Please tell me why this is wrong!

[GoldenAge]

"If you use "Change Environment" in a room, it instantly changes the temperature of all the air within. Likewise, if you cast it on a cup of water, it doesn't heat the cup, then gradually heat the water, it's all instantly changed x temperature levels.

 

Likewise, raising the temperature of a 29 degree block of ice by 30 degrees instantly gives you a volume of water that is 59 degrees. Since there is no such thing as 59 degree water-ice, they would be free. It fits just fine within the rules, change environment does not pertain only to air."

 

 

This argument was presented to me by a player in response to my ruling that Change Environment couldn't instantly melt a small glacier thus freeing 2 of his comrades trapped within. Please help me rubuke this line of reason with kindness.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

Because Hero reasons from effect. The characters are trapped in ice. Change Environment doesn't negate Entangle.

 

Special effects and logic allow that changing the temperature would melt the ice and thereby free the characters, but as it's not a direct mechanical negation, the GM is within his bounds to say it's going to take some time.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

The player's logic makes sense to me, but it sounds like there are details you haven't given us. Why do you think it wouldn't (or shouldn't) work?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

Because Hero reasons from effect. The characters are trapped in ice. Change Environment doesn't negate Entangle.

 

Special effects and logic allow that changing the temperature would melt the ice and thereby free the characters, but as it's not a direct mechanical negation, the GM is within his bounds to say it's going to take some time.

 

To a certain degree, I agree with this.

 

However, the 'block of ice' could arguably be assumed to have Limitations representing its vulnerability to high temperatures as well.

[Beast]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

I would say the CE would free the friends over time(not in combat) or keep them alive(LS vs cold) till they could get some fire power to free them

you could go that there are 2 competing CEs

[GoldenAge]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

More detail... The block of ice was created to snuff out a 180 Active Point napalm-like fire attack.

 

I felt that if I allowed this attack with Change Environment (which the book explicitly says: ...can cause minor amounts of damage or related combat effects. Change Environment should not be as effective at causing damage or creating other effects as other Powers (i.e., a Change Environment effect should not do nearly as much damage or have as strong an effect as a similar Power for the same amount of Character Points) then I leave open the use of Change Environment as an anti-Ice Powers power.

 

Change Environment seems to be a bit of a Pandora's Box. If I allow it to cancel 180 AP powers (for 30 AP of Change Environment) then I must allow the character with Change Environment to automatically freeze eyeballs (or the moisture on them... What about blood? Raising the temperature of blood from 98.6˚ just 1 level to around 114˚ would cause death.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

I would say the CE would free the friends over time(not in combat) or keep them alive(LS vs cold) till they could get some fire power to free them

you could go that there are 2 competing CEs

This was my take.

 

I calculated that the CE would increase the ambient temp around the iceberg to 110˚ F. That would certainly hasten the melting process, but it would still take many minutes to free those trapped (and without oxygen) inside.

 

If I allowed the entire ice to be changed in temp... then don't I also have to allow CE to affect the core of a metal block, or the center of an opaque block of plastic? From there its a simple leap of logic to body cavities.

[Greywind]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

Personally, it would depend upon the SFX of the Change Environment and the SFX of the Entangle. Increasing or decreasing the ambient temperature of an area through the use of Change Environment does not and will not change the temperatures of every object within the area of effect to the same degree at the same rate. Physics don't work that way.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

To a certain degree, I agree with this.

 

However, the 'block of ice' could arguably be assumed to have Limitations representing its vulnerability to high temperatures as well.

Or the 'block of ice' could arguably be assumed to have resistance to high temperatures - I think this logic is a wash (no pun intended)

[Chimera 12]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

More detail... The block of ice was created to snuff out a 180 Active Point napalm-like fire attack.

 

[...]

 

Change Environment seems to be a bit of a Pandora's Box. If I allow it to cancel 180 AP powers (for 30 AP of Change Environment) [...].

Whoa. 30 AP of Change Environment cancelling out 180 AP of a fire-based attack? Dispel and Suppress wish they were that good...

[Tasha]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

This was my take.

 

I calculated that the CE would increase the ambient temp around the iceberg to 110˚ F. That would certainly hasten the melting process, but it would still take many minutes to free those trapped (and without oxygen) inside.

 

If I allowed the entire ice to be changed in temp... then don't I also have to allow CE to affect the core of a metal block, or the center of an opaque block of plastic? From there its a simple leap of logic to body cavities.

 

Yeah, I have to agree with you. CE is supposed to reflect minor changes like light sources or ice on the ground. Making the cold temps warmer. Once the conception for the power switches to something that is a damaging attack (ie causing body cavities to boil).

 

If the character with the CE is a fire based character and is looking for a way to free his friends from the plot device 180point entangle (and a 180pt power is basically a plot device). Then as a one off thing I might allow that character to weaken the entangle or use it to make his fire attacks work better against the ice block. I would make it clear that in the future they should buy the correct power, ie a Dispel vs ice/cold attacks, a Suppress vs Cold/Ice, or a flat out attack power.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

If the character with the CE is a fire based character and is looking for a way to free his friends from the plot device 180point entangle (and a 180pt power is basically a plot device). Then as a one off thing I might allow that character to weaken the entangle or use it to make his fire attacks work better against the ice block. I would make it clear that in the future they should buy the correct power, ie a Dispel vs ice/cold attacks, a Suppress vs Cold/Ice, or a flat out attack power.

 

The character was a mage with a 30 pt VPP. He could have opted for Tunneling or Teleport other or whatever. Regardless, the discussion is valid and I'd like to be prepared for the next time a clever player who understands the thermodynamics of ice (only being as cold ad 32˚ and requiring only a few degrees of increase to be totally transformed to H2O) tries this again.

 

Another question about water... Since it can exist in both gaseous and liquid states at the same temperature what is stopping a character with Change Environment from turning a lake into fog? At first glance it seems simple... But what if its 60 points of CE (assume a VPP) and a big cruise liner is floating in that water? That CE could potentially transform (5thEd) 2048" Radius of water into gas or a sphere of water 8192 meters in diameter = just over 5 miles!!! Ship go CRASH!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

That would be Transform.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

That would be Transform.

Agreed, that's what I said the CE vs. ice should be...

 

However, there's that silly little physics hiccup wherein ice remains at 32˚ and an increase in temp of only a few degrees instantly (and naturally) turns it into liquid water. My players are clever, if nothing else.

They're common sense is clashing with gamew sense and I need a simple incontrovertable ansew that disallows such an action (with CE alone).

 

As you stated above (and I'm paraphrasing) CE can not recreate the effects of another power. The ice was a form of Entangle + NND Choke. To eliminate the Entangle one would be required to Suppress, Transform, Dispel, or destroy the entangle. Thus CE can not be utilized to instantly melt the iceberg.

 

What I need is a (rules) lawyer!!! (goodness, whoda thunk I'd ever say that????)

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

"If you use "Change Environment" in a room' date=' it instantly changes the temperature of all the air within. Likewise, if you cast it on a cup of water, it doesn't heat the cup, then gradually heat the water, it's all instantly changed x temperature levels.[/font']

 

Likewise, raising the temperature of a 29 degree block of ice by 30 degrees instantly gives you a volume of water that is 59 degrees. Since there is no such thing as 59 degree water-ice, they would be free. It fits just fine within the rules, change environment does not pertain only to air."

 

 

This argument was presented to me by a player in response to my ruling that Change Environment couldn't instantly melt a small glacier thus freeing 2 of his comrades trapped within. Please help me rubuke this line of reason with kindness.

 

Do you know that they did studies on ice and no how warm it is outside, the internal temperature is still 32 deg farreheit. Which is why ice always melts from the outside to in. So, just because you raised the outside temperature (with in human survivbibilty) really quick, doesn't mean that you would melt a big chunk of ice quickly. Especially the size of entanglement.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

Adding one degree's worth of heat to 32 degree ice doesn't change it to water either. Ask your players if they want to do the math for the specific heat of ice/water or if they want to abide by the GM's rulings.

 

If they're really going to be so difficult that you can't just point to the place in the rules that says a power can't do what another power is specifically designed to do (ie Change Environment vs Suppress or Transform) then you should probably go to a more rules-lite system where almost everything is run by GM fiat.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

The character was a mage with a 30 pt VPP. He could have opted for Tunneling or Teleport other or whatever. Regardless' date=' the discussion is valid and I'd like to be prepared for the next time a clever player who understands the thermodynamics of ice (only being as cold ad 32˚ and requiring only a few degrees of increase to be totally transformed to H2O) tries this again. [/quote']

 

Half-clever anyways... he forgot about (or failed to mention) the energy needed to change phase. I'd rule that the ice around the victims isn't melted, but is softened (reduce its PD/ED and BODY) so that they can be extracted more easily. The player gets rewarded for clever thinking, but it isn't a gimme.

 

Another question about water... Since it can exist in both gaseous and liquid states at the same temperature what is stopping a character with Change Environment from turning a lake into fog?

Just say no. Making it foggy is one thing, but converting an entire lake to water vapor is quite another. There's the latent heat issue again, at the very least. Also, air can only contain a certain amount of water vapor before the rest starts condensing out.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

The thing I'm missing from the initial question is who said the ice was 32 degrees farenheit anyway. Could it not have been 60 degrees below 0? That would require much more effort to raise the temperature.

 

I am with the others who indicate that while you may raise the temperature in a room quickly that you are less likely top be able to raise the temperature of water in the same way or as quickly.

 

I might allow the CE to have very local effects which could be creatively used as already mentioned - bonds being easier to break (ice less firm and so entangle with less DEF, or creating small air pockets and so providing a defence against the NND or anything that encourages creative use of powers).

 

I think the problem with superheroes is that the players quickly subsume the awesomeness of the powers into some kind of superscience and begin trying to apply scientific principles and arguing those lines rather than using their powers to push at the narrative framework.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

Can't impurities in water like, oh, I don’t know, salt, make it have a lower freezing temperature? Although I suppose it still doesn’t get any colder after it reaches that point. Still if you’re dealing with magic or superpowers who says it’s regular ol’ ice and not some super compressed ice, or that it’s made with pure water (or water at all for that matter)?

 

On a different note, while I know you can apply Change Environment to just about anything, I’ve always considered the change temperature part of the power to apply to the ambient temperature in said area. While that might not be a RAW interpretation I think it makes sense in a situation like this. If you want to make someone spontaneously combust you use an RKA, NND, does Body, with Safe in high heat as the defense (or one of a dozen other builds) not Change Environment. How is this any different?

 

I know people like to be somewhat consistent with SFX interaction, but there is a line where SFX simply cannot trump mechanics and trying to nullify a 180 point power with a 30 point power is well past that point. I would probably allow a CE to lower the Defense of the Entangle (it’s melting faster) or possibly even do some damage to the Entangle, but not more than a 30 point attack could of.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

Can't impurities in water like' date=' oh, I don’t know, salt, make it have a lower freezing temperature? Although I suppose it still doesn’t get any colder after it reaches that point. Still if you’re dealing with magic or superpowers who says it’s regular ol’ ice and not some super compressed ice, or that it’s made with pure water (or water at all for that matter)?[/font']

 

Impurities in the water make the water stay fluid below the temperture that ice normally forms - so rather than freezing at 32 farenheit it could freeze at 20 or 15. The temperature of the ice may continue to drop after the that point - it remains as ice regardless of how low the temperature goes. It could be -100 farenheit and it would still be ice. Much more difficult to heat up though...

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

The temperature of the ice may continue to drop after the that point - it remains as ice regardless of how low the temperature goes. It could be -100 farenheit and it would still be ice. Much more difficult to heat up though...

 

Maybe not much more... ice takes about half as much energy to heat or cool (by 1°) as water does.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

Interesting bit from the Wikipedia article about water ice:

 

When ice melts, it absorbs as much energy (heat of fusion) as it would take to heat an equivalent mass of water by 80 °C, while its temperature remains constant at 0 °C.

 

It has been theoretically shown that ice may be superheated beyond its equilibrium melting point. Simulations of ultrafast laser pulses acting on ice suggest it may be heated to room temperature for an extremely short period (250 ps) without melting.[5]

 

This would mean that it would take a lot of energy to "instantly melt" a large volume of ice. I'd have to rule that the player's grasp of physics is faulty in this situation, and their power is inherently too weak to achieve what he's trying to do. He'd have to be able to adjust the ambient temperature with the Change Environment by at least +80 °C (+144 °F), just to melt the ice, and the ambient water temperature would then be 0 °C (32 °F), not 59 °F. Taking the advice that a Temperature Level should be 3° to 5°C, at the most generous, we'd be looking at 16 levels just to melt the ice (48 Base Points before other modifiers, like Area Effect), and another 3 levels to achieve the +15 °C (59 °F). If you choose the less generous 3 °C level, you're looking at 27 levels to melt (81 Base Points) and another 5 levels to increase the water temperature to +15 °C. Under no circumstances would I allow this to be used on a living target (buy a KA for that).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice

 

JoeG

[Fearghus]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

I think the problem here is a matter of scale. Change environment isn't specific enough to effect a single item. so you don't raise the temperature of the block of ice you raise the temperature of the whole area. If the argument you first presented held (that the temp of every object in the area could be effected) then if you had a luke warm cup of water (say 100 deg. F) in an average temp room (70 deg. F) and you raise the temp with change environment by 30 deg. the water would now be scalding after the change environment. Furthermore anyone in the room would die from being cooked from the inside because now their body temperature is around 130 deg... at the very least they would all pass out. The bottom line is that change environment is not priced point wise to have that drastic of a combat effect so i would not

 

If you really want to melt ice quickly (in a single phase) that is a transform effect not a change environment.

[Escafarc]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

This is what I use Heroic Action Points and the Power Skill for. Though I would still make it take more than a Phase in this case but short enough to make a difference.

[casualplayer]

Re: Please tell me why this is wrong!

 

For the same reason that you can't punch one section of earth for 90 BODY damage and destroy the planet, you can't affect a block of ice as if it is one monolithic object. You have to strip away layers to be able to affect the layers underneath. Also while you are working to heat the exterior the interior is working to keep things cool.

 

It sounds like the player is arguing for a degree of Indirect and Area Effect that Change Environment doesn't have. It also sounds like one more piece of evidence proving that CE is a PITA.