Wanderer Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age If you like Ultimate Universe, I bet you are going to like Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme v 2.0. It has most of the same main inspiration and themes, fundamentally, only somewhat more grim and more into the conspiracy and political skullduggery. Only instead of "new, improved, and hip" versions of classic Marvel icones, you get very loose homages to the JLA, turned out in a very "realistic" universe. IMO, so far the best realization of the old "Superman-level metas walk among us in a realistic world" idea. It is rather grim, in places, and has reasonable doses of bloodshed, cynicism, and sleaziness, but here they do not feel as forced as in Authority. So I respectfully suggest Supreme Power/Squadron to the list of Iron Age icons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age The best Iron Age comics imo are Miracleman, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Marshal Law (especially the first 6 issues - they're perfect), Astro City, Supreme, Alan Moore's Judgement Day and his short run on Youngblood. Though not in the same league, I'm a big fan of Zenith, Byrne's She-Hulk, Flex Mentallo, Busiek's runs on Avengers and Defenders, Atomic City Tales, Alias and Eightball, if it counts as Iron Age. The worst are generally the late 80s/early 90s plotless ultraviolence and the later shock tactics that Moore satirises in Supreme with his reference to the 'Omnidog rape scene'. Specific examples of the former include X-Force and Youngblood. The latter includes everything written by Mark Millar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age So here's what I'm getting from y'all... yeah, except for me. I hated just about everything on both lists save for issues 1-12 of Athority, Planetary, and early Stormwatch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age So here's what I'm getting from y'all... Good Iron Age titles: DK Returns Watchmen Miracleman/Marvelman Daredevil (Miller's run) The Authority (Ellis' run) Batman: The Killing Joke Stormwatch Ultimates Planetary Albion St. George/Dr. Zero/Powerline Marshal Law (sometimes) Judge Dred (sometimes) Rising Stars Hellblazer Sandman Hitman Sleeper Punisher (Max) Wildcats Bad Iron Age Brat Pack Maximortal Authority (post-Ellis) Wanted Marvel Zombies To the "bad" list I'd add a lot of what came out of Leifield's Xtreme Studios in the early-mid 90s -- Youngblood, Bloodstrike, OtherRandomComicWithTheWordBloodInTheName, etc. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that perhaps a lot of the Iron Age hate stems from the drek that Image Comics put out when they first started up -- that stuff sold a lot of issues, got a lot of press, and had a lot of fan support, so a part of me suspects that when someone says "Iron Age" many people hear "Youngblood" and think, "That stuff is crap." What is so bad about Marvel Zombies? I thought the mini-series and their appearance in UFF to be some of the best stuff in recent memory, and now that Ultimate Dr. Doom is going to kick their azzes and come back even more of a badazz than he showed himself to be in the last issue of UFF that he was in, I can't see how the series is a negative. Although: Even I found them eating Galactus to be a little over the top. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squall Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I didn't mind Wanted, actually. Once. Knowing what I was about to read, and not expecting an actual comic book about superheroes. It's like walking into a movie theatre, really. If you go in expecting the wrong title, of course you'll be disappointed and hateful. If I'd thought Wanted was going to be just another TPB about comic characters, or whatever, I'd've been pretty hateful by the time I put it down, too. But I'd heard enough about it that I figured it was worth a Barnes and Noble gift card, and got a little chuckle out of how hard the author was trying, and now it's back on my shelf. *shrugs* No harm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age All that in one issue. Say what you will about the Iron Age (and I'll agree with much of it), but you could never get away with that kind of sloppy writing today. __________________ bigdamnhero I completely disagree The Iron age is all about inconsistancey,total lack of respect or understanding for established characters stupid heros and sloppy writing piled on top of anti heroic bleakness. I'll go away now like others before me the iron ages enrages me too much to politely talk about. Lets just say that until they snap out of it this reader who started in 1965 will give his favorite genre a skip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age All that in one issue. Say what you will about the Iron Age (and I'll agree with much of it), but you could never get away with that kind of sloppy writing today. __________________ bigdamnhero I completely disagree The Iron age is all about inconsistancey,total lack of respect or understanding for established characters stupid heros and sloppy writing piled on top of anti heroic bleakness. I'll go away now like others before me the iron ages enrages me too much to politely talk about. Lets just say that until they snap out of it this reader who started in 1965 will give his favorite genre a skip. Yeah, but couldn't you say we've replaced it with other forms of sloppy writing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Yeah' date=' but couldn't you say we've replaced it with other forms of sloppy writing?[/quote'] That's actually pretty funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age All that in one issue. Say what you will about the Iron Age (and I'll agree with much of it)' date=' but you could never get away with that kind of sloppy writing today.[/quote'] Yeah, now we have Marvel Civil War. A completely different kind of sloppy writing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age actually you Quoted what Iquoted form bigdamnhero. Civil War is exactly the modern style of sloppy writing I was talking about walking all over established characters to tell the story they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Sorry about that, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Sorry about that' date=' I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes.[/quote'] No problem. I just had a moment of utter horror that people thought I approved Iron age style writing.( you know heart pumping, staggering around, vision blurring but no problem) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I completely disagree The Iron age is all about inconsistancey' date='total lack of respect or understanding for established characters stupid heros and sloppy writing piled on top of anti heroic bleakness.[/quote'] In terms of inconsistancy with previously-established canon/characters, I absolutely agree. Not that consistancy has ever been a top priority in comics... but that's a different rant. But at least they're usually reasonably consistant within an individual issue. Now I don't read a lot of Iron Age stuff (for reasons already stated), and most of what I do read tend to be referrals from friends with good taste, so my sample is probably skewed quality-wise. But still, none of the comics I've read in the last twenty years have had the kind of sloppy "I totally pulled that out of my ***" feel that many Silver-to-early-Bronze comics used to have. At its best, the Silver Age had a sort of wacky Anything's Possible feel that was fun and silly. But an awful lot of it was just plain silly. There's a fine line between Anything's Possible and Anything Goes. Part of it may simply be that back then comics were written primarily for kids, whereas today they're targetted primarily at adults. (I sure don't remember seeing car ads in comics when I was a kid!) I'm not defending the Iron Age. I'm just saying I think some of us remember a lot of the "Old Classics" as being better written than they really were. Yeah' date=' but couldn't you say we've replaced it with other forms of sloppy writing?[/quote'] Yeah, that's probably the most accurate way of saying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age A good friend of mine recently downloaded a bunch of the old Mighty Thor, Namor, Captain America cartoons from the 60's. Man, I can't get over how raw and conanical they are! It was as if the comics were simply brought to life on the television... whereas these days, superhero cartoons are empty shells of the characters and plots, packaged to be kewl, but lacking in any substance. I am a supporter of the new Justice League animated serious, however. These stories have a living quality I respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age A good friend of mine recently downloaded a bunch of the old Mighty Thor, Namor, Captain America cartoons from the 60's. Man, I can't get over how raw and conanical they are! It was as if the comics were simply brought to life on the television... whereas these days, superhero cartoons are empty shells of the characters and plots, packaged to be kewl, but lacking in any substance. I am a supporter of the new Justice League animated serious, however. These stories have a living quality I respect. I wish the TAS stuff was the official comic universe myself. They get the souls of the characters much better than the current comics writers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teh bunneh Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I wish the TAS stuff was the official comic universe myself. They get the souls of the characters much better than the current comics writers Couldn't agree more. Even the changes that they made to the characters (Brainiac's origin, f'rinstance) flowed organically in the series and made perfect sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I wish the TAS stuff was the official comic universe myself. They get the souls of the characters much better than the current comics writers Fully! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmetahuman Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I'm wondering if it's something about television writers making more money than comics writers. Did the comics lose their best talent to television? I don't know if the cartoons are using writers who used to be comics writers, or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandi Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age While it gives me the uncomfortable feeling of being pro-censorship, I wonder if the restraints placed on US TV animation (these shows are ostensibly aimed at kids, after all) keeps the writers from taking the easy 3DGY solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I think it has more to do with the TAS writers and show runners actually enjoying the Superhero genre. Millar and company just don't (for citations, I point to Miller, Veitch, and Millar's interviews and much of the subtext of their bodies of work). If you love the genre and you're a reasonably good writer, it will show through. If you have contempt for the genre and see your work as a subtle or not-so-subtle deconstruction of the genre's flaws, that will show through as well. Personally, I'm sick of deconstruction. Enough. Yes, superhero comics are escapist genre fiction; That's true of almost all genre fiction, including "Iron Age" comics. Yes, comics were originally written for a young audience and eventually locked into stories for children; a fair point, and painfully obvious, so why keep beating it to death? Yes, Comic's Code superheroes were often emotionally unrealistic; creating more emotionally "realistic" characters does not mean writing everyone as borderline psychotics. Some real people manage to get through wars, disasters and even daily crises and still remain able to hold down a job, raise a family, and build friendships. Maybe "realistic" Iron Age comics writers ought to meet a few. OK, enough ranting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted January 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Has anyone here read "The Pro"? Its a parody but it seems to sum up the attitude some "Iron Age" writers have about the genre and its fans for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey88 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I miss idealism. I miss good guys beating the bad guys not by sinking to their level, but by rising above it. I miss lightheartedness and humor! I think that too many writers today look at the lines that really shouldn't be crossed, and piss on them simply because they want to buck the establishment or create simply for shock value. Show some respect for the characters and the readers, already! I think it's a sad day when Spider-Man has his eye ripped out of his socket and eaten by the bad guy in a mainstream title -"Adult" this is not. If I wanted "Saw: The Comic Book", I'd - hell, I'd probably decide it was time for me to stop reading comics! My two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I think it's a sad day when Spider-Man has his eye ripped out of his socket and eaten by the bad guy in a mainstream title -"Adult" this is not. My two cents. WTH? When did THAT happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zane_Marlowe Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age During "The Other" series. Of course, he's fine now, because no one could screw with continuity so much as giving any one of our main darling heroes something like a ragged scar that went from their chest to their scalp, or maimed them with lost limbs, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandi Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Re: The downsides of the Iron Age And if I remember right, in that same story arc Spidey later pounced on the guy who took his eye out and ATE HIS BRAINS. And no, this was not part of the Marvel Zombies thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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