"What are the elves like?"

[Ninja-Bear]

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Me personally? What I wrote above. I know for a great many people it's "D&D Elves" as in the noted cliches, which is understandable.

 

Now, if someone says "Tolkien-esque Elves" I instantly know what they mean.

 

I would contend that Gygax did not set out to make people who had not read Tolkien familiar with his Elves. He used Tolkien-esque Elves precisely because so many people had read Tolkien. Along with Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins (alternate name for Orcs), Halflings, "Treants" (Ents), Rangers, "mithral" (mithril), "worgs" (wargs, giant riding wolves), Balrogs (the "Type VI" demons like Balor), and so on.

That and I think Gygax got in trouble with using Hobbit from the Tolkien Estate. I believe I heard somewhere that elves and such was added in because Tolkien was popular at the time a a miniature line came out and players wanted to play them. So as a concession of sorts he created the familiar races but that is why they were limited in levels and such.

[Ninja-Bear]

I still say that you could replace typical elves with halflings. 

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I still say that you could replace typical elves with halflings. 

 

That's a new one for this particular topic! 

 

Tell us more!  

 

 

[Hermit]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I still say that you could replace typical elves with halflings. 

"Today is my 1111th Birthday!"-Bilbolas Bagleaf

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

11 hours ago, archer said:

 

 

When someone else mentions his elves, I assume they're talking about immortal tree-huggers who are as obsessed with lineage and the belief that "worthiness comes through having the right bloodlines" as the most snobby British aristocrat of fiction.

 

If I ever run 5e, I may run with this, to a near literalness, by making Elves the Nobility and Aristocracy, and because of the lands they have staked out, it forces the Humans and halflings to go to the colonies if they want to grow enough to eat, or make money.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't like halflings/hobbits because they were written and designed very specifically, and carefully, for the story he had to tell.  Pulling them out of that setting doesn't make sense, and they are strictly and exclusively a Tolkien creation.  Its not like there's any other sources or origins for the hobbit, they're Tolkien specials.

[assault]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

If I ever run 5e, I may run with this, to a near literalness, by making Elves the Nobility and Aristocracy, and because of the lands they have staked out, it forces the Humans and halflings to go to the colonies if they want to grow enough to eat, or make money.

Dwarves remain miners and craftsmen.

I would probably use halflings as peasants. Someone has to grow crops for the Elves.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, assault said:

Dwarves remain miners and craftsmen.

I would probably use halflings as peasants. Someone has to grow crops for the Elves.

Exactly, though Humans would make the core of the Yeomanry. (give all the dwarves Welsh accents.)

[assault]

And while we are at it: halflings pay tax, respect their betters, and are humorously bucolic. Goblins don't, and aren't.

[Ninja-Bear]

Games workshop years ago had a board game. You were an elf kingdom fighting other elf kingdoms with dragons and men 

were their servants (slaves iirc).

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I don't like halflings/hobbits because they were written and designed very specifically, and carefully, for the story he had to tell.  Pulling them out of that setting doesn't make sense, and they are strictly and exclusively a Tolkien creation.  Its not like there's any other sources or origins for the hobbit, they're Tolkien specials.

I have the impression that hobbits are what elves have become in later mythology and tales. Hob is an old term for elf. So a halfling would to me still be elf just not Tolkien’s. 

[Chris Goodwin]

5 hours ago, assault said:

Dwarves remain miners and craftsmen.

 

Throughout 5-10 thousand years of human history, humans have been miners and craftsmen... and foresters and hunters and loggers... and fisherfolk... and peasants and nobles... and shipbuilders and sailors... and thieves... and guards... and nomads... and city folk... and on and on...

 

In a setting where dwarves are miners and craftsmen, does that mean no one else is?  

 

Elven mail and elven swords that glow in the presence of orcs, and... other things?  Are made out of metal by elves, right?  Did they at least work the metal?

 

Why aren't elves miners?  Don't say it's because they can't go underground... how many of us have played elves that have gone into dungeons?

[assault]

Another possible approach to Elves would be to base them on Greek mythological Satyrs.

 

Satyrs started off being represented with lots of animal characteristics, but gradually evolved into human like beings who were sometimes immortal, had pointed ears and of course possessed the other distinctive feature of the satyr. And they hang around in wilderness areas, are somewhat dangerous to be around and are associated with minor goddesses and nature spirits.

 

Elves, surely.

[Opal]

So, I apologize if this is obvious nd has already been said repeatedly:

 

Like any other perplexing perennial dysfunction endemic to our hobby, It's all D&D's fault.

 

The vast majority of us come to the hobby through D&D, and it forms our expectations for good or ill.

Tolkienesque Elves are just another annoying part of that.

 

And, if you just can't stand that or anything else about D&D, you probably just walked away from the hobby after a session.

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Throughout 5-10 thousand years of human history, humans have been miners and craftsmen... and foresters and hunters and loggers... and fisherfolk... and peasants and nobles... and shipbuilders and sailors... and thieves... and guards... and nomads... and city folk... and on and on...

 

In a setting where dwarves are miners and craftsmen, does that mean no one else is?  

 

Elven mail and elven swords that glow in the presence of orcs, and... other things?  Are made out of metal by elves, right?  Did they at least work the metal?

 

Why aren't elves miners?  Don't say it's because they can't go underground... how many of us have played elves that have gone into dungeons?

 

Tolkien's Noldor learned craftsmanship from the gods themselves, which is how they could craft Silmarils and Rings of Power. But Dwarves in Norse myth are the apex magical craftsmen who could forge miracles. They're not the only people pursuing that activity, but they're the best. I can't recall much in the myths about their ecology or civilization, but if you work in metal, mining would logically be an important industry. As mentioned before, Tolkien's Elves could and did live underground, notably in Nargothrond and, later, Mirkwood.

 

But D&D made the choice to give each race its unique ecological niche, like animals in nature. Within that niche no one can match them. Humans OTOH are generalists. They're rarely the best in any field, but they can adopt a wider range of them than any other race. Which is kind of how humans in the real world are compared to every other animal on this planet.

[Ninja-Bear]

9 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Throughout 5-10 thousand years of human history, humans have been miners and craftsmen... and foresters and hunters and loggers... and fisherfolk... and peasants and nobles... and shipbuilders and sailors... and thieves... and guards... and nomads... and city folk... and on and on...

 

In a setting where dwarves are miners and craftsmen, does that mean no one else is?  

 

Elven mail and elven swords that glow in the presence of orcs, and... other things?  Are made out of metal by elves, right?  Did they at least work the metal?

 

Why aren't elves miners?  Don't say it's because they can't go underground... how many of us have played elves that have gone into dungeons?

The dwarves loved the Noldor because the Noldor loved to work with metal. The thing is the dwarves are renowned for their working of metal. Just like the real world where one culture excels at a certain task doesn’t mean that no other culture doesn’t typically do it. Off the top of my head look a archery. Dang near every culture has a bow of some sort however a Sioux Bow is much different than an English Lowbow and a Mongolian horse bow is different than a Samurai bow. 
 

(Did I mention that I had an evil group called the Cult of the Anvil that was jealous of any dwarven techniques that were shared to non-dwarves?)

 

in a world with stereotypical dwarves I would see mining would be like this. Dwarves excel at mining and rather enjoy it. They are the best at reading the land so to speak and take their time to build incredibly sound structures. By comparison humans are rank amateurs. Human can and do mine but not as beautifully as dwarves and don’t have the experience in building or patience either. Elves? Naturally they could mine if they wanted to and had to but probably culturally a minor taboo against it. Also why mine when you can trade with dwarves and humans that will do the dirty work?

I also thought of having a game where humans can’t be magic users. It ends up bad for them. However elves can be because that is part of their nature.

[assault]

11 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Why aren't elves miners?  Don't say it's because they can't go underground... how many of us have played elves that have gone into dungeons?

 

In the context Scott and I were discussing, Elves are the nobility.

They don't mine because they have lackeys for that. They don't grow potatoes for the same reason.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 minute ago, assault said:

 

In the context Scott and I were discussing, Elves are the nobility.

They don't mine because they have lackeys for that. They don't grow potatoes for the same reason.

 

 

Man, I have to write all of this down, and make it happen.  THings are just falling into place.

[DShomshak]

13 hours ago, Opal said:

So, I apologize if this is obvious nd has already been said repeatedly:

 

Like any other perplexing perennial dysfunction endemic to our hobby, It's all D&D's fault.

 

The vast majority of us come to the hobby through D&D, and it forms our expectations for good or ill.

Tolkienesque Elves are just another annoying part of that.

 

And, if you just can't stand that or anything else about D&D, you probably just walked away from the hobby after a session.

This. So much this.

 

I am sorry if this comes off as sharp, but... The initial question -- What can you do with elves, dwarves, and other D&D-ish multiple races, that hasn't been done to death -- is the wrong question.

 

The correct question is: If you are not, in fact, playing D&D, why are you making everything just like D&D?

 

As I have said before, I quite like 5th ed D&D. I find the rules, well, adequate for doing what they are supposed to do. Embedded setting elements that I don't like I find easy to alter or remove. (Like, my game has a completely different set of other planes -- which is a possibility the 5e books themselves suggest.)

 

But I don't imagine that because D&D did something a particular way, any other Fantasy game must follow its lead.

 

As has been noted here, folklore, myth and Fantasy fiction have portrayed many different versions of faerie-folk whom we might fairly describe as "elves." Other games have, too.

 

Take Exalted, for instance. In Exalted, the "Fair Folk" -- also called raksha -- generally follow the familiar pattern of beautiful, pointy-eared humanoids. Though they don't have to. But they are creatures of primordial Chaos that have taken a semblance of form in order to enter the world and destroy it from the inside. They eat souls. They are masks without faces behind them, playing at being people, but not. Part of their survival and predation method is to play roles, and beguile mortals into playing along. As the emotional interaction gets more intense, the raksha feeds, untio the mortal is left an empty, mindless, soulless husk.

 

And this version of elves has jumped from game to Fantasy fiction. Genevieve Cogman, who as a game writer did much to develop Exalted's Fair Folk, now writes a Fantasy fiction series starting with The Invisible Library. I've started that first book, and am amused to see that her faieries follow the Exalted model.

 

"The forms and themes of poetry do not become outworn or exhausted. The exhaustion is in the individual poets." -- Clark Ashton Smith. One could say the same about the tropes of myth. It's only the particular executions that become cliche. Dig down into the raw ore of myth, and you can forge a new version.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Scott Ruggels]

Quote

The correct question is: If you are not, in fact, playing D&D, why are you making everything just like D&D?

 

I ask myself this, every time someone posts a D&D conversion to X Edition of Hero, here on the Fantasy Forum.....  Make your own thing.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think if you like the world feel and play experience of D&D but can't stand the mechanics, its not unreasonable to do conversions.  Certainly they've had some wonderful adventures published over the years that are fun to convert.

[SCUBA Hero]

9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

The dwarves loved the Noldor because the Noldor loved to work with metal. The thing is the dwarves are renowned for their working of metal. 
 

(Did I mention that I had an evil group called the Cult of the Anvil that was jealous of any dwarven techniques that were shared to non-dwarves?)

 

in a world with stereotypical dwarves I would see mining would be like this. Dwarves excel at mining and rather enjoy it. They are the best at reading the land so to speak and take their time to build incredibly sound structures. By comparison humans are rank amateurs. Human can and do mine but not as beautifully as dwarves and don’t have the experience in building or patience either.

 

I like the Cult of the Anvil.  Makes perfect sense.  "You taught one of the Hidden Mysteries to a *human*?  You know the penalty... [sound of steel sliding out of a scabbard]"

 

In Harn, the Khuzdul (Dwarves) are the master masons.  Sure Humans build keeps and castles, but... want round towers instead of square?  Want the best quality and defenses?  Hire a Khuzdul to oversee the project.  (They have a double-tongue-and-groove technique that makes the strongest known stone wall.)

[Hermit]

19 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

I like the Cult of the Anvil.  Makes perfect sense.  "You taught one of the Hidden Mysteries to a *human*?  You know the penalty... [sound of steel sliding out of a scabbard]"

 

In Harn, the Khuzdul (Dwarves) are the master masons.  Sure Humans build keeps and castles, but... want round towers instead of square?  Want the best quality and defenses?  Hire a Khuzdul to oversee the project.  (They have a double-tongue-and-groove technique that makes the strongest known stone wall.)

 

I'll second that praise for the Cult of the Anvil idea...  it even might be used as part of the reason tech doesn't advance among humans too much in the gaming setting. There's less sharing of craft science, and those that do share it could get in trouble with the Cult. 

 

EDIT: Apologies to Ninja-Bear, and proper credit sent!

[Lord Liaden]

Thanks Hermit, but the Cult of the Anvil is Ninja-Bear's concept, not mine.

 

Part of the legend of Bruce Lee is that he was subject to censure by the Chinese community for teaching his martial arts techniques to other ethnicities, so that's one precedent.

[Ninja-Bear]

Thank you both LL and Hermit! Please use that concept.

[Duke Bushido]

18 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

I ask myself this, every time someone posts a D&D conversion to X Edition of Hero, here on the Fantasy Forum.....  Make your own thing.

 

While I agree with you, we newd to remeber that this thread grew out of one (out of three) current threads about solving the "not enough people have the time, experience, or resources to make their own thing."