Infinite Crisis

[Chuckg]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Warren Ellis' response to a recent NYTimes article about the new direction of DC comics:

 

bad signal

WARREN ELLIS

 

The worst thing about the big allergy attacks now is that they depress my immune system and I pick up some disgusting bug a day later. My nose has stopped working. It is not funny.

 

No, really.

 

The New York Times arts section today has a large feature on the new DC, home of Grim Fin-Headed Arserape. Rather than Mark Waid's happy shiny take on it -- which is essentially that once they get through all this Dark Stuff things will be lovely again -- grim fin-headed Greg Rucka is heard to say that when the fans call it too dark, it means they're scared.

 

(And I'm sorry, Greg, but I cannot resist the comedy of applying the prefix "grim fin-headed" now.)

 

They're an odd mix, the four DC guiding lights of the moment. Grant's superhero stuff operates on what he *thought* Silver Age comics were like, not what they were *actually* like. Waid talks a good happy shiny game, but his work is often remarkably bitter. Geoff Johns comes off as the classic DC "respectful" guy. Greg, as a storyteller, is incredibly egoless -- it's almost impossible to find a signature to his writing. It's a far weirder mix than it looks at first glance.

 

I keep an eye on these things, when I have the time, because I want to be aware of what they'll do to the market as a whole. Their forthcoming 52-part weekly series may stretch a lot of budgets. And I need your money more. For cold remedies.

 

On another message board I frequent, a poster had a rather pithy response to this article. (mildly edited for language)

 

Newsflash kiddies: When Warren "Wildstorm" Ellis tells you your story is too dark' date=' YOUR STORY IS TOO [bLEEPING'] DARK!!!

[Theron]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I liked it. Then again, anything with Kal-L in it is OK by me, and it looks like he's going to do a whole King Arthur number of these snivelling brats and remind them of what heroism really is. One wonders what Conner Kent's reaction will be to seeing someone who actually wants to be Superboy flying around.

 

In fact, it put me in such a mood for Big Crossover Crisis stuff that I had to go buy the trade edition of the original Crisis. Now I have an overwhelming urge to run Reality Storm, but am going to have to wait for my game to actually get itself established before I launch something like that.

[CBikle]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Warren Ellis' response to a recent NYTimes article about the new direction of DC comics:

 

 

 

 

For a guy who says he's disinterested in super heroes, Ellis seems to spend a lot of time thinking about them. Plus, as usual, he misses the point:

 

My problem with the recent DC stuff, isn't that it's too dark.

 

It's too stupid.

 

Meltzer, Johns, et al have done a fantastic job executing some really dumb ideas (these guys could've made the "Spider-Clone" story arc work) that have led to the current loopy premise of superheroes having hissyfits with each other while the universe, literally, is falling apart around them.

 

Superman is even more whiny, judgemental and small-minded than a born-again Christian.

 

Batman, yet again, has let his "doomsday plan" fall into the wrong hands and is now indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands, but somehow, he still has the time to lecture Superman and Wonder Woman about "stepping over the line".

 

Really silly concepts, but with good dialogue and art.

[Balabanto]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Well, I think the idea here is that BATMAN, somehow, is starting to remember all of the events of Pre-crisis, or, that because he WAS mindwiped, that caused him to have memories about OTHER things that he wasn't supposed to know.

 

This would explain a lot of his behavior, as unlike everyone else, who became REALLY different, Bruce Wayne is still a NORMAL HUMAN. He's still the SAME GRIM GUY.

 

I can actually cite an example of why this makes sense. You're the grim character. Suddenly, everyone else is as grim as you are. "Hey, wait, I'm the creepy grim guy. What the HELL are you beacons of sweetness and light doing?"

 

Personal Example, from a Hero System Tournament final round that I participated in at GENCON a couple years ago.

 

Defender unloads a 12d6 EB on an agent, and the agent takes 8 out of 10 possible body AFTER defenses.

 

I'm playing Nighthawk. "Glad to see you're coming around to my way of thinking, Defender..."

 

But the difference is, this has gone so far BEYOND that point that Batman, pretty much, as a normal human, can't recognize these guys.

 

My problems here are all 4th wall problems. Earth 2 Superman comes back from beyond the fourth wall?

 

Would you like some crack with your crackhouse in the timestream? This is ridiculous.

 

The Spectre attacks Shazam, after being convinced that magic is evil? Only if the Rock of Eternity IS the crackhouse in the timestream.

 

When this is over, I REALLY, REALLY hope that Geoff Johns retires if there's even a single loophole, because if I was running this, the way I would do it would be to change the world THEN, so that it doesn't affect NOW.

 

Of course, to do this, you only need to do one thing.

 

Eliminate the deadly onus of...George Perez's Wonder Woman.

 

ALL Post Crisis On Infinite Earths problems can be directly traced back to George Perez's Wonder Woman.

[greypaladin_01]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

ALL Post Crisis On Infinite Earths problems can be directly traced back to George Perez's Wonder Woman.

 

 

Ok... I'll bite. How?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Ok... I'll bite. How?

Ditto. How does this affect Hawkman for instance?

 

Keith "Mr. Curious" Curtis

[zakueins]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Wow, so maybe I should get to dusting off the World's Finest/DC reboot comic scripts, for when the whole Infinite Crisis thing crashes and burns.

[Big Willy]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Well' date=' I think the idea here is that BATMAN, somehow, is starting to remember all of the events of Pre-crisis, or, that because he WAS mindwiped, that caused him to have memories about OTHER things that he wasn't supposed to know. [/quote']

 

"My god... Kathy?"

Batman, Planet Krypton 1999

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

 

 

- Infinite Crisis: Tied too heavily into the other minis and waaay too dependant on continuity and minutiae (and I'm a fan of that stuff) and there's no way it could possibly attract new readers. I don't think somebody new to DCU through Batman Begins or the JLU cartoon are going to know what to make of Batman's mindwipe and killer satellites or the golden-age, Earth 2 Superman.

 

 

 

Actually, the first comic book I picked up in YEARS was the Countdown to Infinite Crisis thing with Blue Beetle and I've been hooked since.

[CBikle]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Actually' date=' the first comic book I picked up in YEARS was the Countdown to Infinite Crisis thing with Blue Beetle and I've been hooked since.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but how familiar are you with DC and its history over the last 20+ years ?

 

Someone, who has never really read comics, but who's interest has been sparked by Batman Begins, would have no idea what to make of Countdown or the related miniseries. "Mindwipes ? Omacs ? Who is this other Superman and why is he old ? What the hell am I reading ?"

 

Some potential new readers might be intrigued by this stuff, but most would find it indecipherable.

[MitchellS]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Yeah, but how familiar are you with DC and its history over the last 20+ years ?

 

Someone, who has never really read comics, but who's interest has been sparked by Batman Begins, would have no idea what to make of Countdown or the related miniseries. "Mindwipes ? Omacs ? Who is this other Superman and why is he old ? What the hell am I reading ?"

 

Some potential new readers might be intrigued by this stuff, but most would find it indecipherable.

Basically it comes down to the ends justifying the means. New people are going to be confused but the majority of comic book readers are not new people. The DCU needs to be cleaned up and a certain amount of hope and heroism needs to be returned to it. Hopefully this complete series will do that.

[casualplayer]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

This thread seems kinda NGD, but still good. Let's see if we can steer it towards gaming.

 

With what has gone on, would you still allow Zatanna or Batman to be on the team? I would ask about WW also, but role-playing games are infamously tolerant of an occasional head being ripped off. Zee, admittedly a mixed-up kid with nigh-limitless power at the time, mind raped many people. This is a matter of course at Marvel (Professor X twice daily before breakfast) but almost exclusively villainous at DC. I don't care if the satellite JLA voted (should have been ANY member could have vetoed, not some stupid majority rule manure) Zatanna committed a crime that should be prosecutable. Don't your campaign worlds have psi-crime law?

 

Batman is criminally responsible for a mounting number of deaths. Rocket Red? Spoiler? We'll give him a pass on Overthrow under the Scourge Lameness Cleanup Amendment which the OMACs started out operating under. Why is he not in jail? He is unworkable as a hero and unpalatable as a teammate. He may be able to mount a good insanity plea but he is all about the premeditation. He has left his loaded guns, bought for home protection, lying out for the kids to find way too many times. Sure he's great for plot ideas but would you allow a PC to get away with this? Most of our game worlds have Mechanon being created by a PC a la Ultron; do you hold them responsible for what he does, and if not, why not?

 

WW has 10 pt Perk: Diplomatic Immunity-Ambassador of Sovereign Nation. She could just say "Because he displeased me" and everyone would have to just take it. Is the DC universe so dumb they don't ask where the video of her snapping Max Lord's neck came from? Typewriter experts were coming out of the woodwork for Bush's military shirking letter; where are Diana's defenders? The most justifiable of actions of late by the DC's Big 3 is the one catching the most grief. In game I would milk this for some soul-searching but Wonder Woman could stay and continue to play.

 

I am enjoying a good portion of this mega-series (Infinite Crisis, Identity Crisis, OMAC Project (sorta,) Villains United, Donna Troy) but the longer it goes on the more I feel like Maxwell Lord. I am watching gods at play in my (DC's) world without consequence.

[Blue]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I tend to think that Batman's @$$ would be bounced off of the JLA in my continuity. But the thing about him is he's one of those people you want to keep an eye on, and that's harder to do if you alienate him.

 

I've got Issue 1 now. I wasn't planning on picking it up, but I had a free morning and happened to be near a comic store, so....

 

I'll give my verdict later.

[Steve]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I am watching gods at play in my (DC's) world without consequence.

 

This statement does bring things back to the gaming table in a way. How much of an influence do "normal people" have in a campaign? How much influence should they have? Are they mere window dressing, while the gods in spandex go about their lives, play their ego games and have their battles with each other? Do the superpowered in your campaign really care about the non-superpowered, deep down inside? How does that DNPC of Mr. Superhero really feel about people with powers? For that matter, how does Mr. Superhero feel about the non-powered people in his circle of friends, family and acquaintances? Are they somehow "less real" than his buddies at the superteam HQ or those supervillains that keep showing up looking to break his jaw?

 

I've played in campaigns where the PCs tend to get bubbled up with only each other and fellow superhumans for the major interactions. How have others dealt with this in their campaigns?

[greypaladin_01]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Well I would say that it helps illustrate the only real flaw in the genre. Once there is a super-man, where does that leave the rest of us.

 

If you try and go with the most relistic approach to what would likely happen you end up with something that makes Marvel's "Days of Future Past" seem warm and fuzzy.

 

The opposite end of the specturm leaves you with normals humans being obsolete and easily ignored. Think the early issues of Kingdom Come but with less hope.

 

edit// I got jazzed up and hit send to soon

 

This leaves comics (and games) in a quandry. How do you keep things in a middle ground. Or even should you.

 

As far as I'm concerned. Infinite Crisis is an attempt to clean house by DC not bring on new readers, much as the original Crisis was. In the "one year later" storyline that will follow. THEN books will target new readers hard. Right now however DC is attempting to bring attention to all the flaws that have crept into (or placed in with bad writing) all the major characters over the last few decades. With luck in the aftermath we will have a DC universe that can go back to having humans (and robots, aliens) that while they may still have flaws are at their core heroic.

[Blue]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Well, just finished reading it. I think the closing page was very good. It hints at the end of the darkness that the publishers talk about. They made the book dark and nasty and then dropped some golden age on us. I like that.

 

As for the rest, I had nothing invested with the characters who died and that typically makes easier to see them killed off, you'd think. But It really did in most cases feel gratuitous.

 

And that's the problem with making a book with a scope this big. It's just NOT possible to make every death have a deep meaning. They're fire-and-forget deaths. And that's too bad.

 

For the most part, I like it. But the true test of anything like this is how it ends up. And I sure hope issue two has more hope and less whining and finger-pointing.

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Yeah, but how familiar are you with DC and its history over the last 20+ years ?

 

Someone, who has never really read comics, but who's interest has been sparked by Batman Begins, would have no idea what to make of Countdown or the related miniseries. "Mindwipes ? Omacs ? Who is this other Superman and why is he old ? What the hell am I reading ?"

 

Some potential new readers might be intrigued by this stuff, but most would find it indecipherable.

 

All I really knew of DC was the old Batman cartoon, and the novelizations of Batman and Superman's "deaths" when I was like 12.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Zee' date=' admittedly a mixed-up kid with nigh-limitless power at the time, mind raped many people. This is a matter of course at Marvel (Professor X twice daily before breakfast) but almost exclusively villainous at DC. I don't care if the satellite JLA voted (should have been ANY member could have vetoed, not some stupid majority rule manure) Zatanna committed a crime that should be prosecutable. Don't your campaign worlds have psi-crime law?[/quote']

I continue to contend that the whole mind-wipe is a non-issue that is only being debated because the writers wanted some controversy. As you noted, it is a common occurence at Marvel, and has been used many, many times in DC. Most notable example would be the "Super-Hypnosis-Kiss" from Superman II.

Actually, given what usually happens to villains who discover Batman's identity, a mind-wipe could be seen as extremely merciful.

 

Keith "look into my eyes..." Curtis

[HeroGM]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

true cover for issue #2

[Theron]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I continue to contend that the whole mind-wipe is a non-issue that is only being debated because the writers wanted some controversy. As you noted, it is a common occurence at Marvel, and has been used many, many times in DC. Most notable example would be the "Super-Hypnosis-Kiss" from Superman II.

Actually, given what usually happens to villains who discover Batman's identity, a mind-wipe could be seen as extremely merciful.

 

Keith "look into my eyes..." Curtis

 

Hell, IIRC, back in the 70s, Superman used "Kryptonian Hypnosis" on a couple of occasions to cover up for lapses in his secret ID.

[Chuckg]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I might point out that despite the writers' insane contention that Batman is somehow responsible for the deaths of the OMAC Project, he isn't.

 

The only part of it that Batman built was Brother Eye, the surveillance satellite -- and he didn't even make it an AI, it spontaneously 'awakened' and went rogue. He did *not* build the OMAC nanotech -- that was Lexcorp, using reverse-engineered B-13 technology. He did *not* enslave innocent people into wearing the nanites -- that was Maxwell Lord, using the Lexcorp tech. And he did *not* program Brother Eye into being a psychotic meta-hating reincarnation of Bastion.

 

And yet, to force the plot through, they pretend it's all Batman's fault and none of the rest happened, despite THE OMAC PROJECT limited series being devoted to the specific purpose of showing all this happening.

 

It makes no damn consistent sense, even with /itself/. It's horribly sloppy writing.

[casualplayer]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I might point out that despite the writers' insane contention that Batman is somehow responsible for the deaths of the OMAC Project, he isn't.

 

The only part of it that Batman built was Brother Eye, the surveillance satellite -- and he didn't even make it an AI, it spontaneously 'awakened' and went rogue. He did *not* build the OMAC nanotech -- that was Lexcorp, using reverse-engineered B-13 technology. He did *not* enslave innocent people into wearing the nanites -- that was Maxwell Lord, using the Lexcorp tech. And he did *not* program Brother Eye into being a psychotic meta-hating reincarnation of Bastion.

 

And yet, to force the plot through, they pretend it's all Batman's fault and none of the rest happened, despite THE OMAC PROJECT limited series being devoted to the specific purpose of showing all this happening.

 

It makes no damn consistent sense, even with /itself/. It's horribly sloppy writing.

 

He didn't make the bullets, just the gun. He put it up on a really high shelf so he shouldn't have had to put a trigger guard on it. He had the best of intentions and only had it for home security.

 

If Batman'd stop trying to save points by buying this crap Independent DC would be a much happier place. Frickin' Munchkin.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

With the events of the "Return of Donna Troy"' date=' it's likely that Donna may take up Harbinger's role, as she can access Harbinger's files and such [/quote']

 

 

What ever happened to Harbinger, anyway? For that matter, what ever happened to Pariah?

[SatinKitty]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I don't do Comic Books. Cocaine is cheaper.

[HeroGM]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

What ever happened to Harbinger' date=' anyway? For that matter, what ever happened to Pariah?[/quote']

 

Harbinger was killed by Parademons/Darksied in Superman/Batman during the Supergirl storyline, Pariah was recently killed in one of the mini-series/crossovers that lead into IC