Dark Champions hero fragility

[chariot]

So I'm coming to DC after years of 4th ed Champions with heroes who can take lots of shots and keep going.

 

Playtesting a new DC campaign with some players who are new to the Hero System... and well, frankly I am stymied.

 

I don't see how, as GM, to keep these people alive without constantly fudging every dice roll. The amount of damage flung around, with the limited armor is truly frightening. Many times a single shot will bring a character down (which is fine for the bad guys).

 

How do other GM's deal with this?

 

The campaign style is still pretty nebulous, but the closest I can describe it is a Daredevil type with some animated series elements.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

I haven't run a modern-day DC game, but some things I think might help:

 

*Some Combat Luck in addition to armor could be good. So are DCV levels, "only against killing attacks".

 

*Make full use of situational modifiers when shooting at the heroes. Visibility modifiers, cover, etc.

 

*Review your campaign limits and constructions. If you've limited the heroes to 20 Dex, and give thugs 15 dex and 2 levels, they'll hit the heroes on an 11- unless the hero dodges, etc.

 

*Part of it falls to the heroes. Good PRE attacks can give you an edge. Don't drop into the middle of an open warehouse surrounded by thugs with AK's. Use stealth and surprise to sow confusion and weed out the opposition one-by-one when possible. If it's a deadly campaign, grenades and explosives are good for big groups. If it's a more friendly campaign, knockout gas, smoke, and AE flashes are good. The less the GM gets to roll dice, the better.

[MitchellS]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

You deal with this by realizing that characters aren't tanks and they're not supposed to be. There are a whole bunch of combat maneuvers on that list. Unfortunately most people only look at the offensive ones. Dodging, blocking, diving for cover, rolling with the blow, all of these things can help keep a character alive. You need to make the players aware that they can't just suck up damage. They need to spend time avoiding damage as well.

 

After that you need to be aware of who your character's are fighting. Until you get a good handle on combat variances you need to make the villains weaker than the heroes. Give them smaller guns, give them less cv and combat levels, give them lower speeds. You're always going to get the occasional lucky shot on a player but the players shouldn't feel outgunned most of the time.

 

Now as far as limited armor, I'm not sure what you're doing but when I look at the sample characters in Hudson City I see that most of them have some body armor covering some parts of their body. The armor seems to be in the 3-6 defense range. A 5 defense flak vest will stop most average rolls up to 11/2d6 so little body will be getting through.

 

Since your game seems to be more DC:TAS than standard DC you might also want to look at converting some of the killing damage to standard energy blast as well. That might help deal with the lethality problem. As in my first reply though, the players avoiding getting hit is the real key to the game. Daredevil does not let Bullseye shoot him and then keep fighting. He makes Bullseye miss him and then looks for his opportunities to take Bullseye down. Try to have your players emulate that for a bit. It might help.

[OddHat]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

Build and play action-movie tough characters.

 

DC is full of Armor options. Combat Luck, It's Not As Bad As It Looks, Can Take A Punch, etc. A DC character can easilly be running around with 8+ RPD and 50% Damage Reduction before he even puts on a bullet proof vest, if you want him to.

 

Levels in DCV. Cover. Dive for Cover (which you can use even if there is no cover). Missile Deflection defined as Super-Dodge. Regeneration defined as Will to Live. Luck.

 

It can be impossible to kill an Action Hero with anything less than a direct hit from an anti-tank weapon; if that's the genre you're going for, it's not hard to build, even on 150 points.

[Eosin]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

We had to bump UP the lethality of DC weapons cause our group has found the opposite to be true. It is pretty hard to kill someone with Hero System weapons. Now, if your players like to hang their butts in the wind then, yes, you could have a problem.

 

In our 2-3 year campaign, played weekly - we only had 2 or 3 player deaths but had several hospitilizations.

 

Outright ambushes can also get deadly fast.

Also don't plan a whole string of consequetive battles in a day.

 

 

[chariot]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

Thanks... I owe a bunch of rep here. I'm just not playing the game I should be. i see where I fell down, and should be able to compensate nicely.

 

The big mistake was in copying D20 Modern heroes in order to get the players acclimated to the Hero System. And really on not enough points.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

We've just started our DC campaign, but we've addressed this issue two ways: 1) We all have some Resistant defenses 2) We've borrowed a trick from D&D - We literally have a cleric (a Roman Catholic priest) as a PC, and one of his "faith-based" Powers is Healing.

[tancred]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

We had a similar lethality problem in my Post-Apocalyptic Hero game when we started.

All of my players are old-school D&D. They hadn't grasped the concept that you don't have to just stand there and suck up the damage. (I even forget that sometimes, having played so much D&D with them.)

 

But the most amazing thing happened. The player who is playing the leader has the lowest-DEX character in the party, and he got tired of getting hit (and having to spend time healing). So he started Blocking (easier since he's learned to use a sword).

 

Lo and behold, look what happens now!

Now, he prevents one attack, then he gets to go first, even though the opponents are (nearly always) higher DEX than he is. Suddenly, he's not taking damage and having to heal. Now the other players are copying him, and they've gotten noticeably more effective in combat.

 

I actually have to give them tougher opponents, because they're fighting smarter.

 

I must say it's a lot of fun, having 3 modern characters using a longsword, a heavy bow, and a great club, respectively, rather than their M-16s (which are starting to run out of ammo).

[OddHat]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

We had a similar lethality problem in my Post-Apocalyptic Hero game when we started.

All of my players are old-school D&D. They hadn't grasped the concept that you don't have to just stand there and suck up the damage. (I even forget that sometimes, having played so much D&D with them.)

 

But the most amazing thing happened. The player who is playing the leader has the lowest-DEX character in the party, and he got tired of getting hit (and having to spend time healing). So he started Blocking (easier since he's learned to use a sword).

 

Lo and behold, look what happens now!

Now, he prevents one attack, then he gets to go first, even though the opponents are (nearly always) higher DEX than he is. Suddenly, he's not taking damage and having to heal. Now the other players are copying him, and they've gotten noticeably more effective in combat.

 

I actually have to give them tougher opponents, because they're fighting smarter.

 

I must say it's a lot of fun, having 3 modern characters using a longsword, a heavy bow, and a great club, respectively, rather than their M-16s (which are starting to run out of ammo).

 

Great example.

 

Block is incredibly ueful, as is Dodge, espescially the martial versions (and Flying Dodge is insanely overpowered, making you impossible to hit in HtH if you can abort). Dive for Cover + Breakfall (to get up as a 0 Phase action on your next phase) can do wonders as well if your team outnumbers your foes. I had to relearn how to use all of these myself this year (first time in years that I wasn't GMing, and my first time in years where wargaming played more of a role) and they've made a world of difference to how well my characters have done.

[tomd1969]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

So I'm coming to DC after years of 4th ed Champions with heroes who can take lots of shots and keep going.

 

Playtesting a new DC campaign with some players who are new to the Hero System... and well, frankly I am stymied.

 

I don't see how, as GM, to keep these people alive without constantly fudging every dice roll. The amount of damage flung around, with the limited armor is truly frightening. Many times a single shot will bring a character down (which is fine for the bad guys).

 

How do other GM's deal with this?

 

The campaign style is still pretty nebulous, but the closest I can describe it is a Daredevil type with some animated series elements.

 

Is this the fault of the system, or the tactics of the players? DC does not lend itself well to standing still in the middle of a city street blazing away. There are two tactics that I was taught in Basic Training in the US Army: Cover and Concealment. Cover is using the terrain to block incoming enemy fire to avoid being hit; Concealment is using the terrain to hide from the enemy so he doesn't know where to shoot. Drill instructors would repeat this over and over in the hopes that, hopefully, some of this will sink in to our thick skulls.

 

Do you realize that if only the head of an individual is visible due to cover, his opponent has a -8 to hit (IIRC, I don't have the book in front of me)?

[Edsel]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

Our DC games have always suffered from a lack of lethality. We try to model the game as close to real life as we can. (Which is nearly impossible when you get right down to it). This means that things like Deadly Blow are not permitted since you can't make a bullet more deadly with skill. Sure you can more accurately hit smaller targets but realistically you can't raise the damage potential of the bullet just because you are a good shot. About the only thing that we do that could be bending realism is a semi-elaborate critical hit / fumble house rule for those luck enough to roll a three or unlucky enough to roll eighteen. But with modern day, state-of-the-art, body armor it becomes darn near impossible to kill character's with conventional firearms. The well armored character can practically laugh at the gang-bangers as they blaze away with their 9mm pistols.

[bubba smith]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

So I'm coming to DC after years of 4th ed Champions with heroes who can take lots of shots and keep going.

 

Playtesting a new DC campaign with some players who are new to the Hero System... and well, frankly I am stymied.

 

I don't see how, as GM, to keep these people alive without constantly fudging every dice roll. The amount of damage flung around, with the limited armor is truly frightening. Many times a single shot will bring a character down (which is fine for the bad guys).

 

How do other GM's deal with this?

 

The campaign style is still pretty nebulous, but the closest I can describe it is a Daredevil type with some animated series elements.

try reading dark champions the animated series that might help

[Remjin]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

I think most of it has been said. Depending on your style of play. Also remember that normal people or even competent people's stats should start at 8 or 10, and that a 15 is an incredibly good stat, and that 20s and such are world renowned type stuff. The scale is the hard part to grasp, really.

 

We also used "combat luck" as a form of fighting skill, since you were harder to take down because you knew what you were doing. Other than that, the advice about not standing in the open and taking shots is good. Think of even movie scenarios and what people do in gun battles and the like, and simulating even that does help things along.

 

Its just a matter of perspective is all. Players should be encouraged to try and go a little nuts to get extra bonuses as well. Makes it more fun when someone tumbles, dives, jumps all over and such. =)

[Barton]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

My two cents from being a Dark Champions player:

1) never give the bad guys a fair fight; always ambush or get the drop on them

2) do your homework; investigate and scout your battle field if possible then do your attack with a plan, make sure your leader has assigned roles to all the players

3) ALWAYS have an escape plan; have transport ready to get you out after the fight or ready to evac if things go bad

4) remember bad guys are not stupid, find the lookouts and silence them

5) PRE attacks are your FRIEND

6) combat luck, light body armor are required for survival; get a combat skill level in your weapon, make sure you have good weapons/scopes (combat skill level bonus and PSL)

7) use non-combat skills before the combat; use contacts to find out the plans of the buildings, when do the police patrol the area, use computer skills to about the bad guys, lock picking is great to break in and setup an ambush, bugging to learn where and when the bad guys are doing the big deal, .......... I think you get the idea.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

Welcome to a new HERO experience, chariot.

 

From the advice above, I'm most struck with the items that are genre-related. Four-color supers, which it sounds like you're most used to, generally charge straight into battle, relying on their Awesome Super Abilities to see them through. In anything close to the real world, with real weapons, unrestrained use of that approach will get you quickly dead. At least sometimes, defensive Combat Maneuvers, getting behind cover, sniping from a distance, using Stealth and Concealment to avoid combat or strike from ambush, and similar tactics are more practical. They may seem less heroic, but they're really just less superheroic. Even Daredevil, Batman and their ilk use surprise and sneakiness as often as straight-up brawling.

 

BTW are you using the Hit Location chart? If so, eliminating that will immediately lower the potential lethality of the game. And I concur with my colleagues recommending defensive Skills and Talents like Combat Luck, DCV levels, Martial Maneuvers, Defense Maneuver, Danger Sense, and so on.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

Keep the opposition in mind. Untrained foes, meaning those with no formal military training tend to treat fully automatic weapons like they get used in the movies. If your campaign is even semi-realistic this should result in bad guys who just hit everything but the target holding empty weapons and looking confused. Gang bangers tend not to practice with their weapons give them a minus one or two OCV to reflect this.

[bubba smith]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

Keep the opposition in mind. Untrained foes' date=' meaning those with no formal military training tend to treat fully automatic weapons like they get used in the movies. If your campaign is even semi-realistic this should result in bad guys who just hit everything but the target holding empty weapons and looking confused. Gang bangers tend not to practice with their weapons give them a minus one or two OCV to reflect this.[/quote']making the scenario look like a rerun of the A-TEAM

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

wow, some serious thread necromancy at work here.

[pjmfox2003]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

In our current DC game, we don't use the hit location table, only if someone is targeting a specific location (just like your most basic firearms training "aim for center mass"). Also, my players know I don't fudge rolls for them, so they know when to just surrender and try to talk their way out of a situation. I would never kill a PC if they surrender, that's just a cheap shot. Ultimately, gunfights are supposed to be lethal, that's why you try to stack the deck in your favor as much as possible and NEVER play fair. Also, have the players bump up SPD, so they get off the first (and usually last) shot.

[BarretWallace]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

So many threads, so little time...

 

My only real experience with DC-style levels of lethality was our Special Forces campaign that we played in the mid-1990s. It was set in more or less the modern day, but in a sort of alternate timeline with differing political situations etc. The characters were modern-day soldiers (duh) equipped with military weapons (assault rifles, various pistols, grenades, etc.) Each of us played two characters to round out the team better and to give the players something to do when one character was killed or incapacitated.

 

We used the hit location chart for flavor. This added an extra roll to combat, but we got used to it quickly. Hit locations also gave us a real incentive to wear our armor. This was especially true when my M-60 gunner was taken out by a single lucky shot to the head--and yes, if he'd worn his Kevlar, it would have saved his life. My medic was nearly killed by one lucky AK burst. He was saved only through the prompt attention of a teammate.

 

Had our characters gone Arnold when fighting the enemy, they all would have died before the first clip was emptied. Our enemies were usually competent enemy soldiers. We attacked with surprise, from cover when possible, and retreated when the numbers of enemy edged too high. Although wounds of varying severity were fairly common, strong teamwork carried the day. If one guy was down, another would drag him to safety, and still others would cover the rescue. Wounds received prompt attention.

 

I guess this is a long-winded repetition of a few points that have already been made. The lethality of a DC campaign depends on the players, the characters, and the tactics used. We found it quite manageable.

 

Them's my two bits (inflation, y'know).

[Kdansky]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

If you run into problems when balancing your first Hero game, that's not unusual. The system has so much freedom it is pretty much a given that if you build 10 guys (5 PCs and 5 NPCs), you will have at least one or two utterly broken builds. And if you don't know what is broken due to experience, the first few fights will be weird. DOn't be afraid of rewriting characters mid-campaign if the stats don't work well. Out first game had everyone doing 3d6 KAs while wearing about 5/5 defenses. Fights were decided in segment 12.

[Curufea]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

I like the idea of death in a DC game - it gives the setting history and background enabling future heroes a chance to have really good backstories and angst.

[D. Guss Tibus]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

Best advise for chars in Dark Champs?

 

Do like Monty Python---"RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"

 

 

[Barton]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

"Run run away" is one good thing to do.

But realistically , have your players plan well, ambush, NEVER give the enemy a fair fight, use good flanking tactics, and of when things go bad or you are outgunned/outnumbered RUN, RUN, AWAY!

[D. Guss Tibus]

Re: Dark Champions hero fragility

 

"Run run away" is one good thing to do.

But realistically , have your players plan well, ambush, NEVER give the enemy a fair fight, use good flanking tactics, and of when things go bad or you are outgunned/outnumbered RUN, RUN, AWAY!

 

All true. I talked about RUN AWAY cause so few players do it. Even when they need. Kind a from fantasy and super games, where you don't die so offen.