Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

[clsage]

The thread title is a bit cryptic, so let me explain.

Slightly inspired by the old adventure "Terror In The Treasures" and the attached photo I

was thinking about the following:

 

Character X, a bookish curator at a local museum, is unpacking various artifacts

for a new exhibit of a recently discovered Celtic/Pre-Celtic archeological site.

She begins to have a strange, almost mystical, affinity for some of the artifacts and,

to make a long origin story short, ends up stealing them and becoming (in her hero persona)

the incarnation of an ancient "Elvish" (or at least Elf like) warrior/protector.

 

Now obviously, the disads would include Secret ID, Hunted (local authorities seeking

to recover the artifacts), Reputation (thief), etc....But my curiosity has me wondering how

the Hero-philes assembled here would view her, either as GM's or as fellow characters.

Does her initial act of theft (which was, in part, compelled on her by the artifacts...Think

Witchblade, or perhaps the Rogue Angel series of novels) make her less of a hero ?

 

Input anyone ?

 

-Carl-

[Cygnia]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Well, it might depend on who was responsible for "donating" the artifacts in the first place. It may be a case of the donor "sensing the destiny" of the hero to be and set it up for them to be...acquired.

 

Is her secret ID a suspect in the artifacts' theft at all (if not the thief itself, then someone who passed on "insider information") ?

[clsage]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Well, it might depend on who was responsible for "donating" the artifacts in the first place. It may be a case of the donor "sensing the destiny" of the hero to be and set it up for them to be...acquired.

 

Is her secret ID a suspect in the artifacts' theft at all (if not the thief itself, then someone who passed on "insider information") ?

 

Nice point about the 'donation'...Very much in the feel of the Rogue Angel series of books that,

in part at least, inspired the character idea. Hmmmmm.

 

And yes, I think that the authorities would have her on the 'short list of

conspirators' who had involvement in the theft. But probably not as the

thief, since the artifacts cause a change in appearance between the curator

and the "Elf"....

 

Hmmmm yet again.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Does her initial act of theft (which was, in part, compelled on her by the artifacts...Think Witchblade, or perhaps the Rogue Angel series of novels) make her less of a hero?

 

I'd say yes. Even though it is perfectly within genre to "find" a mystic item and be compelled to use said item.

 

Who said life in a comic book was fair?

[Psybolt]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

I don't think so. Plenty of heroes have things in there past that make them questionable. Shades of grey does not make someone less of a hero. It is what they do after they become a hero that is important.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Well, yeah, she stole, but it was pretty much a 'victimless crime'. At the end of the day, those mystical knickknacks were just gonna sit there (until some magical bad guy decided to swipe them, of course ...).

 

If the character is truly an incarnation of some ancient warrior, she could possibly make a case for ownership in the right circumstance, if she is carrying the mind of said warrior around.

 

Admittedly, we still don't know HOW she's going to use the things ... but so far she's just a little shaky on the whole good-bad front, not really in danger of being classified as a villain (out of game, at least ... in game, probably will be, until the whole ownership thing gets hammered out).

[freakboy6117]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

well there obviously too dangerous to have on display in the museum. if it's not her some one would try to steal them.

 

Perhaps if someone else tried to steal them shortly after she opened the box to set up the exhibit and parts of the exhibit where destroyed.

 

that way she could keep them and claim there destruction keeping the police off her back but maybe not a pesky insurance investigator.

 

although she has still stolen them she’s done so to keep them safe from dangerous people which is a bit more noble.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Hey, if it's good enough for Booster Gold...

[Clonus]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Now obviously, the disads would include Secret ID, Hunted (local authorities seeking

to recover the artifacts), Reputation (thief), etc....But my curiosity has me wondering how

the Hero-philes assembled here would view her, either as GM's or as fellow characters.

 

I think as a GM that depends on the real reason why she took them. Is it just that a latent magic sensitivity caused her to sense the power in them, or is she a reincarnation of their former owner, or did they outright influence her mind? For TN Lung this would be a matter of little concern. He fights the initiators of violence, not just thieves. He doesn't really understand the concept of property anyway. For the Wizard of Oz Incorporated, he's probably out to get the stuff back. He doesn't waste time thinking about whether someone is a "hero". For Hellfire, well stealing is stealing so yes it diminishes Elfchick as a hero, but if she can use it for good, then Hellfire would use her connections to try to get her pardoned and the artifacts loaned to her for the public good. Riptide was always prepared to overlook minor issues. He wouldn't care unless it damaged his team.

[Pental]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

We had a hero that did that in an old campaign...he had ancient mystical armor that he aquired from his museum. Eventually he ended up going on the run, because the country of origin sued for the armor's return, and he refused to give it back. Made for an interesting 'pops up in various cities to do good then disappears into the mists' character.

[Querysphinx]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

It really depends. If the first thing Elvish does upon acquiring said artifacts is prevent mystic bad guy from instigating Hell on Earth then a really good case could be made for letting her keep the items.

 

If she's the curator she might be able to convince the Museum/Donor to bequeath the items to her own alter ego.

 

Or the "elf" could simply claim to be the item's rightful owner having her soul kept in the sword for 3000 years and released in time of need. Who could contradict her? Of course then the museum could claim to own her as she is part of the artifact.

 

Of course the Govt. would probably declare the items to be too dangerous for some unsupervised elf to possess and confiscate them and give them to "Top Men" inc.

 

The possibilities are endless.

[OddHat]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

All depends on the setting and what you want to do.

 

In a classic Golden Age game, no one would ever ask that moral question.

 

In a post-modern rusty-iron genre deconstructing wank-fest, she's a criminal hunted and hated with delusions of heroism, but since her foes are cannibalistic pedophiles the audience will still support her, so long as her costume is undisguised fetish gear.

 

In a Bronze age game, it's something for her to angst over now and then, and an explanation for a couple of her hunteds.

 

The other Players won't care much; they can barely keep track of their own character's back stories.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

In a post-modern rusty-iron genre deconstructing wank-fest' date=' she's a criminal hunted and hated with delusions of heroism, but since her foes are cannibalistic pedophiles the audience will still support her, so long as her costume is undisguised fetish gear.[/quote']

 

I couldn't rep you again yet for this, so I sigged it instead.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

 

I couldn't rep you again yet for this, so I sigged it instead.

 

I got him.

 

The truth can occasionally be painful....

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

I don't particularly like it, never really have. I've run across several 'secretly a thief' supers characters over time and that aspect of them never appealed to me much. If the character got their stuff taking it from a bad guy instead of from some innocent party, not a problem IMO.

 

This particular character:

 

1) I think once the background of the items is known (stolen from museum) the other heroes would have a hard time associating with her. If they're also wanted or she's in a solo game, not as big of a deal.

 

2) Unless this is an important aspect of the character, easy to change.

A) The packages were sent to her directly by parties unknown.

or

Evil elf-thing came after another piece in the museum, she somehow defeated it, elf went away but stuff stayed. Felt affinity, using bad guy's gear.

[Alibear]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Booster Gold did it, why not here too?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

I see no problems with her origins or her methods. Booster Gold stole his Gadgets and Gear from a the 25th century Museum of Superheroes exhibits along with his Security Robot, Skeets.

 

There are a number of Superheroes and Supervillains who started their careers as Thieves or Treasure Hunters. So why not a Faerie Sidhe Warrior/Guardian.

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Not particularly. In fact a couple of Champions campaigns back one of the PC's had an almost identical origin story.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Is it really stealing if she's the rightful owner?

 

If something compelled her to use the artifacts, then can that something be considered the will of the original owner in any way, whether it's a spell or another agency putting the items in the character's way?

 

It may be that whoever dug 'em up is the thief, not your hero. =P

[Clonus]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Booster Gold did it' date=' why not here too?[/quote']

 

I thought that seriously damaged Booster. I liked the original presentation of Booster because he wasn't really doing anything wrong. Making him into a theif though made him a phony.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

I thought that seriously damaged Booster. I liked the original presentation of Booster because he wasn't really doing anything wrong. Making him into a theif though made him a phony.

 

Huh? That was part of his original origin as presented in his first book.

[David Blue]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

I don't think she's at all shaky on the good / bad thing. She's right, and she should keep doing what she's doing.

 

Imagine in future every Christian artifact was owned by a museum, and wasn't allowed to be used for any other purpose than museum display. Imagine that somebody then got hold of a bible, read it, believed it, and started to preach from it - that is they use the holy item exactly the way it was intended to be used. Would they have the right to do so? I would say: of course they would.

 

Or, imagine if a museum disinterred your grandfather's corpse, and against his will, your will and your family tradition, put him on display like a bug in a glass case, and the law supported it. Would you have the moral right to "steal" your grandfather's corpse and see that it was properly reburied, if you practically could? I would say: of course you would.

 

Part of responsible conservation (in the sense that a museum conserves things) is to recognize the moral limits of your claim on things. "Anything that the museum has, it keeps, and claims as its own property no matter what counter-claims come up" is not an adequate rule to follow.

 

There's no fixed rule for how completing claims should be adjudicated, especially with all the odd cases that can come up in a superhero world. But I'd say demonstrating that your ownership of the items was in line with the intentions of the creators and historical owners by actually transforming into something in line with their intentions and then acting in accordance with their values would be pressing your claim in the strongest way short of proving that you personally were the items' creator and owner.

 

It would be very reasonable for the museum to want to negotiate a compromise solution. The elf hero could spend regular time in the museum and allow visitors. Even if it was only a fifteen minute showing a week, the attendance would be huge - enough eventually to make up for even a huge dollar loss on the item. The elf hero might be filmed and scientifically examined, and sign over the rights to that data to compensate the museum for its scientific loss. The elven hero might say that his code was against both those things, but he could undertake a quest to compensate the museum with other items that could be legitimately examined and shown to the public.

 

If the elf hero didn't do anything like that, when reasonable compromises were on offer, then yes that would be unheroic.

 

But if the museum just took the attitude that they owned everything and what the elves wanted with their own sacred items was of no importance, then they'd be acting like a typical nuisance hunted, and morally they could be treated as such.

[Oruncrest]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

Huh? That was part of [booster]'s original origin as presented in his first book.

 

What I suspect Clonus means is that, prior to Booster Gold #6, Booster was seen as a celebrity, basically Sean Penn in spandex. After #6, Booster was constantly fighting off charges (from people who had no idea about his origin, no less) of being a 'mercenary'. When he had to return to the 25th Century for medical treatment and more power rods for his Booster Suit, he was arrested, tried, and nearly executed, and he found out that the Press had hounded his mother into the grave.

 

So stealing his gear didn't work out so well for him, did it?

[rjcurrie]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

What I suspect Clonus means is that' date=' prior to [i']Booster Gold #6[/i], Booster was seen as a celebrity, basically Sean Penn in spandex. After #6, Booster was constantly fighting off charges (from people who had no idea about his origin, no less) of being a 'mercenary'. When he had to return to the 25th Century for medical treatment and more power rods for his Booster Suit, he was arrested, tried, and nearly executed, and he found out that the Press had hounded his mother into the grave.

 

So stealing his gear didn't work out so well for him, did it?

 

All my point was, is that the origin is included earlly enough in the series that I suspect it was always part of Dan Jurgens' vison of the character. Any disappointment can only come from the read making false assumptions about the character as opposed to a change being made by the creators -- which is how I interpreted the original comment.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

 

All my point was' date=' is that the origin is included earlly enough in the series that I suspect it was always part of Dan Jurgens' vison of the character. Any disappointment can only come from the read making false assumptions about the character as opposed to a change being made by the creators -- which is how I interpreted the original comment.[/quote']

 

Yup. It's like saying "I really liked those new Superheroes, the Thunderbolts, until they retconned them to being disguised villains on the last page of the first issue".