Endurance Use Questions

[specks]

I have a question about endurance characteristic.

Do you use the END characteristic in your games or do you ignore it?

If you do use it how do you keep track of it?

Do you have any house rules concerning it's use?

 

[SCUBA Hero]

Superhero Genre

• Use END
• Track with pencil and paper
• No house rules

[Christopher R Taylor]

Any genre 

• Use END
• Track with dry erase on plastic sleeve over character sheet
• no house rule

[LoneWolf]

• Use END
• Calculate out normal END usage and note when it differs
• No house rules

When I create my characters, I figure out how much END they use and how long they can go.   Most of the time I build so they can go for a decent amount of time so I don't have to track every point.   What I do is to note anytime my END usage goes over or under that.  Most of the time I only need to figure out the END usage at the end of the turn.  When I get low on END I will start to track it more carefully.  

[Joe Walsh]

I use it, but not when introducing new players to the system.

 

A scratch sheet is used for keeping track of END.

 

No house rules.

[Utensil]

I generally build my characters in a way that even using Endurance it will take me at least 3 turns to exhaust what I use. In some cases such as using an item with Charges my characters can last like a minute or more.

 

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, SCUBA Hero said:

Superhero Genre

• Use END
• Track with pencil and paper
• No house rules

 

 

Ditto.

 

[assault]

Another ditto.

 

Although for any genre.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Ditto.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Most games ignore END even Supers.

Scratch Paper when using.

No House Rules.

 

[Ockham's Spoon]

I use END, but give the players two options:

1. Build your character however you like, but you have to track END carefully

2. Build your character so they can go at least 3 turns in normal combat without running out of END.  You don't need to track END, and if something unusual happens in combat (an END Drain, or they had to push END or something), we just assume average END use up to that point to determine how much END you have left.

 

Most players go with option 2, but I have had some that enjoy micromanaging their END for maximum effect.  Option 1 is also appropriate for characters who have an 'ultimate attack' that is devastating, but costs x5 END or something so they can't use it willy-nilly.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

I use END, but give the players two options:

1. Build your character however you like, but you have to track END carefully

2. Build your character so they can go at least 3 turns in normal combat without running out of END.  You don't need to track END, and if something unusual happens in combat (an END Drain, or they had to push END or something), we just assume average END use up to that point to determine how much END you have left.

 

Most players go with option 2, but I have had some that enjoy micromanaging their END for maximum effect.  Option 1 is also appropriate for characters who have an 'ultimate attack' that is devastating, but costs x5 END or something so they can't use it willy-nilly.

I like your Option 2. My buddy was thinking something like that. An END. Tax if you will. Figure out how much END a character would normally use a Turm and buy that much.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

If all you want all your pc's and npc's to be Fezzik, by all means ignore Endurance.  If you'd like a little more complexity than 'You put down your rock and I'll put down my sword and we'll beat each other to death like civilized people', then keep your options open.

 

 

 

[SCUBA Hero]

4 hours ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

2. Build your character so they can go at least 3 turns in normal combat without running out of END.  You don't need to track END, and if something unusual happens in combat (an END Drain, or they had to push END or something), we just assume average END use up to that point to determine how much END you have left.

 

So if a character gets KO'd and Recovers, do you start tracking END from that point?

[Ockham's Spoon]

28 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

So if a character gets KO'd and Recovers, do you start tracking END from that point?

Yes, then they have to track their END.  This has had the curious effect of making some players a tad more cautious (keeping more levels in DCV or dodging) so that they don't get knocked out, and other players going for broke when their STUN is low because they know they are going to have to start tracking END one way or the other.

[unclevlad]

This actually brings up an interesting point.

 

How long do folks build their END consumption per turn, versus purchased END, to last, assuming normal use?  3 turns has been cited a couple times....

[Duke Bushido]

I find for myself and most of my supers players that it is less about END than it is about Reduced Endurance and Recovery.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Many of my builds can last several minutes and a few can even keep going forever unless LTE rules are being used.  My group tends to limit the DEX and SPD of the characters and usually adjust the NPCs from any books we use to fit our ranges.   In a Super Heroic game most, characters are a 4 SPD, and a particularly quick character may have a 5, a 6 or higher SPD is usually a speedster.   In a Heroic game most, characters have a 3 or 4 SPD.   As long as everyone keeps to this it works out really well.  Combat takes less time in the game, but last longer in real time. 

 

When someone new comes in with a character that does not match this, we gently suggest that they may want to tone it down and let them know that if they don’t all the NPCs and creatures will be boosted as well.  We have never had anyone refuse to do this. 

[Ockham's Spoon]

21 hours ago, unclevlad said:

This actually brings up an interesting point.

 

How long do folks build their END consumption per turn, versus purchased END, to last, assuming normal use?  3 turns has been cited a couple times....

3 turns because most of our combats don't last any longer than that, so it you can go that long you don't need to track END.

[Ninja-Bear]

@LoneWolf, I find your Super Hero speed spread interesting. Not because I think that in any way it’s wrong. It’s because it seems that to most people, that would be low for a typical Supers game. Do you keep agents at a lower speed then? 

[LoneWolf]

We adjust the SPD of everything.  Typically, Agents have a 3 SPD.  The Idea is that unless you have a super power that would increase your SPD we try to keep to “Normal” human range.     

[Duke Bushido]

17 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

We adjust the SPD of everything.  Typically, Agents have a 3 SPD.  The Idea is that unless you have a super power that would increase your SPD we try to keep to “Normal” human range.     

 

Same here.

 

The idea is that from the source material, most supers are normal people with abilities like strength, or being bullet proof, or shooting lasers, or being super-agile--

 

But not noticeably faster than their opponents.   There are exceptions, of course:  Speedsters, spiderman-   

 

Before I continue, let me point out that I am not the first or even the fifth person to use this example on the board.  Every use of it has been met with "but that all comes down to individual authors or the needs of one particular story" or words to that effect.

 

I would also like to point you that those authors and those stories are the off-touted "source material" many of those same,respondents hold in exmplum of what our games should strive to look like.  I point that out as a community service:  before deciding to ignore the example, think a bit on what sort of hypocrite you would like be. 

 

There qas a story where Spiderman defeated the entirety of the X_men.  It wasnt a battle, either.  He was in a hurry to get somwhere. He was literally "just passing through," and took them down on the way by.

 

This suggest that the X-men are all lower speed than Spiderman, and that makes sense: being super strong and made,of metal doesnt in anyway imply that you are faster than a normal person.  Having claws ans super-senses (and smokong xigars in spite of having super olfactory abilities), or having the ability to shoot lasers from your face or to summon thunderstorms-

 

There is nothing in those power sets that mandates or even suggests being faster (in a SPD sense) that a normal person, who can, through intense training, get up to..... Four?  Five if he's a title character?

 

We see,lots and lots of agents in the source material, and more importantly, we see super heroes having a hard time,dealing with them.

 

If you run an agent at SPD3 and a "typical" super at SPD 7, even a well-trained 5-team,isnt going to have a chance in aything sbort of an ambush and /or using weapons that are either specifically-tailored foe the HERO being encounted or so ovwrpowered as to make you think it is more practical to use it to take out entire armies and conquer a small nation.

 

Speed 3 agents are a threat to SPD 3 supers.  They have a chance against SPD 5 supers.

 

When you see supers atracked,by agents, they dont win because they have so many more avtions that they can hit and move fast,enough to convince the agents that they are surrounded-  at least, not outsise of a Champions game.  It doesn't happen in the sourvw material,unless we arw doing a throw-away bit to show off some novel power stunt or a brand new power "I have been working on, but the reader has never seen it, so let's bring everybody up to speed on this new writer's take on the character."

 

In the source material, the supers win because of their powers (they can soak the beating, and return a more severe beating, defeating the agents through simple attrition) or through superior knowledge, cunning, or creativity-  finding something,in the situation which their powers allows them to exploit.

 

 

So yeah:

 

Except for speedsters or the odd Supergodlikeman pastiche, most aupers on my game hover around a 4 spd as well.  Because except for their powers of magic, defense, whatever-  they are normal people with (at least eventually) lots of combat experience and if they are lucky, some training.

 

If you are running Iron Man and Hawkeye at SPD 8, then where is the Flash?  Of some,other speedster?  Or those "galactic-level threats" that get talked about a lot?

 

If you are running Batman at SPD 6, he is _not_ a normal well-trained human, and has legitimate super powers of his own.

 

 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

A higher SPD also allows a character to move a lot faster.  A character with a 12” movement and a 2 SPD moves at about 8.5 MPH at noncombat speeds.  This is actually very close to what an average human can run.  A character with a 4 SPD and a 20” movement moves at about 28 MPH which is about what Usain bolt’s speed was clocked at.  A character with a 5 SPD and a 12” running would be moving at about 21 MPH.  Above a 5 SPD a character is starting to get to the point that they can chase down cars.  This is one reason I will often by down the running of a character with a high SPD.  Just because a character reacts quicker in combat does not mean he should be able to run as fast as a car.  

 

A well-built character will take these types of things into account.

[Tech]

On 4/13/2022 at 5:03 PM, SCUBA Hero said:

Superhero Genre

• Use END
• Track with pencil and paper
• No house rules

Yeah, another ditto. The players design their characters with END in mind. Some characters are built so that they can only last a short while in combat.

[Hugh Neilson]

6 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Same here.

 

The idea is that from the source material, most supers are normal people with abilities like strength, or being bullet proof, or shooting lasers, or being super-agile--

 

But not noticeably faster than their opponents.   There are exceptions, of course:  Speedsters, spiderman-  

 

Unfortunately, that ship sailed when 1e provided sample characters with DEX 18 - 30 and SPD 4 - 7 (although 7 SPD Mechanon could reasonably be excluded as an "example").  At that time, I don't think anyone gave a lot of thought to the range of stats for non-powered persons, only that 10s across the board was an average human.  It was only when Espionage and Fantasy Hero came along that these got considered (and a soft cap of 20 was a good fit comparing to some other game's range of 3 - 18).