HOUSE RULES: Fixing the stun Lottary

[JmOz]

How would you fix it?

 

One thing I am toying with is this:

 

Multiply by the stun multiplier ONLY what gets through the rDEF, this will make it very dangerous for Mundanes (no rDEF) but against heroes or people in body armor not so bad

[Talon]

Either a fixed x3 stun mod or (on a d6) 2,2,3,3,3.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Our group has used a very simple "house rule" for years. (So simple, in fact, that it's scarcely a house rule.) We just roll the STUNx on the Hit Location Chart instead of rolling 1d6-1. We don't actually use the HLC in our Champions games (we're not using the BODY multipliers and other effects), we just use the 3d6 bell curve to flatten out the STUN lottery. It makes results of 2-4 more common, and results of 1 and 5 less common...

 

STUNx	Freq. w/1d6-1	Freq. w/3d6
x1	33.33%	6.48%
x2	16.67%	31.02%
x3	16.67%	36.57%
x4	16.67%	21.30%
x5	16.67%	4.63%

One thing I am toying with is this:

Multiply by the stun multiplier ONLY what gets through the rDEF, this will make it very dangerous for Mundanes (no rDEF) but against heroes or people in body armor not so bad

This seems problematic to me. The average super in a standard Champions game probably has around 15 rDEF. At that level, a typical super would take no damage at all from a 4d6 Killing Attack (a 60 Active Point Power) on an average roll. Plus, it seems unrealistic to me that it would very common for, say, a police officer to get shot in the chest while wearing a bulletproof vest, take no BODY, and therefore not even have the wind knocked out of him (i.e., take no STUN). Possible perhaps, but not the norm.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Our group has used a very simple "house rule" for years. (So simple, in fact, that it's scarcely a house rule.) We just roll the STUNx on the Hit Location Chart instead of rolling 1d6-1. We don't actually use the HLC in our Champions games (we're not using the BODY multipliers and other effects), we just use the 3d6 bell curve to flatten out the STUN lottery. It makes results of 2-4 more common, and results of 1 and 5 less common...

 

STUNx	Freq. w/1d6-1	Freq. w/3d6
x1	33.33%	6.48%
x2	16.67%	31.02%
x3	16.67%	36.57%
x4	16.67%	21.30%
x5	16.67%	4.63%

 

This leaves an average stun multiple of 2.87, a bit higher than the 2.67 generated by the d6 method. Seems reasonable - a bit more STUN on average, but a much reduced likelihood of a huge stun multiple. The odds also favour unusually low multiples over unusually high ones.

 

I agree with Derek's comment on using a multiple of BOD that gets through defenses. The only reasonable result of such an approach, in my opinion, is that KA's would not be used against living targets (only against walls, automotons and other things where BOD is all that matters.

[Tom McCarthy]

Although I use the bell curved multipliers from the hit location chart, I've been tempted to go with a multiplier of 2 whenever no BODY damage is done. That means the STUN is lower than a normal attack of equivalent DCs if no BODY gets through, on average. Of course, KAs being what they are, extremes are still more likely.

 

2.5 might work, too. It gives roughly equivalent STUN to a comparable normal attack, but again extremes will occur more frequently.

[TheEmerged]

I'm a proponent of the HCL too -- in fact we even use it in super-heroic genre.

 

However, I use a slight variant for weapons with the Real (-1/4) disadvantage. Basically if a weapon with Real fails to do BODY the StunX is automatically x2. Jokingly known as the "Bullet Bouncing Rule" it helps keep normals and novas where I want them in power balance (although for the record I know my campaign also uses higher-than-the-apparent-norm DEF scores).

 

Of course, the BBR doesn't apply to armor built with Real either...

[Jhamin]

My group went to a flat x3 multiplier over a year ago. It's worked out pretty well.

[Derek Hiemforth]

My main concern with the flat x3 STUNx is that it makes Killing Attack too attractive compared to Energy Blast (IMO). For 60 Active Points, an Energy Blast will give you 42 STUN and 12 BODY. A Killing Attack using the x3 rule will give you 42 STUN and 14 BODY, with more likelihood of doing BODY to all characters, and doing more STUN than the EB to characters with no rDEF.

 

It's certainly not a deal-breaker; the flat x3 rule is definitely workable. Just something to keep in mind.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Maybe a x2 multiple for slashing and stabbing weapons, fangs, claws, etc. and a x3 multiple for heavier impact weapons like firearms, heavy hacking swords, axes, etc. If any BODY gets through, use the normal HERO STUN multiple to represent shock.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

My main concern with the flat x3 STUNx is that it makes Killing Attack too attractive compared to Energy Blast (IMO). For 60 Active Points, an Energy Blast will give you 42 STUN and 12 BODY. A Killing Attack using the x3 rule will give you 42 STUN and 14 BODY, with more likelihood of doing BODY to all characters, and doing more STUN than the EB to characters with no rDEF.

 

It's certainly not a deal-breaker; the flat x3 rule is definitely workable. Just something to keep in mind.

 

You are correct of course. This works in our game primarily becuse I have players wor are willing to buy to concept. The fact that nonresistant characters tend to get gutted by 60AP killing attacks is generally enough of a disadvantage that my players avoid them until they really need to do some property damage.

 

If it is supposed to be a killing attack, it OUGHT to do more body, and the flat x3 lets it do that without ratcheting up the stun.

[Hugh Neilson]

7

Originally posted by Jhamin

You are correct of course. This works in our game primarily becuse I have players wor are willing to buy to concept. The fact that nonresistant characters tend to get gutted by 60AP killing attacks is generally enough of a disadvantage that my players avoid them until they really need to do some property damage.

 

If it is supposed to be a killing attack, it OUGHT to do more body, and the flat x3 lets it do that without ratcheting up the stun.

 

Comparing KA to EB under this approach, the differences are that the KA does more BOD damage and has a reduced likelihood of knockback (14 BOD - 10.5 = 3.5" average vs 12 BOD - 7 = 5" average). In my opinion, the tradeoff creates an insufficient drawback for the KA. Using a deemed multiplier of 2.5 or 2.67 would seem more apropriate (note: even an oddball multiplier isn't a big deal if it's constant - just make a chart). At 3x, the KA is equal in STUN and superior in BOD, making it the better choice. "Buy to concept" helps, but should the player whose concept includes a KA be rewarded by a more efective attack?

 

A flat multiple makes sense, for the reasons stated above. I just think 3x is too high. Maybe go from 1,1,2,3,4,5 to 2,2,2,3,3,4 to provide some variability without the extremes (and the same average roll)? 14 BOD now does 28, 42 or 56. 56 would be a pretty serious roll on a 12d6 EB, but not impossible. Of course, an above average BOD roll and 4 SM is still going to do a lot of damage, but knowing the SM will be 2 half the time curtails some desire to use the KA in hopes of a big SM.

[Doc Democracy]

Just more grist to the mill. In the past I considered making the STUN multiple = the number the to hit roll was made by (to a maximum of 5).

 

That means that good to-hit rollss with killing weapons are rewarded. It does make them very dangerous to use against normals but it might make 'heroes' more unlikely to use them that way.

[Rick]

In Champions we use a 1/2d6 stunX, this makes it a body dealing attack, and EB's are used for standard attacks. In Hero level games we go W/1d6-1 when using attacks that don't use Hit loc (AE: and the not), to keep in line W/the Hit loc chart.

[dugfromthearth]

I use the simplest system I know of.

 

every 5pts in a KA is 1d6. Roll dmg as per a normal attack, but only resistant defenses apply as per a killing attack.

 

Makes it much easier on new players as well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: HOUSE RULES: Fixing the stun Lottary

 

Originally posted by JmOz

How would you fix it?

 

One thing I am toying with is this:

 

Multiply by the stun multiplier ONLY what gets through the rDEF, this will make it very dangerous for Mundanes (no rDEF) but against heroes or people in body armor not so bad

This is how I do it. The STUN multiplier is applied to the BODY which gets through defenses, but the target takes that much STUN w/o applying defenses. Damage Reduction works normally against this STUN. KB is resolved normally as well, off the full body.

 

It's worked well for me for....oh, about 10 years at least.

[Killer Shrike]

Heres a transplant from another thread:

 

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

My house rule on Killing Attacks is that the STUN Multiple applies to the BODY that gets thru defenses, but the target just takes the STUN w/o applying defenses. Damage Reduction applies normally to the STUN.

 

Thus if a 3d6 HKA hits a guy with 3 PD and 9 rPD, if the BODY roll is 11 and the STUN Multile is 3 then the target takes 11-9 = 2 BODY Taken * 3 = 6 STUN Taken rather than 33 - 12 = 21 STUN Taken.

 

Same 3d6 HKA hits the same guy with 3 PD and 9 rPD, Max damage is 18 BODY with a STUN Multiple of 5, and the target takes 18-9 = 9 BODY Taken * 5 = 45 STUN Taken rather than 55 - 12 = 43 STUN Taken.

 

By comparison a 9d6N attack hits the same guy with 3 PD and 9 rPD. The attack does 9 BODY and 25 STUN on average, and results in 0 BODY Taken and 13 STUN Taken.

 

Same 9d6N attack hits the same guy with 3 PD and 9 rPD. Max damage, the attack does 18 BODY and 54 STUN, and results in 6 BODY Taken and 42 STUN Taken.

 

Reduces the STUN Lotto heavily.

[lemming]

Another straight x3 Stun Mod. For eight years now.

[Max Callahan]

The somewhat insane method my group used for a while was a stun multiplier of 2d6/2 -1 (yes this does mean our stun multipliers often ended in .5)

It gives you a good solid 2.5 average stun multiplier, and has the advantage of increasing the number of possible stun results, but does pretty much mean everyone needs a calculator.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

This seems problematic to me. The average super in a standard Champions game probably has around 15 rDEF. At that level, a typical super would take no damage at all from a 4d6 Killing Attack (a 60 Active Point Power) on an average roll. Plus, it seems unrealistic to me that it would very common for, say, a police officer to get shot in the chest while wearing a bulletproof vest, take no BODY, and therefore not even have the wind knocked out of him (i.e., take no STUN). Possible perhaps, but not the norm.

I find this appropriate in a Supers game, where people rarely actually die. In effect most Killing Attacks end up being AP or Penetrating or just have more dice to get past defenses, which also serves to either lower the overall dice available or require a higher commitment of character points.

 

Also, on a decent roll w/ that same 4d6 RKA/HKA, lets say an 18, 3 BODY get thru, causing between 0 and 15 STUN directly. Most Supers characters dont have more than 10 to 15 BODY, so one decent KA takes them down 1/3 or 1/5th of their total BODY. A 60 Active Point Normal damage attack will practically never cause any BODY at all to the 15 rDEF super, so this seems to work out to me.

 

Lighter defended characters would get smeared by the same KA of course, and a cops KEVLAR vest is 9DEF -- even a "heavy kevlar vest" is 11, not 15. I use the 9 DEF for normal vests and 11 for that stuff SWAT wears. So in that case the average roll on a 4d6 KA = 14 BODY - 9 rDEF = 5 BODY. If the STUN Multiple averaged to 3 thats 15 STUN and if it averaged to 2 its 10 STUN which the cop takes w/o applying any defense to it. Rolling 3d6 for KB averages 10 or 11 14-11 = 3" of KB on average which is probably not enough to get much thru the KEVLAR vest, but on a decent KB roll, that poor cop goes sailing into a wall or something and likely is out of the fight. Even if the cop gets back up, one more average 4d6 KA will put them in critical condition.

 

As a side note, in my campaign most characters have around 10 rDEF in the 5e tradition of having slightly lower defenses, but thats neither here nor there.

 

Killing attacks still get used on occasion, and they do kill, but they are used sparingly because their only purpose IS to kill. I just got fed up with Killing Attacks being used by munckiny players to knock people out. Totally defeats the purpose of having Killing & Normal dmg IMO.

[Lord Liaden]

For a long time I've used a bell-curve generating approach: for the Stun Multiplier I roll 3D6 as with Skills, divide the result by three (I have a small chart with the roundoffs already figure), then subtract 1. In practice this gives me a Killing Attack which fairly reliably generates more BODY but less STUN than a Normal Damage Attack of equal Damage Class, which is supposed to be the difference between the two.

 

What bothers me about rolling on the Hit Locations Table to decide STUN is that the placement of different sized multipliers is not linearly distributed: going from low roll to high roll, we have x5, x1, x2, x3, x3, x4, x4, x2, x2, x1. I prefer to have middle range results more firmly grouped in the middle and either extreme at either end, as with the bell curve.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

What bothers me about rolling on the Hit Locations Table to decide STUN is that the placement of different sized multipliers is not linearly distributed: going from low roll to high roll, we have x5, x1, x2, x3, x3, x4, x4, x2, x2, x1. I prefer to have middle range results more firmly grouped in the middle and either extreme at either end, as with the bell curve.

Ooooh... how about a nice symmetrical look, where x1 and x5 are equally likely, x2 and x4 are equally likely, and x3 is by far the most likely. For example...

 

3d6 Roll	STUNx	% Chance
3-5	x1	4.63
6-8	x2	21.30
9-12	x3	48.15
13-15	x4	21.30
16-18	x5	4.63

 

I think this would have a few points in its favor as a STUNx mechanism. It would make rolling high good, which goes along with the general mechanics for rolling damage. It does result in slightly higher STUN overall, because it isn't bottom-weighted toward 1 like the normal 1d6-1 roll is, but I think that's offset by the much greater weighting in the center. You'll get a result of 3 virtually half the time, and results of 1 or 5 only about one time in ten. It makes the STUNx much more stable, but still allows for some variance.

 

If you wanted to be a heretic and introduce a non-6-sided die into the game, you could even roll it on a d20 and get results with perfect breakpoints...

 

1d20 Roll	STUNx	% Chance
1	x1	5
2-5	x2	20
6-15	x3	50
16-19	x4	20
20	x5	5

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

I use the simplest system I know of.

every 5pts in a KA is 1d6. Roll dmg as per a normal attack, but only resistant defenses apply as per a killing attack.

Makes it much easier on new players as well.

This seems unbalanced to me. If you go by the guidelines on page 15 of H5E, the average attack power in a standard superheroic campaign is 60 active points, while the average defenses are 20DEF/10rDEF. (I think the defenses actually average a little higher than that, but I'll use their numbers.)

 

With a 12d6 Energy Blast, that will result in 0 BODY and 22 STUN after defenses on an average roll, and you'd almost never do BODY (the chances of getting 21 BODY on 12 dice are extremely small). Using your option with a 12d6 Killing Attack, it would result in 2 BODY and 32 STUN after defenses, and you'd usually do BODY... sometimes several BODY. All for no increase in cost.

 

I think the nuts-and-bolts are workable, I just don't think it's cost balanced. Using your system, I'd suggest making "Killing" a +1/2 Advantage on Energy Blast. That would make a 60 Active Point attack 8d6. It would then do less STUN than a 12d6 EB (18 instead of 22), and would still do no BODY on an average roll. But it would be much more likely to do BODY than the EB would, since you'd only need to roll 3 BODY over average instead of 9 over. Essentially, it would tend to result in more BODY and less STUN than an EB of the same Active Points.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Re: HOUSE RULES: Fixing the stun Lottary

 

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

This is how I do it. The STUN multiplier is applied to the BODY which gets through defenses, but the target takes that much STUN w/o applying defenses. Damage Reduction works normally against this STUN. KB is resolved normally as well, off the full body.

 

It's worked well for me for....oh, about 10 years at least.

 

One extra I'd add to this rule is that it doesn't apply with armor that has the Real Armor limitation. Any points of Body stopped by Real Armor still get factored into the multiplier.

[Guest Keneton]

3 Solutions I have tried

 

Solution #1: Most simple and likely best for supers

 

Roll 1/2d6 +1 or bettr yet get a half die from chessex or the like roll and add 1 to the roll. This is actaully noted in FRED.

 

Solution #2: A little more complex but works very well.

 

a. Use hit locations but pay close attention to the Nstun column.

 

b. Multiply all body from kills times three.

 

c. Apply defenses normally. (see faq about force wall (WHOLE OTHER THREAD!)

 

d. Apply Nstun factor to remaining stun.(ex Stomach x1.5, head x2, arm x1/2)

 

e. apply damage reduction last.

 

An example in play. Man is shot with a desert eagle 2d6K with +1 Stun X. Damage is 7 body. Location is chest. Apply 7x4 (3 +1)=28. Now apply defenses (in this case 15 total 5 resistant). Stun that gets through is 13 and 3 body.

 

If that same shot hits the head handle like this. 28 -15= 13 x2 (Nstun = 26 Stun). 7-5=2 Body x2 (Body x) = 4 body.

 

If to the arm or foot for example. . .

28-15=13 x 1/2 = 6 gets through. Body is 8-5=3 x 1/2 = 1 Body.

 

Check for impairing and disabling noramlly before or after body x.

 

Method 3: ALL NEW

 

a. Treat all stun multiples as x3.

b. Use hit locations for all Normal and killing attacks.

c. Modify DC of attack as follows. (this modifier is Uncapped Bonus damage and is unaffected by modifiers like a haymaker or Move Thru Velocity)

 

CHART

Head +2 DC

Stomach/Vital +1 DC

Chest Normal

Thigh -1 DC

Hand/Arms/Legs/Feet -2 DC

 

Now this method is fun and fast, but not signifigantly play tested. It works for all genres, and plays well. No more stun lottery, but you still get full use of hit locations and some variety using partial coverage and called shots.

 

Your comments are appreciated.

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Two other possibilities:

 

* Double the cost of killing attacks

 

* Set DC max for killing attacks at half that for other attacks.