Care to elaborate a bit?

I don’t half this too much fleshed out. The main idea is if you look at how elves/fairies were portrayed before Tolkien, you see that they are small and hide for the normal world. So I’m thinking if you remove typical elves, halflings could fill in that role. Halflings hide well from humans. I would just then give halflings more magic.

 

 

@Chris Goodwin, one thought about elves in particular is that they represent the supernatural. Yes, humans can sometimes do supernatural however elves are supernatural in the mundane. 

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I don’t half this too much fleshed out. The main idea is if you look at how elves/fairies were portrayed before Tolkien, you see that they are small and hide for the normal world. So I’m thinking if you remove typical elves, halflings could fill in that role. Halflings hide well from humans. I would just then give halflings more magic.

 

 

 

That's if you only go as far back as the Romantic period of the 18th and 19th Centuries. With industrialization and urbanization there was decreased human interaction with the natural world, so elves, fairies, and the like which were associated with them were not as widely believed in, and in art became idealized as shyer, less threatening and more playful. In the Middle/ Dark Ages such beings were perceived as being more proximate, powerful, and dangerous. But since there's much precedent for both viewpoints, there's no reason they can't coexist in someone's fiction.

[Chris Goodwin]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

 

@Chris Goodwin, one thought about elves in particular is that they represent the supernatural. Yes, humans can sometimes do supernatural however elves are supernatural in the mundane. 

 

It seems to me then that the creatures we're calling "elves" (or the Fair Folk, or the Sidhe) in a fantasy game are the same creatures we're calling "Greys" or "aliens" in a modern milieu.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

 

That's if you only go as far back as the Romantic period of the 18th and 19th Centuries. With industrialization and urbanization there was decreased human interaction with the natural world, so elves, fairies, and the like which were associated with them were not as widely believed in, and in art became idealized as shyer, less threatening and more playful. In the Middle/ Dark Ages such beings were perceived as being more proximate, powerful, and dangerous. But since there's much precedent for both viewpoints, there's no reason they can't coexist in someone's fiction.

Right, i was going with the 19th century vibe albeit Halflings seems easier to picture as adventurers rather than pixies. ymmv

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

It seems to me then that the creatures we're calling "elves" (or the Fair Folk, or the Sidhe) in a fantasy game are the same creatures we're calling "Greys" or "aliens" in a modern milieu.

It could be if you want. But there is still a distinction between the two to me . It is rather hard to explain. If you go with grey men, yes they are mysterious, but still feel like they are part of the human world. Elves of legend are from the otherside of the Veil. The Veil is non of the human experience, usually only after Death or some rare event. 

[Lord Liaden]

But that "feeling" is also dependent on how the "greys" are presented. In the climax of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, humans are literally elevated to a greater universe by celestial beings with knowledge and power beyond our comprehension. Granted, the feel of them is more angelic than fey, but definitely not of this Earth.

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

It seems to me then that the creatures we're calling "elves" (or the Fair Folk, or the Sidhe) in a fantasy game are the same creatures we're calling "Greys" or "aliens" in a modern milieu.

 

My opinion is that both represent our instinctive desire to interact with the wonder and mystery and awesomeness that we want to believe lies beneath or beyond the mundane world of our personal experience. To touch it, to speak with it, to understand what it is and our place in it. The world sometimes fills us with awe and joy, sometimes terror, so that greater world we imagine can do both.

 

In the contemporary world, science has replaced the supernatural as the lens through which we view the world, and the language by which we explain it. Practically speaking we still have gods and dragons, angels and demons, but instead of descending from mountain tops or sailing from distant islands on ships of cloud, they arrive from other planets in vessels of technology.

[tkdguy]

In Tolkien's mythology, the elven soul "consumes" the body over millennia. This means that elves become purely spiritual beings, and those elves who refused to sail to Valinor remained on earth as incorporeal creatures. Since Men left the world after death, the elvish souls are what we consider ghosts. This was explained in Carl F. Hofstetter's book, The Nature of Middle-earth.

 

You can use elves that way in your campaign. They would probably be NPC-only unless you allow incorporeal characters.

[Old Man]

On 3/21/2022 at 5:06 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Throughout 5-10 thousand years of human history, humans have been miners and craftsmen... and foresters and hunters and loggers... and fisherfolk... and peasants and nobles... and shipbuilders and sailors... and thieves... and guards... and nomads... and city folk... and on and on...

 

In a setting where dwarves are miners and craftsmen, does that mean no one else is?  

 

Elven mail and elven swords that glow in the presence of orcs, and... other things?  Are made out of metal by elves, right?  Did they at least work the metal?

 

Why aren't elves miners?  Don't say it's because they can't go underground... how many of us have played elves that have gone into dungeons?

 

I once put together a very handwavy campaign setting* in which there were wood dwarves and cave elves.  The former were a bit like Snow White dwarves, only more hard drinking and focused on forestry instead of mining.  They actively manage their woods, felling sick trees to make way for new saplings, clearing undergrowth, and so on.

 

Cave elves were a bit like drow only super pale and way more creepy.  They are unnaturally slender and flexible so that they can squirm through the narrowest of crevices, and tend to carry little for the same reason.  They have to avoid sunlight but can be quite at home in larger cities, especially ones with underground works. 

 

But to partially answer your question, dwarves are miners and craftsmen because that's what they were in the Norse mythology from whence they came.

 

* Handwavy as in there wasn't even a map or a name, just a few pages describing the general area and situation in which the campaign was to start.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, tkdguy said:

In Tolkien's mythology, the elven soul "consumes" the body over millennia. This means that elves become purely spiritual beings, and those elves who refused to sail to Valinor remained on earth as incorporeal creatures. Since Men left the world after death, the elvish souls are what we consider ghosts. This was explained in Carl F. Hofstetter's book, The Nature of Middle-earth.

 

You can use elves that way in your campaign. They would probably be NPC-only unless you allow incorporeal characters.

I’d relook at that again. Elves are tied to Adra. They are not consumed but if they died through fault or accident they go to their own version of Heaven. They can reincarnate if they wish however the the pain and misery of Adra marred is enough that almost none have done it.

[tkdguy]

18 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’d relook at that again. Elves are tied to Adra. They are not consumed but if they died through fault or accident they go to their own version of Heaven. They can reincarnate if they wish however the the pain and misery of Adra marred is enough that almost none have done it.

 

While elves are tied to Arda, they are normally summoned to Mandos, and may be reimbodied if they wish (and the Valar deem him/her purified of any sins committed in life). But there are some elves who refuse the summons and thus become "unhoused" spirits. These spirits could project their images to others, although they had no physical existence and were known as phantoms. 

 

Fea (spirit) does in time consume hroa (body) for elves. Sailing to Aman would slow or halt this process, which was one of the reasons most elves left.

[archer]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’d relook at that again. Elves are tied to Adra. They are not consumed but if they died through fault or accident they go to their own version of Heaven. They can reincarnate if they wish however the the pain and misery of Adra marred is enough that almost none have done it.

 

Well, Tolkien wasn't known for being internally consistent, especially when it came to his unpublished thoughts.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 3/8/2022 at 2:45 AM, Chris Goodwin said:

If they do exist, what's their history in the world?  Why are they showing themselves now?  Can players choose to play them?

Just saw this. And good questions for any game really.

[DShomshak]

23 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

It seems to me then that the creatures we're calling "elves" (or the Fair Folk, or the Sidhe) in a fantasy game are the same creatures we're calling "Greys" or "aliens" in a modern milieu.

You are not alone in this thought. Game writer Ken Hite has explored this idea a bit, and I don't recall the name of the ufologist he said inspired him. But yes, there's plenty to work with. Strange abductions with gaps in time, crop circles as fairy rings, for a start. Hite prefers the term "ultraterrestrial" for all creatures from Beyond the Fields we Know, as not presuming where the entities come from.

 

Are Greys fairies that have adopted modern, quasi-scientific guise? Or were fairies aliens, filtered through the interpretations of low-tech people? Or are both of these equally false and true -- attemots to classify and ascribe meaning to entities that are wholly Outside? Any option might be good for a game.

 

Incidentally, Jim Butcher plays with the idea in the Dresden Files books as well: his version of svartalves look like Greys.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Ninja-Bear]

@Chris Goodwin, I would say though ultimately having elves or not really depends on GM and Players. Do you need them to play Fantasy? No. But I wouldn’t recommend not using them just because they are elves either. 

[tkdguy]

5 hours ago, archer said:

 

Well, Tolkien wasn't known for being internally consistent, especially when it came to his unpublished thoughts.

 

Tolkien kept revising his Legendarium up to the end. The Silmarillion was in many ways Christopher's best guess as to what his father intended. Note that he also changed his mind about his decisions while editing the book.

[Ninja-Bear]

Curious did Fantasy Hero 1st Ed elves and such have certain D&D abilities? I know 2nd had some.

[tkdguy]

From Fantasy HERO 1st Edition

 

Elven Racial Abilities: +2" Max. Running to 12" Max (Cost: 1), +2" Running, Base 8" (Cost: 4), See at night: +4 Perception (Cost: 22) Base CHAR (Cost: 5), CHAR Maxima (Cost: -5) Total Cost: 27

 

Elf Package Deal: Stealth 12- (Cost: 5), Fam w/ Magic Skill 8- (Cost: 1), KS: Elvish History 11- (Cost: 2), KS: Woods 11- (Cost: 2)PS: Current Occupation 11- (Cost: 2), Elf Package Bonus (Cost: -3), Unusual Looks (Cost: -3) Total Cost: 6

 

The base and maximum CHAR values for elves are:

STR 8/16, DEX 11/21, CON 10/20, BODY 9/18, INT 13/23, EGO 11/21, PRE 10/20, COM 12/22, PD 2/6, ED 2/6, SPD 2/4, REC 4/10, END 20/50, STUN 18/45.

 

Dwarves and Halflings also had different base and maximum CHAR values, as well as racial abilities. There is no Halfling Package Deal; I had to make my own. The Dwarf Package Deal is present

[Ninja-Bear]

I rather like the see at night better than IR or it’s later version Darkvision. I would change that in Basic Fantasy game if I ran it again. 
 

I remember that 2nd Ed dwarves had similar abilities in Hero terms that are D&D ish (I don’t think Tolkien) like Detect Cunning Stonework for example.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:11 AM, Duke Bushido said:

 

Seriously, NB:

 

I am,exremely interested in seeing this explored!  Care to elaborate a bit?

Also, did you watch Game of Thrones? The Children, which I don’t know how faithful to the books they are, also remind me of Elves that appear Halfling like. Now in the show the look like very young teens and small. Well they weren’t called the Children for nothing! And that reminds me of Halflings because they’re usually presented as Child like, as the other peoples in the game world think of  them.

[Duke Bushido]

I'll bite.

 

Without any facetiousness; because I am interested in what you have been saying thus far:

 

Why not?

 

 

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I wouldn’t recommend not using them just because they are elves either. 

 

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Also, did you watch Game of Thrones? 

 

Nope.

 

To be fair, it had nothing to do with material itself; it is more a matyer of lifestyle: I work between sixty and eighty hours a week, and amongst other things, I game and het ready to game.  I dont watch much television at all.  I nvere really did, though, having grown up without television, I never for indoctrinated into the habit like most people in my age group, and now that I sit here thinking about it, I dont think I have watched _anything_ regularly since Futuarama got canned the last time.

 

 

[DShomshak]

To adapt a bit from Aleister Crowley's Book of Lies:

 

"Good Fantasy must have elves, they're traditional."

                                                                                      \

                                                                                        Let these two asses be set to grind corn.

                                                                                      /

"Good Fantasy mustn't have elves, they're cliche."

 

Make a world to fit the story you want to tell. You have no external obligations.

 

Dean Shomshak