Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

[ShadowRaptor]

Okay, I want to run a encounter with 75 point characters (50 base + 25 disadvantage) to simulate the fact that these characters are later teens and never have really left the village they all grew up in, and I want to run some harrowing encounter that let's them know that the world at large is getting larger and their safe haven is no longer safe.

 

My idea is to basically have them go off with the ranger in the village to go search for a late shipment of materials from the nearest town which is 60 miles away. Along the way they encounter something not natural. My dilemma is, how do I balance an encounter so the creature doesn't kill them immediately?

 

For all of you more experienced with this, how do you plan encounters and what do you look for so this kind of experience (TPK) doesn't happen? Any advice would be welcome very much.

[i3ullseye]

Scapegoats...

 

Allow more than a few NPCs to go with them. And make sure your nasty beasts eats a few, and then is not hungry so leaves the rest. That is the wonderful thing about NPCs, and even Non-DNPC henchmen. The fear of mortality is rarely there for the players themselves, they don;t think you will kill them. They are too important.

 

But Alex the Stable Boy they bring along to feed the horses is fair game!

 

[Old Man]

The usual guidelines are to look at the average OCV, DCV, and damage classes in the group and create the opposition accordingly. So if the group as a whole averages out to OCV/DCV 7, wearing 3 DEF and inflicting 1.5d6K, then an equal number of bad guys ought to be around OCV/DCV 6, 3-4 DEF, doing 1d6+1 or 1.5d6K.

 

Note that these values need to vary pretty sharply if there is a great disparity in numbers. If there's two baddies for every party member, the OCV/DCV should drop by at least one, and the damage by at least a DC. Conversely, if there's a single boss, he's going to get wolfpacked by the party, and OCV/DCV should go up by about two; DC should go up by one or two depending on whether you mind forcing the players to make new characters.

 

You can usually alter the difficulty of combat in mid-fight by changing the intelligence of the bad guys. If the party is just mowing them down they can suddenly elect to use teamwork tactics (like one grabs while the other swings at the 1/2 DCV victim). If the party is on the verge of annihilation, some baddies may gloat too soon, or carelessly wind up for a haymaker. After all, that's how the bad guys lose in the movies.

[tesuji]

Look 75+75 is practically meaningless.

 

There is so wide a range of potential characters and merits and flaws that all you can rely on is experience.

 

One crucial rule of thumb to use until you get a handle on what they can and cannot bear... use reserves.

 

By this i mean set most of the encounters up so that the PCs and especially the players do not know the total battle. Doors leading to other rooms may be closets or they may be guard rooms or they may be hallways down to guard rooms.

 

They see three men-at-arms but do not know how many more are around the corner.

 

With this fluid design, you can add more enemies, or not, as you fit, unsing this time to gain experience with the limits.

 

Try to have some small-medium-large bad guys available, quick sheets at the ready, to toss in at a moments notice. I would have some as normal human/elf etc types but some as monstrous... a goblin, an ogre, a troll, etc... and one or two oddities.

 

Throw in an "unrecognizable, large track... definitely not human" early in the run to add that sense of "something not normal is around here" so that the troll or ogre or boogeyman-de-jour is even freshadowed. (heck, even if it never appears, the occasional unexplained noise or howl will add to the drama.)

 

Keep your options open... start each fight with VISIBLE enemies a little under what you think they can handle, and raise the ante a bit at the time.

 

After a while, experience will help you gauge more closely.

[Old Man]

A lot has to do with player experience as well. If you have a group of players new to the game, then start pretty low and slow so that they get a feel for how combat works (CV 3-5, SPD 2, 3-4 DC)

 

Another thing to think about is if some of the party is weak and some of the party is tough. You have to keep the encounters challenging without having the group write new characters every week.

 

I think it will come to you easier after time.

[ShadowRaptor]

thanks for the little advice I got, I appreciate it. I was also hoping for some experiences some of you have with the game, things of conflicts you encountered and advice in general related to running the game (which I did get some).

[Markdoc]

There is no hard and fast rule, because what's lethal to a 75 point thief in a shirt and tight pants may not be lethal to a 75 point warrior in platemail. Likewise a relatively weak monster can be a challenge to 5 guys in chainmail, but meat on the table for a magic-user.

 

That's why there's no useful "rule of x" and no substitute for experience.

 

Still having said that, a few rules of thumb:

 

Start feeble. You can always add in more baddies to an encounter. It's harder to pull them out once they have shown up. A common Newbie GM problem in any system is to use the neato-keen Big Monster and then after it has kicked the party around without raising a sweat, have to dispose of it in some cheesy fashion (it trips over a rock and breaks it's neck, suddenly falls over from a blow too weak to hurt an ailing granny, etc).

 

Start with monsters that do normal damage (bad guys with clubs, etc) or Reduced Penetration attacks (claws). That way, if things go horribly wrong most of the party is knocked unconscious, rather then torn into small gobbets of flesh. If necessary, one of them can just be *gone* when the others recover. But at least not everyone dies.

 

As a side note, a ruthless but effective method of getting the players to take the game seriously is to kill one of them early on. You don't need to do it gratuitiously, but if it happens early before player gets too attached to the character, it is less traumatic than if it happens after a year's play.

And they remember.....

 

cheers, Mark

[JohnTaber]

Markdoc mentioned the method I use. My first game session always involves wimpy thugs or animals (wolves?) so I can get a feel for the PCs combat prowess. After that I can judge how much villain I need. Balancing combat in FH is very tough. I've been running FH for a long time and sometimes I still don't get it right...

[Old Man]

The "test combat" is always a good idea especially if you've got new players in the group. You never know what they're going to do, and often they'll do some pretty stupid things.

[Killer Shrike]

My advice is a little different.

 

If you are uncomfortable with the relative power level, the combat rules, or any significant aspect of how the rules interact then dont try to shake that out during normal play.

 

Its time for a FIGHT CLUB

 

Of couse, as you all know YOU DONT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB! But, Im going to break Tyler's top 2 rules and do it anyway. He can beat my ass for it later.

 

 

 

Have the players make their characters, but dont obsess over the nitty gritty too much. Broadstrokes are plenty fine for this.

 

 

Get together for a session of pure mechanics. No roleplaying, no character interaction necessary, no continuity -- just mechanics, SFX, and dice rolling.

 

 

Select a few threat ranges; typically follow a progression, like 2 competent but weaker guards, followed by the weak but numerous swarm of 3 per PC, followed by the big ugly single monster/bad ass party crusher.

 

 

Make sure the emphasis is on the rules, not the outcome. Follow the obligatory 'how to run a combat' checklist most games have, look up every rules question, resolve every oddity encountered and annotate them for future research (or to post on a website like this). Dont impose any house rules or spot 'fixes' until you are sure you understand the system well. This is a discovery phase, not a solutions phase.

 

Encourage players to try out ALL of thier characters relevant abilities, not just finding the 1st one that works and sticking with it. Contrive (openly) opportunities for them to use relevant skills to see how they work. If they have variable or switchable abilities (like a boost ability or a in the HERO System assignable Combat Levels), make sure to get some testing in for all of those states.

 

Figure out how 'noticing things' works in the system and implement situations to test them; for example when the PCs are fighting the big baddy, arbitrarily decide that the lights are dimming. Try a few rounds/actions/phases (whatever terminology the game uses) at each significant lightining category.

 

Impose any envorinmental issues commonly exist in that setting randomly (such as null-magic winds in a fantasy game, or sandstorms in a desert game, or hurricanes in a pirate game) so that the players and you both get a handle on how that works before it actually matters in game.

 

Spend some time hammering out any detail of the combat rules that seems confusing.

 

 

Solicit the players input. Though players are a generally low and ignorant lot, they can be devilishly clever at times.

 

 

 

After the session (or if it doesnt slow things down too much, during) do several things:

 

a) Allow the players to alter thier characters based upon thier new knowledge and experience with the system; in some extremes this will include completely dropping a character concept in lieu of one better suited to the system.

 

Ask the players if they individually have any aspects of the combat rules they need further clarification on and try to answer these questions using thier character in a small practical app test. Set up a situation to test or illustrate the situtation and run it through real quick.

 

c) Find out if the group had more fun playing the competant but out numbered guards, the weenie swarm, the Party Smasher, or have no preference. This can vary widely from group to group and player to player, and even genre to genre for the same players in the same group, so its important to get a bead on this early before you spin wheels designing antagonists that are not going to do it for your group.

 

 

 

Ive used this technique many many times, and its always been a good thing.

 

 

Even if you as the GM are comfortable with the rules, and even if the players are too, it can be an excellent excercise when switching genres and/or powerlevels, serving as a trial run.

 

 

It also gives you as the GM a very good handle on the abilities of the PCs and the limitations/strengths of thier players.

YMMV, but good luck either way!

[Captain Obvious]

Another thing you can do, if you're tired of almost equal numbers of almost equal warriors against your PCs, is to throw hordes of small nasties at them. Make up some small crappy monsters like D&D kobolds, and then swarm the PCs for an encounter, or heck a whole adventure. If the PCs actually start taking enough damage to make survival look bleak, you can always have the small cowardly monsters break and run....

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious

... throw hordes of small nasties ... like D&D kobolds ... then swarm the PCs for an encounter, or heck a whole adventure. If the PCs actually start taking enough damage to make survival look bleak, you can always have the small cowardly monsters break and run....

*pleased sigh* Ah, yes. Tucker's Kobolds. The worst group of monsters known to roleplayers, and the most dreaded. Anybody can defeat a dragon or a demon, even an intelligently-played one. What is really dangerous is a whole clan (or three) of small near-human-intelligence monsters who don't play homme's game, running around in an 8' tall corridor.

 

Always remember what the 'human average' on intelligence is, and what even semi-stupid people can come up with. Realize that 'small monsters' are semi-humans, and somewhat intelligent to boot -- and they want to survive. The worst thing in any gaming world is a clan with a plan...

[sevrick]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

I have no idea why the balancing encounters is so vague in the Hero System Books. Steve Needs to come up with a SOLID MECHANIC for balancing combat. I am starting to envy other systems because of this. And before you say "well if you had more balance that would reduce the characters freedom". There are ways. It just would take some time to come up with. I have been working on a solid mechanic for some time but I shouldn't have to that responsibility lies with the game designer. I am talking about having templates to slap down at a moments notice much like DnD. Label them with tags such as;Very Easy, Easy, Challenging, Hard, Very Hard. I have been trying to work with the "Rule of X" that is given in the books. It is proving a formidable task.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

It's vague because it's not a cut-and-dry process. Even D&D's "solid mechanic" comes apart if you're not playing like they expect you to play (party of four, including fighter, wizard, cleric, and thief, with magic items). Hero doesn't make that kind of assumption, and it's more wide-open and flexible to boot.

 

There are many rules of thumb posted in this and other threads on the forums, but none of them are a "solid mechanic"...there is always something weird that will throw it out of kilter.

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

And then there is the mater how "intelligent" you play lesser foes. In the source material they rarely use the best tactics and options. They don't take the Princess hostage, even if she is 5 meters distance from the hero(s). They don't take the best defensive Maneuver.

But some GM do exactly that, thus making even weak guys a much more important force.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

The Ninjas Attack rule: Any time the players are getting bored, *Ninjas Attack!

 

Then you listen to their table chatter about why the Ninjas Attacked!, and pick the best ideas.

 

Congratulations, you have a plot thread they'll want to follow.

 

* Usually shouldn't be actual ninjas.

[tancred]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

Here are a couple of things I have learned in 20+ years of running Hero.

As mentioned above, the OCV/DCV and damage values are very important.

But the defenses of both sides matter too.

 

If numbers are about equal, your opponents should be about equal to your party's numbers for all these values.

If you have more than about 1.5 opponents per party member, tone the opponents down compared to the party.

 

One trick I've recently learned: give the bad guys a combat skill level or two (probably one fewer than most of your players have).

BUT, be ready to add or remove skill levels on the fly, as you see how the battle works out.

For Heroic level games, a +1 can make a large difference.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that STUN adds up.

Even if your bad guys can't get any BODY through the party's defenses, they usually can do at least some STUN. Eventually that will take party members unconscious.

Having the bad guys have Teamwork makes that even more important.

We've been seeing this a lot in both my PA game and Glupii's DC-TAS game we're currently playing.

[drunkonduty]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

Just to add to the good advice already above.

 

I second Old Man's suggestions about comparing OCV/DCV and damage. With a little maths you can get a rough idea of how many rounds of combat it will take to take down an enemy. Or a PC...

 

I will also second the warning that STUN adds up. Especially if a character is outnumbered. A few points per attack from the enemy and before you can say "Post Phase 12 recovery" you're on the ground and semi-conscious.

 

Because the combat system uses 3d6 for the attack roll it only takes a couple of points difference in DCV and OCV to make the combat very one sided. If one combatant has a edge of 2 points in DCV and OCV they will hit on a 13 or down but only be hit on a 9 or down. That's a big difference on the bell curve.

 

Let your players know that the system can be lethal. If you're using hit locations characters can go down in one nasty shot. I was running a game in which the characters didn't wear much armour (ancient Greece setting plus they were on ships a lot of the time) and with regular combat using random hit locations turn up shots to the Vitals a lot. And a shot to the vitals HURTS.

 

If your players are new to HERO then you will want to let them know about the Abort manouevre. People who play other game systems just aren't used to the idea of being able to take an action out of turn. Aborting is particularly useful when the character is in trouble but help is close at hand. Very few Heroic level characters can hope to be hit by an Ogre's club and not be knocked silly. Dodging is the best defence here.

 

Wolf Pack tactics are effective. Attackers get bonuses to hit for having multiple attackers on one target. And they can abort to dodge when targetted in return. This can even out those fights where one side has a greatly superior OCV and DCV. A character in heavy armour can probably avoid taking BODY damage from a pack of goblins but the STUN will still add up. And if someone gets in a lucky shot then the others get a chance to pile on.

 

Ambushes are effective. Bonus to hit plus extra STUN.

 

Wolf Pack tactics and ambush equals very short fight.

 

END can be a pain to track (I wouldn't bother tracking it for every goblin) but it's a good way to limit that Ogre or Giant (who will use a lot of END when swinging that tree around.) If the Ogre has to stop to take a breather every now and then this gives the PCs a chance to either escape or pile on (someone taking a Recovery has a DCV penalty.)

 

Of course this isn't taking into account magic. A pack of goblins will be very easily dispersed by a few low damage area of effect attacks that a big critter may simply ignore.

 

cheers, hope this helps. And good luck!

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

Wolf Pack tactics are effective. Attackers get bonuses to hit for having multiple attackers on one target.

That bonus requires successful coordinated attack (wich requires Teamwork Skill).

 

And they can abort to dodge when targetted in return. This can even out those fights where one side has a greatly superior OCV and DCV. A character in heavy armour can probably avoid taking BODY damage from a pack of goblins but the STUN will still add up. And if someone gets in a lucky shot then the others get a chance to pile on.

More importantly: There are maneuvers that ingore your armor. When they attack you coordinated to trip you, you are in big trouble. Same if they start to grab.

[drunkonduty]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

Yeah, Teamwork skill is a must for Wolf Packs. In fact I buy the skill for actual wolves. As well as goblins. I like the image of the big barbarian trying to swing his axe with a goblin hanging off his weapon arm and another one around his ankles biting away at his ham-strings.

 

I think I'd rather have a lone 150pt PC go up against a lone ogre than four or five goblins.

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

Yeah, Teamwork skill is a must for Wolf Packs. In fact I buy the skill for actual wolves. As well as goblins. I like the image of the big barbarian trying to swing his axe with a goblin hanging off his weapon arm and another one around his ankles biting away at his ham-strings.

 

I think I'd rather have a lone 150pt PC go up against a lone ogre than four or five goblins.

That would mean you propable make those Goblins too strong. Goblins aren#t the smartest and they don't trust each other, so them not having Teamwork makes sense.

 

Using every last Skill and every last avalible tactic is a sure way to de-balance the game in disfavor of the heroes.

 

Remember two basics:

1. The heroes should always be able to win, eventually.

2. Sometimes it's nice to just kick some weakling but, to show the players just how powerfull thier heroes are.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

That would mean you propable make those Goblins too strong. Goblins aren#t the smartest and they don't trust each other, so them not having Teamwork makes sense.

While generally true that is very campaign specific. It often makes more sense for small/weak race to work together. Unless you are playing a specific setting that states such the whole "they don't trust eachother" thing is stupid with pretty much any race or group. No goblins trust any other goblins? Ever? How has the race survived?

 

Using every last Skill and every last avalible tactic is a sure way to de-balance the game in disfavor of the heroes.

He was talking about one skill. Teamwork. That hardly equals the GM "using every last Skill and every last tactic" to slaughter the players.

 

Remember two basics:

1. The heroes should always be able to win, eventually.

2. Sometimes it's nice to just kick some weakling but, to show the players just how powerfull thier heroes are.

 

I think 1 should be "the heroes should always have a chance to win eventually". There should be some real risk of bad things happening, otherwise why use dice?

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

Any game where there can't be a TPK isn't really a game.

 

One of the essential components of a game is the chance of loosing.

[tancred]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

That would mean you propable make those Goblins too strong. Goblins aren#t the smartest and they don't trust each other, so them not having Teamwork makes sense.

 

 

SOME Goblins are plenty smart...

 

That aside, one thing about being able to Abort to a Defensive Maneuver.

It's NOT as useful when your players and their opponents are the same speed.

 

Glupii and I have managed to teach our players that Abort to a Dodge or Block is a good thing.

But if the players and opponents are the same SPD but the players have higher DEXs (which is usually the case in our games), the players have to forgo any attack actions to have the opportunity to Abort to defense (since you can't Abort in the same Segment in which you just took an Attack Action).

 

Or in shorter terms, SPD matters a lot.

 

If the players are just 1 SPD faster than their opponents, they will have a LOT easier time even when outnumbered than if all are the same SPD.

We found this out in the DC:TAS game we're playing the hard way.

 

And one more thing. Using the "Minion Rule" helps the players a lot.

That is, when the low-level opponents hit 0 STUN, take them off the board.

But allow the players to still Recover once they hit zero. They're Heroes, after all.

 

I'm playing a martial artist in the DC:TAS game, and I'm the most "fragile" hand-to-hand fighter we have. We have two bricks and an energy projector besides me.

I've repeatedly been knocked unconscious, but been able to get up and continue fighting after taking a couple of recoveries.

 

If the minions are able to do the same, things are a lot tougher for the players.

This isn't appropriate for more powerful opponents, but lets you throw a lot of minions at your players at the beginning of a battle or session.

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy HERO encounters & balancing them

 

He was talking about one skill. Teamwork. That hardly equals the GM "using every last Skill and every last tactic" to slaughter the players.

Teamwork is powerfull. The Multiple Attacker Bonus can overcome the best DCV, especially when you have numbers. The other rule regarding coordianted attacks can stun the strongest Fighter.

Four 50 point goblisn with teamwork are a lot more dangerous than four 50 point goblisn without teamwork - no mater what the had to give up for those 3 points.

 

And no, do NOT asume the GM is the foe of the players. Teamwork is just one of the traps to make foes more powerfull than they should be.

 

I think 1 should be "the heroes should always have a chance to win eventually". There should be some real risk of bad things happening' date=' otherwise why use dice?[/quote']

My definition of "eventually" includes trying 10 times and failing because of bad dice luck...

 

SOME Goblins are plenty smart...

That means millions more are stupid. And I was talking about those millions, not the dozen or so smart ones.

 

And one more thing. Using the "Minion Rule" helps the players a lot.

That is, when the low-level opponents hit 0 STUN, take them off the board.

But allow the players to still Recover once they hit zero. They're Heroes, after all.

Another important part of "don't playing them to thier full potential".

Stopping to track them once they reach 0 Body/0 Stun, not buying/using teamwork, not using every maneuver (especially if it would be effective). All important parts of balacing an encouter with "weak" foes.