Entangle Abuse

[Bengalelf]

I have enclosed a character in my group who I would consider a brick. I have enclosed a copy of him in hdc format. He is based on Swamp thing.

I feel he has been abusing the entangle rules. When the character was made up he bought the "net Entangle" entangle as listed on his character sheet. It is a 4 1/2 die entangle, area effect one hex, personal immunity. He told me when he made the power he wanted to be able to entangle a villain and then walk through his entangle to pound the snot out of them. I liked the idea so I allowed the power.

Lately he has been casting the entangle on himself, (in his hex) and hiding in it. Last week he hid in the entangle all combat. He did leave it twice to do passing strikes on the villains, but his movement always ended up back in the entangle. He told me he is doing this to force villains to pound through his entangle before they can hit him.

This feel like he is abusing the Champions rules, I was just wondering how you all felt about it.

I know on page 167 of 5th ed revised it mentions about a person being entangle and that the entanlge takes damage first before the person trapped inside does, but can a entangle be used as a defense? And can he fire his entangles at other people outside of his entangle do to personal immunity?

[nexus]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

I don't know if its abusive or not, but I wouldn't call it very Heroic behavior.

[MitchellS]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

What you need is for someone to cast an entangle over his entangle. When he can't get out a few times he might have a change of heart about hiding inside it.

[Hermit]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

What you need is for someone to cast an entangle over his entangle. When he can't get out a few times he might have a change of heart about hiding inside it.

 

I like that

[Fox1]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

The construction is likely legal. After all, we know that a Darkness Field with PI on it allows you to blind your foes and whip on them. This likely isn't much different.

 

That said, there are two highly important points to be made.

 

1. Just because it's legal doesn't mean you should do it. The game is yours, and if you see a behavior or an effect that you feel doesn't belong in it- it's time to remove it.

 

 

2. This is a very non-genre tactic. It smells of playing the game system and not the character. I would be concerned about the player fitting into the group.

[Mister E]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

What a turtler...

 

If the player is having fun with it, why not. It's a pretty creative use of the power, and I bet he didn't think about it, until the situation presented itself, in game. If he continued to use the power like this in every combat, I would add the active point cost of his Entangle, divided by five, to his total Defensive X... to determine whether or not the character was grossly unbalanced. And if that seemed to be the case, take action from there. Lots of characters, early on in a campaign, get a little tweaking at my table.

 

This is one of the potentially shady uses of the Personal Immunity advantage. Definatily not my play style... unless I was also protecting an innoscent bystander, or a weakened PC.

 

I give the player props for improvisation.

[Bengalelf]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

Mitchells,

I like the idea of hitting him with entangles. I plan to run Forced Evolution from Digital Hero # 17, this next game session. Spider's web entangle should work well. Should I change it to area effect. If I am correct, I cannot target Treeant while he is in his entangle unless I use a entangle area effect

[MitchellS]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

I'd just give it area effect. But as the GM you can really do whatever you want. You don't normally need to explain or prove anything to your players. As long as your fair with everyone across the board.

 

Some other suggestions might be a witch who uses transformation on the entangle turning off the personal immunity [it only has 9 body, afterall ]. Or a "big game" hunter sent to bring back Treeant. He just happens to have AE 1hex nets that can cover the entangle. Dispels and suppress also work well. And 8d6 suppress will make the entange too weak to give much resistance to the character.

 

Of course the first thing I'd do is talk to the player and tell him you feel he's abusing the rules and not acting very heroic. Give him some comic book examples and then ask him to show you some examples where heroes act that way. The game is, ultimately, about emulating a genre. Then if he doesn't want to come around I'd nail him.

[Mister E]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

Would Tunneling allow a villain to ignore the Entangle?

[pinecone]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

other gizmo based "counters" are Flash (the universal hoser) and a small AE NND gas bomb that get tossed next to his "tent" he can stay there as long as he wants, but it ,like his weaselly tactic, stinks....but hey I'd talk to the dude. I'd likely point out that he's basicly taking himself out of the fight, and that seems kind of silly....

[Kirby]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

If he's hiding in his own entangle, I'd personally reduce his DCV as well, after all, he's not moving. This could allow someone with a powerful weapon but low OCV to get in that necessary shot.

 

As a villain, if I noticed the "hero" was hiding in his own entangle, I'd ignore him, maybe take the fight to another corner. That way there'd be one less mettlesome do-gooder to knock out.

 

Out of curiosity, is this Swamp Thing-like "hero" well over 6'7"? Because that's as big as the entangle could get. If he is, and he's hiding inside it, then I'd make him 0 OCV. If he's not crouching, then his upper body would be sticking out. (And no respectable villain would punch through the entangle when he could take a path of less resistance.)

 

I definitely see this as a power abuse, so let your flying Energy Blaster villain abuse her powers against him. Or maybe an entire villain team realizes he's doing this and the next time he does so, someone shouts "Plan Weed Killer" and they all (attempt to) coordinate to whack him a good one.

[Magmarock]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

I'd say that this Entangle would have to be bought as Continuous in order for it to work the way the Player says it does, otherwise, anyone entering the area after the Entangle was created would only be walking on top of it. See, you cast a net and it falls to the ground... then you walk over it (or around it) but you aren't entangled in it.

 

Either that, or buy it as a Sticky Entangle. Then if an opponant attacks him and connects, the Entangle might work...

 

 

 

Mags

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

I'd say personal immunity is personal immunity - he shoots the entangle at his hex, and nothing happens. I'd say he's either entangled with the penalties and "benefits" involved, or he's not. Personal Immunity isn't "Get the Best of Both Worlds". Making an entangle in front of him and crouching down behind it for cover - fine. Trying to use it as a suit - not.

 

The other mentioned options are good, as is someone holding phase waiting for him to come out.

 

Move the fight away from his hidey-hole. Force him to keep catching up and using attacks to make new "bunkers". After a few times of this, the other PC's will likely start giving him flak.

 

TK. Grab the DCV 3 swamp-bundle and everything in it, toss it far, far, away.

[death tribble]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

Surely the Entangle has to be immune or invisible to a sense in order to let him hide in it ?

 

And to end his move in the entangle he has to be doing something like a move by to get out and back in one move. He can't leave the entangle then hit someone as that ends the go.

He could leave the entangle and hit the villain on one phase and then return to the entangle on the next.

 

Also are we talking about continuous as an advantage on the entangle as well ?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

I'd say it's legal. I would consider all of the following, however (nb: not all may be relevant with the specific chatracter; I haven't read the sheet since I don't use HD):

 

- someone targetting him inside the entangle and hitting rolls damage normally. The first 4 points of Stun and BOD are stopped by the DEF of the Entangle. The next few points will be stopped by the BOD of the entangle. The rest gets through. On average, the character is boosting his defenses by 8 or 9. The key here is that the Entangle and the character get hit at the same time - the entangle doesn't automatically block any attacks that fail to break it.

 

- someone missing the character would likely still hit the 1 hex area entangle, unless he missed by enough to miss the 3 DCV hex, just like someone firing on a character and kissing may hit the computer bank behind him.

 

- the entangle is an attack power. Using it on himself is an attack action, so he blows his phase creating, boosting or recrating the entangle.

 

- The general rule for Entangles is that, once no one is entangled, it vanishes. Of course, the character could create a barier with his Entangle instead.

 

- the character is immune to the entangle. That doesn't mean his powers can pass through, only that he can. I would rule any ranged attack launched from within the entangle either needs indirect or will strike the entangle on its way to its actual target.

 

- An offshoot of the fact entangle doesn't stop attacks entirely - an attack vs esoteric defenses (Mental, Power or Flash, for example) is not blocked in any way by the Entangle.

 

- The battle can move on. The villains need not take the character down to "win". Maybe their goal is to steal an object and escape. If the SwampBoy turtles, the villains can simply move away.

 

- What are Swampies' disadvantages? Does hiding in his entangle seem consistent with them? It's not something an Overconfident character seems likely to do, for example.

 

- It looks cowardly, so have it treated as cowardly. An annoying reporter can start referring to him as "Captain Turtle, retreating to his shell", and the name could stick. This is especially effective if the retreat means, say, protecting himself at the expense of teammates or innocent bystanders. Certainly, opponents csan make comments.

 

- I agree with the comments to consider whether remaining in the entangle affects DCV, but to me "Personal Immunity" means "no detrimental effects". Of course, if he has taken a disadvantage to reflect exceptional size or bulk, this may indoicate he doesn't fit neatly within the entangle's parameters.

 

- Opponents could delay until TurtleMan comes out of his shell, then fire. I would even allow them to Cover and take their shot when TurtleMan comes out. Since we'll all be firing at the same time, may as well Coordinate as well. A VIPER 5 team would be pretty effective with this setup, and the character did it to himself.

 

- consider your campaign guidelines. If you want to use the Entangle as extra defense, I still expect your defenses to fall in the campaign guidelines (mine are quite flexible, so I could go a bit higher than normal because the character can't effectively move in his shell)

 

- You mention Passing Strikes. Delaying to Martial Throw him seems like a great opportunity for the right opponent. Not only does he get to take velocity-based damage, he also is on the ground at half DCV, and doesn't make it back to his shell.

 

- Consider having other characters use the Entangle as cover, especially characters who are less vulnerable to Swampie's powers.

 

- One prior suggesting I really like is to Entangle the character inside his own Entangle.

 

- Finally, don't forget to have GlueGuy glue himself up with his 4d6, 4DEF PI, Sticky entangle before entering combat (since it's not AE, it will stay on the character). If this tactic is legit for a PC, it's also legit for NPC's.

 

 

I'm sure there are lots of other options I haven't considered to deal with this ability in-game.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

I think the power is legal, and I think imposing penalities on his DCV and so forth is not. I would not do that, and I would think poorly of a GM who did. Also, I'm assuming that Treant is using the Entangle to create a barrier, so there's no matter of the Entangle disappearing once Treant leaves it.

 

As for Psychological Limitations, that could go either way: Treant could have "shy" and "prefers to be hidden in the bushes" as psyche lims, in which case hiding in the bushes would be in character, wouldn't it? I'd still look at his psyche lims, but be aware that it may not give you the outcome you want.

 

The main thing is that it's un-heroic. I would mention that to the player.

 

That being said, there are numerous tactical options an opponent has against such a character. The simplest is just to shoot at him. Treant spends one of his actions to give himself defense against roughly 9d6 worth of damage, and a villain spends one of her phases to blast through it. From a strictly combat-effectiveness standpoint, I don't think this is abusive or unbalanced.

 

So I really don't think it's a problem, from that standpoint. My main problem with it would be that it seems un-heroic.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

Alright, what we have here is a large tree man with 9 points of MA. Using the PI Entangle is only half the problem.

 

One: Disallow Passing Strike. Where in the world did a treeman learn an advanced MA? Also he needs 10 points to buy MA.

 

Two: Turtling is unheroic because well supers eschew cover. Besides the Entangle is only going to to stop/slow down a 45 ap power. A single agent rapid firing will blow it down and waste Treeman's action.

 

Hawksmmor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

Besides the Entangle is only going to to stop/slow down a 45 ap power. A single agent rapid firing will blow it down and waste Treeman's action.

 

And why not rapid fire? Even if you miss the character, you'll pretty much guarantee his cover is gone, since you're unlikely to miss the hex the barier sits in. And you may get lucky and tag TreeMan two or three times (I wouldn't go for more than three shots, unless the OCV/DCV spread is significant).

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

I am so glad you agree with my assessment.

 

Hawksmoor

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

Abusive? Not really.

 

So, he Entangles himself ... which reduces him to DCV 0, prevents him from moving since the Entangle won't move wtih him. It means he can't attack at Range without an indirect effect. Unless it's opaque, he can't really hide in it flawlessly (a bonus to his Concealment, probably, but not Invisibility).

 

So, basically, if he does this in the middle of a fight, he's pretty much saying "I'm choosing not to fight", which isn't something his teammates are likely to respect, and means that your villains can largely ignore him until he decides to break cover.

[Theron]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

Seems like he needs a visit from The Criminal Cropduster! Hit him with an area-effect NND weed killer attack. That'll teach him the value of turtling.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

So' date=' he Entangles himself ... which reduces him to DCV 0...[/quote']

 

No; it's bought Personal Immunity. Treant does not suffer any of those effects.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

Seems like he needs a visit from The Criminal Cropduster! Hit him with an area-effect NND weed killer attack. That'll teach him the value of turtling.

 

You can do that, but if you bring out attacks which are obviously targeted at that character, you are vindicating the character's use of the Entangle in that way. I think that's a bad idea. It can easily lead to an escalation, and such contests rarely enhance the game.

 

Much better, in my opinion, to use ordinary attacks (which are, as has already been pointed out, as effective against this character as they are against any other), and point out to the player that hiding in the bushes is not heroic.

[Hermit]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

I'm wondering about the in character consequences of this as well.

 

While I would be cautious of having it crop too soon too strong, I can't help but think word might get out among the NPCs of the setting.

 

Comments like "timid" "fearful" or even "cowardly" might come up on news reports to describe the Plant man's tactics.

 

Villains might either taunt said plant man "Wuss!" or start planning in advance to use his predictability against him.

 

Now the player might not like this sort of thing, but the point is, the characters will be judged by their public and foe alike by their actions. People judge not just by results, but by the means you use to get to those results. The public will cheer the square jawed hero who bravely charges into danger to protect the innocent, they'll sneer at the plant thing that skulks back to protection to save his own hide.

 

 

At least that's how I see it.

[Troll]

Re: Entangle Abuse

 

It may be legal but I wouldn't allow this type of use on a regular basis. If he is using an entangle as primarily a defensive power, in my opinion, he should buy a force wall instead.