Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

[JmOz]

Steve recently was asked this question in the rules forum

 

I was building a dream based character, and was looking for the rules on sleep deprivation for 'inspiration' as to what might happen to someone who doesn't sleep for a long time (without the appropriate Life Support).

 

Unfortunately, I can't locate any such rules. What does happen to someone who does not sleep for an excessive period of time in HERO system?

 

To which he answered

 

I'm sorry, but I can't answer that. I'd have to spend some time doing research on how sleep deprivation affects the body, and until I can use it in a book I don't really have time for that.

 

So my question to Steve specificaly, and anyone else who wants to chime in

 

What have you been doing the last few years Steve? I thought all these books for 5th edition were proof that you had been seeing the affects of sleep deprivation first hand...

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Apparently lack of sleep will kill you before lack of food will. Of course lack of air or water will kill you much quicker

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Is this supposed to be a combat effect or something else? As a combat effect I would say you are looking at a long duration Drain vs. DEX, INT, and END primarily. You could argue for the Drain to affect STR, CON, EGO, and STN too, depending on how much of an effect you are looking for.

 

For other effects, one has to ask why people need to sleep in the first place. Of course no one knows for certain, but scientists theorize people need sleep to transfer short-term memories into long term ones, so it becomes critical for learning new skills. Sleep deprivation might then be modelled as Mind Control, only to inhibit learning (you might handwave that one and say a depressed INT will accomplish the same thing).

 

Also hypothesized is that sleep is need for the brain to get back to equilibrium; basically if the neurons are firing all the time they get overstimulated and start to run amok. That could lead to anything from a case of the jitters and impairment of muscle control (DEX Drain again) to full-blown hallucinations (dreaming while awake basically, modelled as random Mental Illusions).

 

And then because this is fiction, we can also say that lack of sleep will allow creatures from other dimensions to possess the afflicted individual (demons, dream shades, thought eaters, or even the character causing the sleep deprivation in the first place). Or some other supernatural/otherworldly event might occur, who knows?

[Alibear]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Ask any parent or soldier - you can used to anything over time.

 

Having said that I found trouble concentrating over long periods and became irritable and short tempered. (short tempered me?)

 

I'd plug it as an Int, Ego drain & maybe Dex & Con to boot. (maybe even triggering enraged easier)

[Karmakaze]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Here are some places to start, for folks who want to research sleep deprivation themselves:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder%29

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/242559/What_happens_when_you_stay_awake_for_eleven_days_

http://www.gelfmagazine.com/archives/sleeping_in.php

 

http://www.sleeplessinpenzance.co.uk/

 

http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2000_02_09_Sleep.html

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1690

 

http://www.damninteresting.com/the-consequences-of-excessive-wakefulness

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

The longest I've ever gone without sleep was 49 hours, and believe me... that was plenty long enough. Based on my experience, I'd say it unquestionably lowers EGO (impulse control becomes very difficult), and probably INT (at least in terms of being able to concentrate). I'd also say it lowers END (I didn't feel like I had the energy to do anything.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

I've made it 56 hours with out sleep, and semi-regularly manage 24-30 hours.

 

There's definitely various periods. Around the normal cycle end time (somewhere between 18 and 22 hours) I become lethargic, sounds are hard to discern, and I'd like to go to bed thanks.

 

About 24 hours a second wind kicks in, it feels a lot like the 'runners high' I get after a really good workout at the gym, but I lose my apetite and have to remember to eat to keep going.

 

About 30 hours I become ravenous if I haven't eaten anything yet, I'm still alert, and awake, but don't notice everything.

 

Somewhere before 40 hours I want to go to sleep again. My reaction time drops, the edges of my vision closes in - losing peripheral vision almost completely sometimes. If I don't go to sleep I get a third wind (well, I got a third wind once, I've never made it past 36ish hours more than once).

 

Around 50 hours the third wind was gone, but my body was in some kind of survial mode because I was hyper-aware. Motions and Sounds came in with a weird clarity, I could almost listen to separate conversations at once in a busy room.

 

Around 56 hours the body had enough - it was done and I made the mistake of lying down. I slept for 10 hours without waking.

[ajackson]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Broadly speaking, lack of sleep has effects similar to intoxication; I'd call it a drain on Dex, Int, OCV, and DCV.

[Steve Long]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

What have you been doing the last few years Steve? I thought all these books for 5th edition were proof that you had been seeing the affects of sleep deprivation first hand...

 

No, they're proof that I don't get very much sleep. Not that I suffer any of the effects of sleep deprivation. It's all part of the training I received at a hidden monastery in the Himalayas back in 1973.

 

All this brings to mind a story about events on the set of The Marathon Man. As you know if you've seen the movie, there's a scene where Dustin Hoffman's character is supposed to have been up for three days without sleep. Hoffman, wanting to play it true, stayed up for three days before filming the scene. He shows up on the set. Sir Laurence Olivier, who played the villain, saw him, and asked, "Good lord, Dustin, you look awful. What happened?"

 

"Well, I need to look like I've been up for three days, so I went ahead and stayed up for three days."

 

Responded Olivier, "My dear boy, it's called "acting" for a reason."

[JmOz]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Wow---I posted this as a joke, but people got serious. I hope it actualy helps the original poster some...

[teh bunneh]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

About 30 hours I become ravenous if I haven't eaten anything yet' date=' I'm still alert, and awake, but don't notice everything.[/quote']

 

Calories can substitute for sleep for brief periods of time. Soldiers and doctors who have to stay up for 36-hour shifts consume massive amounts of food. High-protein is best, from what I hear.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Hey, in some games it can become important.

 

We have one campaign where the GMs goal is occasionally to get the characters stuck in a loop where he gets to use his Sleep Deprivation Rules (EGO Rolls to prevent suffering penalties of various kinds).

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Apparently lack of sleep will kill you before lack of food will. Of course lack of air or water will kill you much quicker

 

I don't believe that's been proven for human beings. The longest verified account I've read about a person staying awake continuously was 11 days, and the subject was definitely alive and in reasonably good physical health afterwards (though perhaps not entirely alert for some time).

 

Of course, if you do things like drive or operate heavy machinery in the process of extreme sleep deprivation, something might kill you even if it's not a direct result of lack of sleep.

[Alibear]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Insomniacs get by on an hour a two a night if they're lucky.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

My insomnia causes more problems than just staying awake ever did. Insomnia tricks the body into thinking it might get rest and then yanks that rug out while resetting the timer so to speak.

 

I hate insomnia.

[lemming]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

One of the first DDCs I went to, I stayed up the entire time. I managed a couple catnaps, but had massive amounts of caffeine in my system. During the Con, food and caffeine kept me going. And then drove back to Santa Cruz from Oakland.

 

I had a van full of people, none who could drive stick shift besides myself, so I drove. I swear there was this one point driving over the hill where the cars morphed into dinosaurs. They used hand signals. I didn't tell my passengers this interesting bit at the time, but something I said kept Sam awake and talking to me the rest of the drive. We got back, I dropped people off and I hit my mattress. 18 hours later, I moved again.

[Naanomi]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Just for the record, I think I am going with...

 

Curse of Insomnia: Drain REC, INT, AGI, SPD 1 1/2d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support (No Sleep); All Or Nothing; +0), Damage Over Time (32 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Day, +0), Expanded Effect (x4 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1 1/2), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Week; +2 1/2) (75 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Skill roll: Oneiromancy; -1/2)

[Max Callahan]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

My wife and I just got finished an about 96 hour long push to get a sewing commission done for it's deadline.

In that 96 hours we got one 3 hour nap and 5-6ish 20 minute naps.

 

I'll second what everyone has said about the effects on Int Ego and End, and i'll add in that the point you simply can't stay awake is an important factor.

I'm the second string sewer, so I had points where I was waiting on instructions, those times were deadly, if there was nothing to do staying awake would become almost impossible and I'd have to walk around the house to keep awake until the next thing to do came up. Having something to do would keep us awake for another few hours past that point, eventually though, we'd find ourselves nodding off at the sewing machine, and it would be time for a 20 minute nap, 20 minute naps would stop the nodding off for another 8-10 hours, but did nothing to help any of the other effects, the one 3 hour nap we got mid way through did feel almost like a full nights sleep though.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

The house rule we have always used within my group for sleep deprivation is very simple. 1 point of REC is lost after the first night without sleep, another 2 points after the second night, another 3 after the third night and so forth. Of course this does not simulate all of the effects of sleep deprivation but it does have the advantage of simplicity, and it means characters are less and less effective in combat the more sleep they loose. Eventually all when all REC is gone and characters can't recover from END loss at all they will run out of END and 'fall asleep' whether they like it or not.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Yon can add a drain COM to that; there's a reason they call it "beauty sleep" afterall...

[Carnus]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

The longest I went without sleep was 72 hours. Near the 72 hour mark, when I was walking around I could hear a crowd of people talking but couldn't understand what they were saying so I would stop and listen only to have the voices stop. This continued a few times till I decided it was best to go to sleep Also I found myself intensely focusing on tasks.

[dmjalund]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

treat it like an addiction (assuming people are trying to stay awake) have EGO rolls each time a person gets into a restful position to avoid falling asleep

[likwidneo]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

While some of these anecdotes on sleep deprivation are pretty funny, I think there IS an answer in the book.

 

taken from 5ER:

 

DEPENDENCE

A character with this Disadvantage is dependent

on a certain substance or item. If he cannot get

it, he suffers negative effects, possibly even injury

or death. You can use this Disadvantage to simulate

drug addictions and other chemical dependencies,

aquatic superheroes who cannot remain out of

the water for more than an hour, a gadgeteer who

depends upon a constant supply of spare parts to

keep his battlesuit operating properly, and so forth.

 

Disadvantages Gained During Game Play

Sometimes a character “earn” extra Disadvantages

during play — being Hunted by an antagonist

he recently defeated, for example. Characters do not

get extra Character Points for this; it’s just a fact of

life for roleplaying game characters.

 

Just give the char in question a 0point Dependent Disadvantage. You can start it off light by giving him Incompetence or Weakness, and make it progressively more severe over time, possibly eventually resulting in him taking 2D6 or 3D6 in damage if the issue persists over weeks or months.

[Armitage]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Going back to ancient history, Adventurer's Club #13 had an article, "Death in the Great Outdoors" by Greg Porter, that included sleep deprivation.

A character needs 24/REC hours of sleep each night. This works well for normal humans, but a lot of superhumans would then need little or no sleep.

-1 EGO, INT, and PRE per night without enough sleep.

EGO roll to avoid distraction during boring or repetitive tasks. Fall asleep if the roll is missed by 2 or more.

Sleeping for twice as long as needed negates all accumulated penalties.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Open Followup to Steve Long's answer about being sleep deprived

 

Going back to ancient history, Adventurer's Club #13 had an article, "Death in the Great Outdoors" by Greg Porter, that included sleep deprivation.

A character needs 24/REC hours of sleep each night. This works well for normal humans, but a lot of superhumans would then need little or no sleep.

 

Well, 1 point of Life Support reduces it to 8 hours/week, which is effectively an hour per night. And the Supers source materials are full of examples of characters operating effectively after "not sleeping for a week".

 

This also starts the typicaly character with a need for 6 hours/night, rather than 8 hours. We could increase the numerator to, say, 30. That would leave Joe Average needing 7.5 hours per night, and 3 REC needs 10 hours. The probolem at the low end is any drop will have a substantial impact.

 

Maybe we could start with the presumption that people need 8 hours of sleep per night, and start assessing penalties if they get less than they need, removing the link to REC.

 

-1 EGO, INT, and PRE per night without enough sleep.

EGO roll to avoid distraction during boring or repetitive tasks. Fall asleep if the roll is missed by 2 or more.

 

This seems a very light penalty - is that -1 to the roll (rather than the stat), such that it's really -5 to the stat?. Maybe the penalty should be -1 for every hour, or every two hours, of sleep missed. Ego roll to avoid falling asleep when the opportunity presents itself seems reasonable, but maybe only after (say) 4 hours or more sleep missed (or a -3 total penalty accumulated).

 

Sleeping for twice as long as needed negates all accumulated penalties.

 

That seems excessive. Miss one night's sleep and you need 3 days of 8 hours, or 16 straight hours, to catch up? Maybe 6 hours to negate one penalty stage, and another eliminated for each extra hour (or perhaps even faster)?