Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

why don't they just do their job and beat up bad guys?

 

This begs the question:

What would be the job description and job qualifications for being a member of the Champions or any other major superhero team?

[Cygnia]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

60 words per nanosecond?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Yeah' date=' right. If you're supposedly not responding to me or addressing what I said don't quote me when you give your lectures.[/quote']Any public discussion should be considered just that, IMO... a public discussion. Quoting another post merely indicates that the "speaker" is saying something that relates to the text of that post in some way. Unless a poster is addressed by name, or a discussion is taken offline to PM, I think it's safest to assume that anything posted in a thread -- whether in reply to another post or not -- is intended for the general readership of the thread, and not aimed at any particular poster.

[nexus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Any public discussion should be considered just that' date=' IMO... a [b']public[/b] discussion. Quoting another post merely indicates that the "speaker" is saying something that relates to the text of that post in some way. Unless a poster is addressed by name, or a discussion is taken offline to PM, I think it's safest to assume that anything posted in a thread -- whether in reply to another post or not -- is intended for the general readership of the thread, and not aimed at any particular poster.

 

I don't see it that way and the content of the post in question certainly read as directed to me. Even a public discussion you can speak address yourself to a specific person and if you quote someone, to my mind, you're addressing them unless you explicitly say otherwise.

 

But this situation is partially my fault. I know I don't get along with the board member in question and had him on IL but recently took him off. That was a mistake on my part so I'll say nothing more about it. I apologize for derailing that thread with it in the first place.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Even a public discussion you can speak address yourself to a specific person and if you quote someone' date=' to my mind, you're addressing them unless you explicitly say otherwise.[/quote']Okay, but be aware that many (most?) people do not assume that quoting an earlier post means they're replying personally to that poster. So it's probably a good idea to try not to take it for granted that they are.

[Narratio]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Back on thread...

 

Unless you insist on having a secret identity and try to conceal your abilities I'd asume there would always be somebody looking for your help doing something or other.

 

In which case, why not help out? I think that was the whole idea behind the 'patrolling the streets' idea. Deliberately going out, not only to stop crimes in progress but being visible and so preventing them. And then, seeing somebody in need, just helping out. Kittens in trees, little old ladies crossing roads, guy with a stalled car. Being helpful inspires, in a low level way, others to be helpful.

 

Ah me, the Silver Age...

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

The difference between the moods in most IA settings and, for example, the DC universe is that Wildstorm superheroes aren't protected from certain consequences by authorial fiat. The Justice League, the Avengers, etc will find a way to beat the bad guys without killing because the writers say so.

 

It would be impossible to never even accidentally kill even a thug. People fall down and hit their heads, have heart attacks, and stumble over rails, stray shots ricochet or blow through buildings in the case of extremely powerful supers. There would be bystanders injured and killed. This is depicted more in "Iron Age" settings like Wildstorm and The Ultimates. This isn't to say there is something wrong with writer's fiat or genre tropes. It's what drives fiction and I can enjoy both types of stories.

 

And there is the flipside and where it started to go downhill (and fast) in The Authority was when they started becoming gleeful, even eager killers that took joy in it. It wasn't a grim necessity or the wages of combat anymore. That and they declared themselves judge, jury and executioner, using their powers with lethal intent against targets that posed no threat to them. Yes, most of them were scum that would have gotten death sentences several times over if they were fairly tried but they never got that chance which is were things went very wrong in The Authority. It could be considered the slippery slope but, honestly, I think it was just looking for shock value and cheap thrills. Shame too, since there was allot of potential in that series But it became essentially superpowered gore/revenge porn with some political trappings.

This is pretty much the reason I hated Marvel's Civil War and the whole SHRA thing: the complete 180-ing of fiats and tropes.

 

Or, as a friend put it: "A bad guy blew up & killed a few hundred people in a town in Connecticut. In a world where numerous cities -- including Middletown, AZ (5,000 killed by the Leader) and Washington, DC (millions killed by Kang) -- have been destroyed & their populace killed by super humans, this was evidently a catalytic event. Definitely not the actions of a government afraid of powerful beings beyond their control. And, even though the Pro-Reg side acquired lots of new powers to do things they've always wanted to do, it's not a power grab."

[nexus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

This is pretty much the reason I hated Marvel's Civil War and the whole SHRA thing: the complete 180-ing of fiats and tropes.

 

Or, as a friend put it: "A bad guy blew up & killed a few hundred people in a town in Connecticut. In a world where numerous cities -- including Middletown, AZ (5,000 killed by the Leader) and Washington, DC (millions killed by Kang) -- have been destroyed & their populace killed by super humans, this was evidently a catalytic event. Definitely not the actions of a government afraid of powerful beings beyond their control. And, even though the Pro-Reg side acquired lots of new powers to do things they've always wanted to do, it's not a power grab."

 

I had a big problem with this part of it too (among allot of other things. It didn't make sense without more explanation. I'd be willing to accept that there was, for example, Skrull manipulation going on behind the scenes, but without something acting as more of push it just hamhanded considering the history of the Marvel universe. BFE, Connecticut just wasn't that big a deal relative to some of the other disasters that have went by without setting off the same reaction.

[assault]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

But this situation is partially my fault. I know I don't get along with the board member in question and had him on IL but recently took him off.

 

Ah. Sorry, I didn't realise this. I'll refrain from responding to nexus' posts from now on, since it seems to annoy him.

[Kal'El Wayne]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

DC characters spent a lot of time doing non-combat "good deeds". This was especially true of Superman' date=' and, say, less true for Batman[/quote']

Actually, Batman, as Bruce Wayne and head of WayneCorp/WayneTech, was massively influential in not only donating massive, regular amounts to charity, just like his Dad did before, during and after the depression, but also in getting every other rich, legitimate businessman to donate. That it forced mob bosses to deplete their funds to keep up appearances was a mildly useful side effect.

 

Come to think of it, in a JLA fight with a team of supervillains, Batman assured a victory by bribing the most powerful supervillain. The bribe was a blank check signed by one of Batman's 'civilian agents' (Bruce Wayne), made out to the orphanage where the supervillain grew up. Ironic, since Bruce being orphaned was his superhero catalyst.

[The Weapon]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

60 words per nanosecond?

 

Must be able to keep accurate minutes of what was said and thought at the meeting.

[The Weapon]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

 

One obvious reason is because they possess no greater than normal ability to combat these allegedly larger issues. Or at least, no greater than any other celebrity you might care to mention. Another is that not only are they better equipped to fight crime (and alien invasions and other things that can actually be fought), but crime is a much larger issue in a comic book reality than it is in ours. In comic-book land 9/11 would have been tuesday, a bad guy scheme chiefly notably for it's extraordinarily low-tech unpowered nature. The world would not have been all that shocked by it. Bigger things would have happened in recent memory and far bigger things have threatened to happen.

 

"Mr. President, we'd like to talk to you about funds provided to your third world nation for sanitation that somehow manage to end up at your brother-in-law's construction company despite it not apparently doing any work. Stop it or we will beat the hell out of you, destroy every asset your brother in law or you own (except for the plane, which will be given to the Royal Flying Doctors Service) and then take out your government's arsenals so that you can be thrown out of the country. Message ends."

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

You might ask another question: Why don't the Champions do more good?

 

Why do they spend so much of their time dealing with crime when they really ought to combating larger issues?

global education

global environmental issues

global poverty

inequality

war

homelessness

hopelessness

mental illness

hunger

extremism

discrimination

 

Which is where the supergeniuses come in. Marvel actually has (or had) people like Tony Stark and Reed Richards developing technologies to help huge swathes of people out -- plans to increase the fertility of drought-stricken lands like Somalia, etc. etc. Part of the problem, however, is that social ills cannot be instantly addressed unless there is a break point. Magically feeding everyone leads to even more violence, as groups fight over who has control over the magic gizmo that feeds everyone. However, if everyone is starving, making certain everyone is fed equally leads to changes at the core sociological level.

 

Selecting the 'break points' is the trick of conquering the world. That and having both the technology and the money invested...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

 

"Mr. President, we'd like to talk to you about funds provided to your third world nation for sanitation that somehow manage to end up at your brother-in-law's construction company despite it not apparently doing any work. Stop it or we will beat the hell out of you, destroy every asset your brother in law or you own (except for the plane, which will be given to the Royal Flying Doctors Service) and then take out your government's arsenals so that you can be thrown out of the country. Message ends."

 

"Captain Stupendous, I've received a threat against my person from The Zoidbergs. You and your team go kick their tuckuses. Tuckusi. Whatever."

 

"SIR YES SIR!!" *flies off*

 

Always a dangerous step when you start threatening nation superpowers -- especially ones that may have supers of their own. Far better to develop your abilities so that YOU can be the ones getting the grants and jobs and such, then take them over -- and get the job done yourself. (Tends to be secondary to the usual 'saving the universe' thing, I admit...)

[Vulcan]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Actually, Batman, as Bruce Wayne and head of WayneCorp/WayneTech, was massively influential in not only donating massive, regular amounts to charity, just like his Dad did before, during and after the depression, but also in getting every other rich, legitimate businessman to donate. That it forced mob bosses to deplete their funds to keep up appearances was a mildly useful side effect.

 

Come to think of it, in a JLA fight with a team of supervillains, Batman assured a victory by bribing the most powerful supervillain. The bribe was a blank check signed by one of Batman's 'civilian agents' (Bruce Wayne), made out to the orphanage where the supervillain grew up. Ironic, since Bruce being orphaned was his superhero catalyst.

 

I've never thought of Bribery as a combat skill before...

 

That's good. I'll have to try and use that in game sometime. I can't wait to see the look on my GM's face...

[CTaylor]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Part of the reason heroes don't take on jobs like "homelessness" is that it isn't something you can fix, no matter how powerful you are. Some people are in that condition because they are too loony, drunken, or worthless to actually make it without constant supervision. Do you throw them into a prison in all but name? The supreme court of the US ruled that unconstitutional in the 1980s. Do you "fix" them with mind control etc? Yeah, that's real heroic - ask the Squadron Supreme how well that works out.

 

Some people are homless because of lousy luck, they just got fired and had a series of catastrophes affect them. Some are like that because they made a lot of stupid decisions and had no one to fall back on or didn't know how to get out of it. How do you fix that? Throw them stacks of cash? Build homes and pay for them while people sit in the houses and thank you for their free stuff? What do you do with the next 10,000 people who show up at your door because they've suddenly become homeless when they see you're giving away houses and food?

 

Some of these issues are insoluable by human might and ingenuity, best to stick to things you can fix like crime, disasters, soup lines, etc.

[pinecone]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Part of the reason heroes don't take on jobs like "homelessness" is that it isn't something you can fix' date=' no matter how powerful you are. [b']Some[/b] people are in that condition because they are too loony, drunken, or worthless to actually make it without constant supervision. Do you throw them into a prison in all but name? The supreme court of the US ruled that unconstitutional in the 1980s. Do you "fix" them with mind control etc? Yeah, that's real heroic - ask the Squadron Supreme how well that works out.

 

Some people are homless because of lousy luck, they just got fired and had a series of catastrophes affect them. Some are like that because they made a lot of stupid decisions and had no one to fall back on or didn't know how to get out of it. How do you fix that? Throw them stacks of cash? Build homes and pay for them while people sit in the houses and thank you for their free stuff? What do you do with the next 10,000 people who show up at your door because they've suddenly become homeless when they see you're giving away houses and food?

Some of these issues are insoluable by human might and ingenuity, best to stick to things you can fix like crime, disasters, soup lines, etc.

 

 

I have to agree...even JC said that poverty was beyond his power, what super power is in that class? The facts are that social problems require social solutions, power can only do so much....

[Clonus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

"Mr. President, we'd like to talk to you about funds provided to your third world nation for sanitation that somehow manage to end up at your brother-in-law's construction company despite it not apparently doing any work. Stop it or we will beat the hell out of you, destroy every asset your brother in law or you own (except for the plane, which will be given to the Royal Flying Doctors Service) and then take out your government's arsenals so that you can be thrown out of the country. Message ends."

 

"My, aren't you the spandex-clad optimist." (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

 

OK, so assume a team of superheros with the information resources and accounting chops to audit foreign nations and the firepower to defeat their military and whatever El Presidente can buy in the way of super-mercenaries and personal empowerment. You've done what superheroes do. You've beaten up a villain.

 

Have you solved the fundamental problem?

[Lucius]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

"My, aren't you the spandex-clad optimist." (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

 

OK, so assume a team of superheros with the information resources and accounting chops to audit foreign nations and the firepower to defeat their military and whatever El Presidente can buy in the way of super-mercenaries and personal empowerment. You've done what superheroes do. You've beaten up a villain.

 

Have you solved the fundamental problem?

 

Depends.

 

Let's take an example from another thread years ago on a similar topic:

 

Say my extremely powerful super character decides China needs to get out of Tibet.

 

With or without warning, the highest ranking Chinese military official in Tibet turns up messily dead.

 

Few days later, his successor is dead.

 

Few days later, HIS successor is dead.

 

At this point, "highest ranking officer in Tibet" is something no one wants to be. There's a rash of retirements and resignations and plain old desertions. Suddenly some captain finds he's actually the highest ranking. If he's stubborn enough to stay, he dies the same way.

 

When the last officer leaves, if they haven't taken the troops with them, how long do you think the troops will stay? Especially if the most senior noncommissioned officer dies next?

 

Does that solve "The Fundamental Problem?" I don't know, it depends on what you think the fundamental problem is. But I've just forced the withdrawal of an occupying power, at the cost of, at most, a dozen lives, none of them noncombatants.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that this neat plan will probably be interfered with by opposing superbeings. And then of course you're right back to comic book superbattles.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has no fundament - does that mean it's not fundamental?

[Clonus]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Does that solve "The Fundamental Problem?" I don't know, it depends on what you think the fundamental problem is. But I've just forced the withdrawal of an occupying power, at the cost of, at most, a dozen lives, none of them noncombatants.

 

When dictatorships are faced with having having their bigwigs assassinated their historical response is to firstly crank up their security to the max, and then start killing people in the hopes that this will intimidate if not destroy their opponents. It wouldn't be so tidy. However, this is still basically what superheroes do. Hit bad guys.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Depends.

 

Let's take an example from another thread years ago on a similar topic:

 

Say my extremely powerful super character decides China needs to get out of Tibet.

 

With or without warning, the highest ranking Chinese military official in Tibet turns up messily dead.

 

Few days later, his successor is dead.

 

Few days later, HIS successor is dead.

 

At this point, "highest ranking officer in Tibet" is something no one wants to be. There's a rash of retirements and resignations and plain old desertions. Suddenly some captain finds he's actually the highest ranking. If he's stubborn enough to stay, he dies the same way.

 

When the last officer leaves, if they haven't taken the troops with them, how long do you think the troops will stay? Especially if the most senior noncommissioned officer dies next?

 

Does that solve "The Fundamental Problem?" I don't know, it depends on what you think the fundamental problem is. But I've just forced the withdrawal of an occupying power, at the cost of, at most, a dozen lives, none of them noncombatants.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that this neat plan will probably be interfered with by opposing superbeings. And then of course you're right back to comic book superbattles.

 

What are other nations doing during all this - recognizing that this assassin has decided he knows best for the world, and that he can just kill anyone who disagrees with him? Maybe he will next decide the US should be out of the Middle East, so he'll kill the President. Every nation needs to worry about taking a position (or being made to appear to take a position) that this mystery assassin disagrees with.

[brionl]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

What are other nations doing during all this - recognizing that this assassin has decided he knows best for the world' date=' and that he can just kill anyone who disagrees with him? Maybe he will next decide the US should be out of the Middle East, so he'll kill the President. Every nation needs to worry about taking a position (or being made to appear to take a position) that this mystery assassin disagrees with.[/quote']

 

And the "classic" response to that sort of thing is to just start rounding up random Tibetians and killing them every time one of your top military officers dies. Who knows, they might even get a show trial first.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

And the "classic" response to that sort of thing is to just start rounding up random Tibetians and killing them every time one of your top military officers dies. Who knows' date=' they might even get a show trial first.[/quote']

 

Or just have the orders flow through a "power behind the throne" and give the highest rank to disposable flunkies.

[Lucius]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

Hm. Thinking like a dictator is harder than I thought.

 

A lot depends on the specific powers of our super assassin, and on what kind of super opposition may intervene.

 

Assuming he/she/it/they are able to keep it up, and can unerringly locate the actual person in charge, that person is eventually someone thinking "I can sign this order and thousands of people die, and then in a short time I die like the last five people in my position who stayed. Or, I can get the hell out like those three who didn't stick around and at least possibly not die for a long time yet." Still, the body count could be several orders of magnitude higher than I was thinking, most of them innocent.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if it's a good thing Lucius Alexander can't think like a dictator.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

 

The dictator might also give orders to be carried out only in the event of his death or disappearance. If the assassin kills the dictator, 5,000 polictical prisoners currently in camps are to be executed painfully.