How do you get players to role play in genre?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Hey all,

 

I have a group that just can't seem to grasp the conventions of the genre no matter what I do or how much I try to explain it. They come from a Dungeons and Dragons background and the game just seems to degenerate into getting to the fight as quickly as possible. The players are rarely in character and when I try to run stuff that might lead to more roleplaying, it generally goes nowhere. And yes...I have told the players about my concerns, but they just don't seem to get it(or don't care). I'm at my wits end. Help!

 

Rob

[Lowly Uhlan]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

What have you been trying to do to get them into the roleplaying aspect?

[Fitz]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Beatings. Beatings are the answer, beatings with the stick of pain.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Well....generally I try to offer scenarios where there's a chance to roleplay quite a bit(dialogue with NPCs and so forth). I've also made it clear that I'd give extra XP for roleplaying. I've also....many times...given examples of what I consider in genre....and what is not. My group as a whole is from the Hack and Slash school of RPing and I frequently get scenarios and comments like this..

 

GM: " You're going to use 12d6 on a normal thug? "

 

Player: " Well, if they can't take the punishment, then they shouldn't commit crimes. "

 

This is frustrating as hell...as well as annoying. Yes, I can jail them and all that stuff, but that just turns the game into a me vs them scenario and I don't role play just to have hard feelings on the part of everyone involved. For the record, though I'm an experienced Hero player, this is my first time GMing. The game has run over a year...so it's not like these are new issues....or that they've never been mentioned before. Basically, the game is beginning to feel more like a chore...and I feel less and less incentive to provide interesting scenarios as as feel all that effort will be watsed. I really just don't know what else to do. I want the game to continue though(not a quitter here).

 

Rob

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

this might not work .. but try it.

 

Force them to write out how a scenario went from their characters point of view. Basically, get them to write a very short story (page or two) for each game session.

 

Don't give them XP for a session until you have at least something. If they always write:

 

"We saw a thug, we beat him up. We went to Jimmy's Bar, we beat up some guys. I used my new Mega Ray on them, it was fun."

 

Give them 1pt.

 

If they actually write in character, with thoughts behind the actions they may get more attached to the charater as a person and start role playing them as such. Give these people more XP, 2-4 or more if that's what you feel.

 

I know a lot of gamers who are amateur writers (myself included) and jump at the opportunity to put into writing a game session, without incentive to get XP out of it.

 

But, I know many gamers who couldn't write their way out of a paper bag with both ends open. This method all depends on the kind of people who have in your group.

[Descant]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

 

I don't envy you.

 

I firmly believe that a GM's job is to give the players the kind of game they want to play... while still hurling a few surprises now and again! As a player, if a game stops being fun, I look elsewhere. It's a game. It's supposed to be something you play because you enjoy it. As a GM, that's a bit heftier of a responsibility, because your dissatisfaction will let several people down. And it really seems to me that everybody in the group, save you, likes hack-and-slash. And they aren't wrong in this; it's their preference.

 

Then again, just because Raven's son likes macaroni and cheese, that doesn't mean we can't introduce him to a good pepperoni pizza!

 

If you're really set on seeing this through, and trying to get them to see role-playing in a different light, I suggest a few things that have helped out the few-and-far-between hackers that have come Raven's way (my ex, for one!) truly become involved in gaming scenarios, and their characters, in ways they never thought possible. Try out a two-part plan.

 

Thing #1: Demonstration. Set an example for them. Find a role-playing buddy who knows what those words mean to you. Tell him about the campaign you want to run. Then, break the news to him about how the campaign has been so far. Tell him you're looking to make things a bit more story-oriented, and would like somebody to show just how it's done. See if he'll help. If you're good with bigger groups, make it two, if you can.

 

Thing #2: Incentive. Introduce your new people to the group, in and out of character. Before the scenario, look at the disads of each character, and try to find ways of working them into the story. Make the characters react, not just chit-chat. Remember, you'll have at least one other person who'll get their hooks into it. The others might think, "whoa!", and try to get in on the action, too. Also, don't give the butchers any more agents. They want a game where they don't have to pull punches, give it to them. Have them fight supers. If they insist on villainous behavior, give them guys who'll make their bloody battles seem like boxing matches. Real mean guys who make them look nice by comparison. Maybe even make a character or two who is immune to almost all of their usual cut-and-dry attacks, but who's got a major achilles heel they'll have to work together to find. Make the bad-guys taunt the characters, and see if they throw it back with more than just their guns. Let the villains get away, make your guys mad, hit their egos (gently) where they'll feel it. Then, let them trash the jerks in an all-out final scene and reap the glory. HERO-style. (There is a scenario I used once, and I cannot for the life of me find the %$#@! book, but it had three adventures in it, one of which dealt with a supergroup called Spectrum, and put the heat on the heroes in a neat way. It might be just what you need!) If your role-player buddy/ies have done their job, and you have done yours, they might just get caught up in it, and find that something truly involving is just more fun to play.

 

As a side note, see what books they read or what movies they watch. Make a few plot-parallels. Meet them halfway. See how well you can draw out the things that they might like to role-play, and see if they go for the bait.

 

Best of luck to you... and keep us posted on how it works out!

[Doug McCrae]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Basically' date=' the game is beginning to feel more like a chore...and I feel less and less incentive to provide interesting scenarios as as feel all that effort will be watsed. I really just don't know what else to do. I want the game to continue though(not a quitter here).[/quote']If, for you, the game is creating more pain than pleasure then quitting is the right thing to do. Maybe it'd help to look at it as a temporary hiatus rather than quitting. Rethink your approach, refresh your creative juices...

 

And find some new players.

[mr_azrad]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Ghost Angel had some good ideas.

 

I would be very stingy on exp and tell them why.

 

Also, so players just suck; maybe you should try to find some new ones (can be difficult). Or maybe let one of your players GM a game and see how they like it.

 

The Mad Arab

[tesuji]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Ok, having had some hack n slashers in my day, some thoughts...

 

first off, as you have, explain to them they type of game you want.

second, realize the type of game you want and the type of game they want are not necessarily the same. they might just be wanting to hang with friends and "blow stuff up" to let off steam... the equivalent of friday night fights. if so, your game goal and theirs might be at odds. if you dont have fun running a game the way they want, it might be time to find anoth3er group.

Maybe even, if some want Rping and some want just fights, alternate parts of the group... two different campaigns.

 

So finally we come down to maybe they just need to see how much fun the other side is. In truth, this is the rarer of cases. But its the one all good Gms hope they have.

 

Ok, so after having already explained to them about the goal of the campaign, the first thing you need to do to foster roleplaying and actions beyond the tactical is to introduce interesting, dynamic and INTRIGUING NPCs. before you get them to think beyond the "plusses and dice", you have to hook them with a character outside of their own firebolt that they like.

 

good examples would be, for typical power gamers, interesting females (who may oir may not be intersted in them), children (everybody wants to help kids), and usually a combination of competence, need and HUMOR (gotta make them entertaining, make the players want scenes with them in it.)

 

keep them around for several episodes before really pulling the biggies.

 

at the same time, make the violence an integral part of your ongoing story. highlight the very moral issue as a part of CHARACTER development and it might well mimic itself in player development.

 

in the mean time, start runnign scenarios that are, while a fight, more than just a fight. have NPCs threatened by misses and have them die if the heroes press the attack. Show consequences and sure, when a hero cripples a NPC criminal, have legal troubles ensue... bvut not onerously. heck, you can even have it be the supoporters who are the problem...

 

Hero uncorks on criminal and cripples him. Some public outdry and police look into it but do not press charges in a controversial decision. HERO gets bad press AND good press from anti-crime groups. Have the villain turned loose on a technality, but killed soon after or maybe dissappear. HERO gets behind the scenes pat on the back from some police guys who are of the "kill 'em all if you can get away with it" and run a plot line where darker and darker elements of society start applauding the hero's violent overkill. If you make his supporters more and more scumy, possibly even leading into tipping him off to opportunities to maul normals or to bring him in into some "Star Chamber" sort of payback.

 

The idea is to eventually find enough scummy guys supporting the hero(es) that the players start to see the type of company they are attracting are people they would rather bust.

 

use the NPCs to reflect the characters own violence, just a little exaggerated.

 

then, have the people the heroes like, having slowly gotten more and more fed up, start pointing out, in word or deed, the problem. heck, maybe that nice reporter has been investigating the corruption in the police, the violence coverups, and now is targetted by the very groups the heroes have been involved with. Now the hero has to choose, the reporter he likes or the somewhat sleazy guys who have been egging on and facilitating his "blow 'em to hell!" activities.

 

and of course, now an again, have scenarios where a fight is not the answer at all. Frequently enough to remind them there are more than combat stats. Highlight a PC's "odd skill for flavor" by making it integral for a scenario.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

I applaud everyone's great ideas on this all too common situation.

 

It's almost like we need to come up with an equivalent to nicotine gum or 'the patch' for 'hack&slashers' who want to (or maybe just need to) quit but don't know how!

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Descant has some good ideas . Sone I will employ in with my newbie HERO group . They have some very bad habits that I hope to BREAK them of . Good luck withyour group .

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Just for the record, I did say I was willing to compromise. My only issue with that is I'm not sure me giving in will solve the inherent problem. Will me running a game more like Stormwatch or The Authority get me more role playing on the part of my players? My gut instinct is no. I'm also really lenient. I....for the most part....try my best to give them the game they want. There have been villain deaths(with...sadly...very little dramatic flair involved) and they generally get to use the level of force they deem appropriate. It seems like I do all the compromising...and the work(weekly RP updates, bluebooking, and the like) and I'm lucky to get even one in character dialogue blurb per adventure. Ironic thing is if I give them more combat, they're not satisfied unless it's a win for them. The instant a character is even Stunned, the whine fest begins. Generally, I feel as if I've somehow failed as a GM, as I can't seem to get anything out of the group. I read the boards constantly and have tried many ideas in the past...with so far little success. I really appreciate all the ideas though and will try anything I can reasonably manage.

 

Thanks,

Rob

[drnuncheon]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Sometimes players whine even when the game isn't bad. That took me a long time to deal with, but I finally accepted it. Sometimes they don't even realize that they are whining. That aside:

 

I would have the world begin to react to these metahumans. They're super-powerful murderers. They're scary. They're going to be treated like villains.

 

The media will have a field day. Think all the headlines that get put out about Spiderman, but justified.

 

Heros are going to go after them and try to bring them to justice. (Or bring them down, if they're Punisher-type heros.)

 

Governments are going to try breaking their secret identities so they can be arrested. They may call out the national guard or the military to deal with this threat, or if your world includes agencies like SHIELD they may become involved. Or maybe it'll just be a CIA agent with a Ricin-laden dart gun.

 

Villains are going to go after them with unrestrained lethal force (no reason not to!). They're going to go after families and loved ones to use as hostages.

 

Ordinary criminals may put out a 'hit' on them, fearing that they are next.

 

J

[devlin1]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

I'm reminded, as I so often am, of an episode of Batman: The Animated Series.

 

A guy shows up in Gotham (background story snipped) calling himself Lockup. He's brutally tough on criminals-- uses unnecessary, life-threatening force, and so on. So Batman confronts him, and it turns out all he wants to do is work with Batman to fight crime; he just doesn't think Batman takes it far enough. Naturally, they have a fight, Triangle wins, etc.

 

However, I suggest having the PCs encounter a Lockup-type vigilante who goes so far as to kill on a regular basis. The PCs are fighting some baddies, and Too Much Force Man shows up to help, but starts slaughtering thugs, killing unconscious opponents, and generally being an asshole. What do the PCs do? Do they set him straight? Are they appalled by his behavior? If so, then they will have turned a corner, and you can probably continue to steer them away from meaningless violence into less-meaningless violence.

 

And if they think Too Much Force Man is cool, pack your bags, throw in your five bucks for pizza, and get the hell out of there.

[DocMan]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

What genre are you trying to get the players to play in?

 

Have you looked at the players behavior to see if it's consistant with a different genre?

 

If the players aren't being consistant to the game, sometimes it's the game that's wrong. If it's a superhero game and the players just like to take people down, maybe it's time to segue into a Dark Champions game. If it's a fantasy game and the players just want to kill things and loot the bodies, it's time to change to a privateer or highwayman setting.

 

Doc

[Agemegos]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

How familiar are your players with the comic-book superheroes genre?

 

When GMs ask for advice about weaning players off hank-and-slash I usually advise as follows:

 

Start a new campaign. Pick a genre that the players are familiar with from literature and drama (so that they know the genre conventions pretty well) but that they aren't used to role-playing in.

 

Encourage the players to generate characters that conform to genre conventions. It doesn't matter if they are cliché. Particularly, I like to ask players to start out with a character concept that can be summed up with one nounqualified by one adjective, and tell them that (aside from some physical characteristics and game mechanics) is all that I will write down in my notes, and therefore all that I will take into account when GMing.

 

Run a series of adventures with strong support for PCs to engage in the kinds of non-combat activity that is conventional in the genre.

 

Play up to the PCs, so that the events of the adventures, reactions of the NPCs etc. depend on, emphasise, and reinforce the players' choice and portrayal of their characters' qualities.

 

Then, once you have shown players the rewards of non-combat-centred RPGs, you can start another new campaign and switch to the genre you wanted in the first place.

 

The idea is that this approach disengages player's assumption that RPGs are necessarily like what they are used to, gives them a clear framework within which to engage in non-combat activities, and then rewards their first fumbling successes, not with an arbitrary reward of experience points, but with cognitive assonance and a big dose of the pleasure that character-focussed RP brings.

 

Now, as you might guess it is usually people who have become jaded with dungeon-crawling fantasy games, and whose players refuse to 'play right' in more literary fantasy, to whom I have occasion to give this advice. And then I usually suggest the detective/mystery genre and the comic-book superhero gnre as offering genre conventions for extensive non-combat adventure activity and a world setting that is detailed and familiar enough that the players can think of lots of non-combat things to do. But you have already tried comic-book superheroes, and it doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps you might like to try a limited campaign in some other genre that is even more familiar, or has even clearer non-combat opportunities. Had you thought of an eight-week season of "CSI" adventures? How about a Western miniseries? Or a film noir detective agency campaign inspired by "The Maltese Falcon" etc. What genre do your charcter-players like that has lots of non-combat stuff supported by its conventions?

[Vorsch]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

To wean players of hack and slash, or even just to make good players the gm should run detailed prelude type games for each character which explains his motivations and lims and Goals.

 

Let a player shine in his secret id, after all in superman clark kent can bust up cars ,stop bullits, and throw his hat to a hatstand every time. and hes a nerd its funny nd character build, players love funny. ( unless there goths )

[pinecone]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Dude...some people just are not roleplayers....maybe explain how chicks really dig role players... You may just have to live with it or slowly wean them away from the head busting teat......

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Alternately, you could just pick one of the offending players and beat him with the rule book until he's unconcious the second he makes an out of character statement that isn't a question directed at the GM.

 

That'll get their attention.

 

Then announce that they will be roleplaying in character for the remainder of the session. Leave the unconcious player where he fell as a reminder.

 

....

 

violence aside, let us know which methods, if any, worked.

 

One trick one of our GMs uses to get those of us who don't always roleplay well is to figure out what would get the players emotionally involved in their character and not just see them as a lump of numbers on a piece of paper. Sometimes it's an in character love interest, sometimes it's a really cool gadget that they must "figure out" in character, sometimes it's picking a disad and turning into subplot for them. Granted this method it easier with only one or two non-conforming players in a group, a whole group will require time and Mad-GM Skillz on your part.

 

It works to enough of an extent that our heaviest roll-player actually starts to role-play a little.

[Magmarock]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Here's what I would do if I were in your situation:

 

1) Pick your villains

2) Set up map

3) Run a bash

 

rinse and repeat

and again

and again

 

And keep doing this until one or more of the players says, "Hey, where is the story? Why are you running us into fight after fight after fight?"

 

Then I would explain to them that when I tried to run a story they didn't seem to want it... so I am only catering to the players now. I would also explain that I would prefer to have some roleplaying, but if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.... right?

 

Sometimes, reverse psychology works. Maybe this will, too.

 

Mags

 

PS: I forgot to add that maybe your players just don't want to play in a campaign. Maybe they prefer playing in skirmishes (bashes) and that's all they want to do (many 'war-gamers' prefer no roleplaying at all). If this is the case, then you might want to consider finding another group, on another night of course, but continuing with this group is entirely up to you...

[Lowly Uhlan]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

Run 1 or 2 sessions in a row that have no combat. Go ahead and allow skill checks for investigating, building things, ect.(make sure they are interesting sessions and play on the character's backgrounds, biases, whatever). Start with a perfect experience score, then set up specific instances where you would normally award XP for roleplaying. Each time they blow it and don't roleplay, take a point off. All the way to the dreaded 1 point for the entire sessions award. Don't judge whether it's good RPing, just as to whether they even halfway speak and act in character. This may seem harsh, but if they get 1 or 2 XP 2 sessions in a row, then you need new players. D&D combat-mongering has ruined them.

 

And don't explain ANYTHING. As far as how you want them to play, anyway. You are the GM and you are running the game you've put your hard work into. It's your world. If they whine, take points off.

[LordGhee]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

You can not! yes you can lead a horse to water . . . . .. What you might do is shift the campain tone to more what your players are willing to play or get new players. harsh as most of the time the game is a circle of friends. Try an invasion of (select one ) Norse gods, Aliens, furture dudes , past dudes or the guys from alternite demionsions. This is being posted as I beat my head against the wall about my new Fanasty Hero campain and the derection it is going in. In most gaming circles there is the game master and the players his strength is that he is running. The GM has the right to fun also. Do not let any hold the group hostage not the GM or the players. Try dicussion then get new players or change your style, simple, burtal. One option is also the what do you do now (just repeat this after each player tells you something) forceing them to role play to get to the action ect.

If you some times cannot make a group work ( you and them have fun) and a good gamemaster will walk ( or start playing ).

 

hope this helps

Lord Ghee

[Vorsch]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

As to EP, they dont play heroes award the -1 pt, to be sutracted from there favourite power or defence, justification : your not acting heroic, it was explained very clearly when you started, its a heroic universe it notices, which power do you want reduced by 1d6?

 

This is absolutely guaranteed to get there attention.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

I strongly recommend that you go out-of-game with this. If you have the Champions genre book, show them the sections that pertain to your game. If you have any comics of the appropriate genre, pass them out as required reading.

 

Another question: Is the whole group combat-monsters, or just some of them? (As a random note, I've played in plenty of fightless D&D games, and plenty of fight-of-the-week Champions games, so it's a bit unfair to blame the hack-n-slash mentality on D&D. There are bad gamemasters and bad players in EVERY game system and genre.) In this case, it's carrot and stick time. The combat-mongers get 1 XP, the roleplayers get 2 or 3. Announce the XP publically, and inform the combat-mongers why they didn't get as much XP. Go through the XP award table, step by step. "1 XP for showing up, everybody gets that. Bob, George, you get one more for good roleplaying, and another one for (whatever)." That should grab their attention.

[TheEmerged]

Re: How do you get players to role play in genre?

 

First, I find it works best if you're GMing a genre the players like. The one espionage campaign we tried didn't go over well primarily because I'm the only espionage fan of the bunch.

 

Second, never underestimate the power of reward. This goes double if you've got an undercurrent of powergamer in your group. Let the players know there are rewards for roleplaying and then actually give them.

 

Third, accept that some people really do prefer the tactical stuff. Our gaming group began as wargamers getting together to play Battletech, for example, so you'd better believe there's interest in combat. Just as some people prefer steak medium rare and others want it burnt into unrecognizable form, not everyone has the same wants.

 

Never underestimate the need for communication. To use the superheroic genre as an example, you'd be amazed at the people who want to play bronze or iron age characters in a silver age setting. Sometimes you have to "violate the rules" right back; sometimes you have to go to the extreme of *withholding* experience rewards (and make no mistake, at that point you'd better be prepared to lose the player).