DreadDomain Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist My vote : 1. Richard Dragon 2. Lady Shiva 3. Batgirl (current) 4. Deathstroke 5. Batman 6. Kobra 7. Mr. Terrific (current) 8. Bronze Tiger 9. Ra's Al Ghul 10. Bane Again, based on skill. Bane is more of a brawler than a refined martial artist but his abilities are right up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Well this is interesting. Shiva's lead is evaporating with every ballot. Richard Dragon missed one ballot and that may very well have been the difference maker, thus far. He has one vote that is <5 and the majority of the 1st place votes. He's trailing by 5. Black Canary and Conner Hawke are tied at 71 points. #9 Nightwing is 30 pts ahead of #10 Wildcat FlameBird has the least points for someone who's made the most ballots. She's never been ranked higher than 10th place. Mr Terrific, on the other hand while making only 7 ballots has 36 pts, he's averaging 5+, not bad for such a new character. Keep voting as long as you like (once per poster though) I don't know if I'll close the polls ever. but at the end of the month I'll post the "Winners" and list all the fighters and their places. BTW - Deathstroke and WonderWoman, both recieving votes; are inelligable. Here's the current top 10 Lady Shiva Richard Dragon Batgirl III Batman Bronze Tiger Black Canary Conner Hawke Nightwing Wildcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Crossposted from the Marvel Thread. It'd be interesting to do a matchup based on the current top 10s between DC and Marvel. Lady Shiva vs Shang-Chi Richard Dragon vs Captain America Batgirl III vs Iron Fist Batman vs Black Panther Bronze Tiger vs Daredevil Black Canary vs Elektra Conner Hawke vs Moon Knight Nightwing vs Mantis Wildcat vs Black Widow I like a lot of these matchups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerhouse Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Based on a batman - nightwing - green arrow crossover years back, it's been suggested that Batman actually tends to hold back when fighting Lady Shiva. He warned Connor that because he managed to battle Shiva and survive, he'd attract unwanted attention from the martial arts circuit... And we all know how honest Bats is... that's a lousy retcon. Batman never holds back, especially against a stone-cold killer like Shiva who will take your head off if you're a step slow. It's just a step to make him a Batgod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Why would Batman hold back on aynone? Especially his sidekicks? Does he want them mostly trained? Does he think if he goes easy on them the crooks will? More evidence that Bruce is getting dementia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oruncrest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I *have* read it' date=' and Batman went down on the first blow.[/quote'] Ok. So, was there anything more to the 'fight' other than Ben saying, "Me Bronze Tiger." Pow!!! "You unconscious!"? Or Batman had a better estimation of his foe than he did in the first fight and didn't walk into a knock-out punch. If you take this line of argument, then you are admitting that the only reason Batman lost the first time is 'cause of surprise advantage... i.e. Bronze Tiger weren't really *that* good. Which only reinforces my point anyway. Let me put it this way, Chuckg... Batman should not get one-punched by any of the other MAs on this list! Not Bronze Tiger! Not Richard Dragon! Not Ranma Saotome (at least, not at the beginning)! And sure as Hail Not Hal Frickin' Jordan! If Ben one-punched Bats then something was wrong with Batman, not Bronze Tiger. And no, I don't buy the idea that Batman has improved since then since he & Richard Dragon fought to a standstill a couple years earlier in Brave & the Bold #132. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist So, from what I'm reading here it sounds like Cassandra "I'm Batgirl" Cain is a Mary Sue. I'm just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist So, from what I'm reading here it sounds like Cassandra "I'm Batgirl" Cain is a Mary Sue. I'm just sayin'. For Batman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist So' date=' from what I'm reading here it sounds like Cassandra "I'm Batgirl" Cain is a Mary Sue.[/quote'] She lacks the Mary Sue qualities of being better than everyone at everything else. Outside of martial arts, she varies from 'average' to 'learning disabled'. She's just a very specialized character. Champs equivalent -- the person who dumped almost all of their character points into DEX, CV, martial maneuvers, and martial arts powers... and then came up with a backstory that made it believable. Besides, the chief defense against accusations of Mary Suedom is quality writing, and God knows Puckett's BATGIRL run had /that/ in spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Looking through the old Superman pages, is I Ching still in DC continuity? He was a mystic martial artist based off Marvel's Ancient One. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Never heard of the dude, so probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superskrull Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Never heard of the dude' date=' so probably not.[/quote'] He was the "wizened sage" style sensei to Wonder Woman in her depowered storyline in pre-Crisis. You remember, back when she walked the earth like Quai Chang Kaine, helping people learn valuable life lessons and such. IIRC, he and Diana had popped up in Superman's comics during the "sand Superman" storyline just after all the Green K on Earth had been accidentally transmuted to iron. Something about an alien from Quarrm or some such. I hunted this up on the net for you. http://theages.superman.ws/History/SandSaga.php Truly the 70's have cast a great and terrible pall upon many an iconic character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oruncrest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Created by Denny O'Neil, I Ching was the 'Inscrutiable Martial Arts Master' back when Wonder Woman was trying to steal Emma Peel's gig (Diana had lost her powers at the time). When Denny took over the writing of the Superman books and temporarily depowered Supes, he brought I Ching over to help Supes get his powers back, then take them away again when it became apparent that Supes had suffered a brain injury while he was powerless and needed to have doctors operate on him, then helped Supes out while he and the 'Sand Superman' were throwing down with some mental mumbo-jumbo. I don't think I've heard a peep from him since WW got her powers back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Thanks all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Ok. So' date=' was there anything more to the 'fight' other than Ben saying, "Me Bronze Tiger." [b']Pow!!![/b] "You unconscious!"? Let me put it this way, Chuckg... Batman should not get one-punched by any of the other MAs on this list! Not Bronze Tiger! Not Richard Dragon! Not Ranma Saotome (at least, not at the beginning)! And sure as Hail Not Hal Frickin' Jordan! If Ben one-punched Bats then something was wrong with Batman, not Bronze Tiger. And no, I don't buy the idea that Batman has improved since then since he & Richard Dragon fought to a standstill a couple years earlier in Brave & the Bold #132. I completely disagree of course. People like Shiva, Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger have been dedicating thier entire lives to martial arts. If there's one thing they know it's how to take out an opponent in the most efficient manner possible. Batman may know martial arts but he's not dedicated to thier practise in the same fashion. Between his crimefighting, Wayne Industries and the pretense of a social life he's required to have as Bruce Wayne, he simply doesn't have the time. As for the fight with Bronze Tiger, Batman had arrived on the scene. The assassins went in to get Kathy Kane as Bronze Tiger went to hold off Batman. There was no surprise attack, Batman knew that Bronze Tiger was there and both sides were ready. Batman advances and Bronze Tiger gets a kick to the gut that knocks Batman out. Now given that Bronze Tiger has always been drawn as a rather buff fellow and his mastery of kung fu, it's not illogical that a shot to the solar plexus [which is a part of the body located around the stomach] could knock Batman out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist .... Batman advances and Bronze Tiger gets a kick to the gut that knocks Batman out. Now given that Bronze Tiger has always been drawn as a rather buff fellow and his mastery of kung fu' date=' it's not illogical that a shot to the solar plexus [which is a part of the body located around the stomach'] could knock Batman out. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 99.9% of the forum participants know where and what the solar plexus is. It was a parenthetical that comes across as condescending, kinda like being told what 5 * 6 is. Sadly, since the baby did get thrown out with the bathwater, if the story happened pre-Crisis it probably didn't 'happen.' Damn shame, but it's even more shaky than comparing high school stats to predict pro-level performance. However, if I ever get off my duff and write him up, my HERO Batman would be prone to the 'lose the first occasionally, never lose again' lifestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 99.9% of the forum participants know where and what the solar plexus is. It was a parenthetical that comes across as condescending, kinda like being told what 5 * 6 is. Sadly, since the baby did get thrown out with the bathwater, if the story happened pre-Crisis it probably didn't 'happen.' Damn shame, but it's even more shaky than comparing high school stats to predict pro-level performance. However, if I ever get off my duff and write him up, my HERO Batman would be prone to the 'lose the first occasionally, never lose again' lifestyle. My bad, it wasn't meant to be condescending at all. As for the story not happening Post Crisis, it's been stated that the story HAS happened post Crisis. It has been stated in books authorized by DC comics that the story did take place Post Crisis. Most of Batman's history made it in to the Post Crisis universe untouched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Actually, most of Batman's Pre-Crisis history involves guys like the Ten-Eyed Man and the Crime Doctor, who most definitely did *NOT* cross over. And even those who did cross over (like Catwoman) all got rewritten backstories. (Hell, Selina's had /several/ rewritten backstories, all of which mutually contradict.) Dude, nothing from Pre-Crisis can be presumed to exist in Post-Crisis, let alone exist in identical form, unless specifically stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist My bad, it wasn't meant to be condescending at all. As for the story not happening Post Crisis, it's been stated that the story HAS happened post Crisis. It has been stated in books authorized by DC comics that the story did take place Post Crisis. Most of Batman's history made it in to the Post Crisis universe untouched. How can a story where Batman is rescuing Kathy Kane (who has no post-Crisis existence) have survived into post-Crisis continuity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist How can a story where Batman is rescuing Kathy Kane (who has no post-Crisis existence) have survived into post-Crisis continuity? No, Batwoman has no post-Crisis existence. Kathy Kane on the other hand was still around to be killed by Bronze Tiger. She's one of those few characters who's actually stayed dead you see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist And if they changed that big a chunk of the story, how can you be sure that they didn't change anything else? You are arguing that a fight would still carry over, blow-for-blow, from Pre-Crisis Continuity, when huge chunks of the personal history and backstories for at least two of the three characters involved didn't? Unreasonable presumption. That Batman and the Bronze Tiger met Post-Crisis, established. That Kathy Kane died there, established. Exact details of event after the Crisis, anything but established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Hey, where does the Question rank on the list? Thought he was supposed to be pretty good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist The Question is very very good, but I don't know enough to say *how* good. I'm 99% sure he's below the Black Canary/Bronze Tiger level, but he's definitely way above the Huntress level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist So, from what I'm reading here it sounds like Cassandra "I'm Batgirl" Cain is a Mary Sue. I'm just sayin'. After reading interviews with her creator Kelley Puckett, I'm fairly sure thats how he invisioned her. When the gist of the interview was "I made this girl to kick everyones ***. Doesn't matter who it is, she can kick their ***." then you have to wonder. Later writers did do some good stuff with her though, so I won't complain much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Hey, Puckett did some great stuff with her. Dude was bein' sarcastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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