FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

Heya folx! Time for another WDYWTS thread.

 

I'm now working on the new FH, a hardcover, full-color book that will be our Big GenCon Release this August. So I figured it's the perfect time to get y'all's input about what you'd like to see in the book.

 

Here's what I have planned so far:

 

Chapter One: The Fantasy Genre: An analysis of the Fantasy genre and its elements, themes, tropes, interaction with meta-genres, etc. I'll start with Ch. 1 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there.

 

Chapter Two: Character Creation: A discussion of creating Fantasy characters using the HERO System, including detailed coverage of Templates, Skills, Powers, Complications, and more. I'll start with Ch. 2 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there.

 

Chapter Three: Combat: A discussion of combat, fighting, and related adventuring issues for Fantasy using the HERO System. start with Ch. 3 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there. However, since a lot of that material was put in 6E2, or will be put in the forthcoming HS Equipment Guide, this chapter's likely to be shorter than its 5E equivalent.

 

Chapter Four: Magic: A discussion of all sorts of issues pertaining to magic -- creating magic systems, creating and using spells, implications of magic use, etc., etc. -- for FH. I'll start with Ch. 4 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there.

 

Chapter Five: World Creation: A review of all sorts of topics pertaining to creating and populating Fantasy worlds. I'll start with Ch. 5 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there.

 

Chapter Six: GMing: A look at GMing issues pertinent to FH. I'll start with Ch. 6 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there. Here again, the chapter may end up shorter because of the more comprehensive coverage of related issues in 6E2 versus 5E.

 

Chapter Seven: Sourcebook: Five sample PCs, some sample villains, a Minions Gallery, and a Bibliography. May include coupon for a piece of pecan pie. I'll start with Ch. 7 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there.

 

 

That's pretty much it. So, what would you like to see in the new FH? What topics did the last edition of FH cover that you think need more coverage? What did it leave out that you think it shouldn't have?

[kahuna's bro]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

will this book be a comination of fantasy HERO and urban fantasy HERO or will UFH get its own book again?

[Nolgroth]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Aside from the 6E rules updates, I think you are going to have one heck of a challenge topping the last edition of Fantasy HERO. The one thing I think would really make this book shine is a short setting, similar to the Western Shores from the old 4th Edition version of Fantasy HERO. Something to show how it all comes together. If the book is bursting at the seams and can't fit that, I really don't know what could make it better than a general update for the new rules. Maybe a couple more sample magic systems?

[Curufea]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Possibly better indexing? That's all I can think of. Have regular alphabetic, but a subject index would be good too (grouping by something less arbitrary that letters).

I would like to see some variant character sheets too - that would fit the various flavours of fantasy, especially the published settings (Turakian, Valdorian, Atlantis and the Celtic one). Possibly advise on adapting those books from 5e to 6e so you needn't rewrite them?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Aside from the 6E rules updates' date=' I think you are going to have one heck of a challenge topping the last edition of Fantasy HERO. The one thing I think would really make this book shine is a short setting, similar to the Western Shores from the old 4th Edition version of Fantasy HERO. Something to show how it all comes together. If the book is bursting at the seams and can't fit that, I really don't know what could make it better than a general update for the new rules. Maybe a couple more sample magic systems?[/quote']

 

I think this is what I was missing from the Genre books all round. Fantasy Hero has been a favourite game of mine since it was reviewed in White Dwarf all those years ago when HERO failed to get a good name for their new fantasy game even after consulting the fans. It scored 9/10 in White Dwarf when that magazine was well on its way to being a house magazine where nothing else was any good.

 

I would love to see a worked example of how the GM can construct the game - pulling out the things he wants to emphasise, to get the look and feel desired and then to present that game to the players. Possible (to follow my particular hobby horse) how to present the system differently to the players through a specifically designed character sheet that emphasises what the game is all about rather than being a generic HERO character building sheet.

 

I love the genre books but I am sometimes at a loss on how to progress from the enthusiasm of reading the genre stuff to putting it into effect in a game. Anything that facilitated the move from "this is a great idea" to asking players to come play it would eb welcome.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

While I see a lot of positives to a setting in FH, I think there is a risk that any such setting becomes perceived as the "6e Fantasy Hero Setting", rather than "an example setting", drawing attention away from the versatility of the system. This is especialy the case if there are no plans to update the 5e settings (or publish new setting books for 6e) in the near future. Perhaps a bit of time on each of the 5e published settings (and maybe even some other mini-settings) would be a better fit to highlight the system's versatility, but that's an even greater strain on space, so it seems unlikely to be practical. A couple of pages on the existing published settings would at least set out some approaches that could be taken to putting a fantasy game together, and perhaps generate some sales for the 5e setting books.

 

A stroll through the more common questions from newbies might be useful. The STR minimum seems to come up time and again, as does the utility of STR in a genre where gear is common, and limited by cash rather than points. Maybe a discussion of gear driven by attributes other than STR. Psionic gear drivien by Ego and mystic gear driven by INT, or anything driven by skills outside the Weapon Proficiency/ Skill Level area would make a significant change to the ground rules of a traditional Fantasy Hero game.

[Escafarc]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to see a more thorough write up of blackpowder weapons and skills. Most systems do a good job covering everything up to the 13th century then BAMM! next thing you know you're in the early 20th.

[Steve Long]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Sorry folx, but I simply don't have time or space to put a setting, even a small one, in a genre book this size. However, I do hope to expand on the example magic systems, and perhaps add one or two, and maybe I can beef one of those up a bit with some setting info. I'll give the matter some thought.

 

I'll also give some thought to including more black powder weapon info, though it's going to depend on how much time I have to do research. What's more likely is that I'll try to put rules for that sort of thing into The HERO System Equipment Guide, since it could be applicable to other genres or styles of play. But I would like to cover the subject in a little more detail somewheres.

 

Thanx for the suggestions -- please keep 'em comin'!

[Steve Long]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

will this book be a comination of fantasy HERO and urban fantasy HERO or will UFH get its own book again?

 

I'll probably be able to draw on UFH to expand the discussion of Urban Fantasy in Chapter 1 a bit, but that's all. I don't have room or time to do more, and given that there's enough on Urban Fantasy that we were able to do a whole book on it I don't think a straight-up commingling of them would be a good idea. We have no specific plans to publish a 6E-compatible UFH, but even without that it's easy to use UFH with 6E.

[ghost-angel]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd like to see a few more example magic systems - but some that really stretch how you can alter and use Hero in radically different ways; maybe something like Tuala Morn's magic, or one based entirely on Skills without the Power Builds or something truly interesting.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

First, let me say that I LOVED FH5e. That much of the former stuff will be in the new edition seems exactly right to me, and what I suggest below has more to do with shaping or adding than removing or criticizing. So, to business...

 

Something I think would be great to target at new players/GMs who are coming to Hero System from D&D would be things like design checklists or random tables of some kind for things like dungeons, random encounters, etc. The transitioning D&D DM will read the random plot generator from FH5e 349 and then look for checklists or random tables to build the discrete series of encounters that compose the plot. They've had a lot of help with that in the old DMG, and it wouldn't take a lot to include a kind of checklist or design guide that helps them figure out (roughly) how to set the difficulty of an ordinary fantasy encounter ("attacked by bandits!") for an ordinary 4-6 character party. I imagine you could include references to the Bestiary entries for various kinds of monsters, and that gives the new FH GM a reason to go out and get that book as well. Obviously it's possible to do too much here, but something to lower the cost of entry for the new GM would be welcome.

 

Another thing would be a similar set of design guidelines for building homebrew worlds. This is arguably the hardest thing to do well, and it's the thing fantasy GMs do most often. Anecdotally, I've met more people using their own world than a published supplement, even if they're essentially lifting material over and changing the names of things. There's already a great section on this, but I thought it would perhaps help to include a worksheet or a checklist, or maybe a few random tables to get people from the excellent high-level discussion to a written world. Something similar in spirit to the Superhero Gallery in Champions would be a great way to go from zero to high fantasy with some quick selections or dice rolls.

 

The bit about fantastic geography at the end of the geography section was a little spare given how much that can turn a medieval world into the kind of high fantasy world most people have in the back of their mind when they play this kind of game. This frequently ties into the world's cosmology or history in important ways, and a few examples (even in a sidebar) of extreme fantasy geography could be welcome.

 

Also, there is room to add some material to the section on civilizations. This is another area that differentiates high fantasy from ordinary medieval history. I'd think about adding some material in the history section that references the kingdom rules in Ultimate Base (and remind them about the castle-building rules there too!).

 

The part on politics reads a bit like an independent text on the subject because it's pretty high level. How does the enterprising GM get from there to the kind of intrigue in GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire series? Adding in lots of "here's how this gives you fantasy stories" material for each kind of government or social factor (as the geography section does) would balloon what you've already said will be a large text, but I wonder if a running example judiciously placed at points in this overall chapter ("The GM has decided the world has two moons... the GM wants a kingdom called...") would help people translate high level description into something that gets you to court intrigues, famines in the land, etc.

 

Finally, given that there's so much good literature out there, what about quotes and literary references from fantasy literature similarly to the presentation in Post-Apocalyptic Hero? I mention this because after having run a fantasy game with one group of players, they opted to return to D&D because that "felt like fantasy" to them. I thought that what it felt like was D&D, but those two have become so closely aligned in many people's thinking that if there's no d20 in sight, then something's not right. To be sure, it's not like such references are absent from FH5, but the presentation in PA Hero really popped, and kept those sources front and center. I think it would help FH6 to remind people as they're reading that this game lets them set games in worlds they know and love (or build worlds like those they know and love), and that the reigning fantasy game doesn't do that nearly so well.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Most of the suggestions I can think of offhand for the new FH are already planned. The main new one would be to go take a peek at some of the earlier editions, since some of them had interesting ideas that weren't carried forward (at least, I recall thinking so when I read the 5E version, and also the 4E version; I can't think of anything specific right now, but I might post something about it at a later date).

 

Also, a few words on creating "non-traditional" races for a fantasy game would be welcome. We all know about the dwarves and elves that have been popular in Tolkien-inspired works, and often fantasy races are based on either that (as variations on the theme) or a cultural tradition, and of course animal-men are popular, but sometimes new sapient species can be developed -- with a scientific eye, no less, with considerations given to the creature's home environment. (I'm away from my books at present... what were those creatures called again, from the Turakian Age setting, with no heads but faces in their chests? Those are a wonderful example of what I'm talking about.) The real nitty-gritty on that kind of thing is best left to Star Hero, of course, but a few paragraphs on the topic wouldn't be out of place.

 

But has been already said, it'll be hard to top the previous edition of FH other than minor sprucing up and updating to 6E. If magic systems can be shown that stretch the boundaries of what's possible with the HERO System, then that could be a big plus, but overall I think you're right on target for this one.

[Steve]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I found very nice in the new Champions book for 6E was the quickstart character creation examples in the back. I think it would be a nice resource to have something like that in the new Fantasy Hero, if you could fit it into the sourcebook or at the end of the Character Creation chapter.

 

I'd also like to see more expansion on cultural and environmental templates. Those are a big help in setting up worlds where everyone is human. And comments on the benefits and drawbacks of single race worlds and multiple race worlds would be nice.

 

I hope that among the example magic systems that the Valdorian Age magic system makes an appearance. It was quite a good example for Swords & Sorcery magic.

[Susano]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd like to see things for the non-mages to do. Uhm... let me explain that better. Mages and cleric get magical and diving powers, while warrior types get???

 

So, perhaps, you can touch on combat stunts and super skills for the warrior types who want to wade through small armies single-handedly. Like the Feats from Tuala Morn for example. A gentle reminder that guys other than the wizards need love too in a fantasy setting.

 

Also, let me second (or third) any requests for more esoteric magic systems. As has been mentioned, I really liked the magic system from Valdorian Age as well as the spell-buy system from Tuala Morn. Oh! I also suggest touching on some of the "real world" magic system mentioned in the Ultimate Mage.

 

And... let me second (or third) the request for non-Tolkienish races. While the bulk of western fantasy contains elves, dwarves, and orks... err... orcs, some of the new MMPORPGs have trolls, minotaurs, and those blue satyr-looking things from WoW. Or, perhaps, mention how you can do variable races who are all based off of (say) humans. I mean, look at Ringworld, or all of the crazy humanoids I listed in the Chinese section of ABI.

 

Hmm.... some worldbuilding advice would be nice. Perhaps you can crib from the Ultimate Base? (if it contains such info... I haven't read said book yet....). Basically, a brief primer on how to make a world that makes sense (unless you want a totally crazy setting), how to create populations of people and creatures, placing monsters, empires, and so on. I mean, while Barsoom is a pretty rockin' place, it has been pointed out all of those super-giant predators would have staved due to lack of prey.

 

Pushing fantasy out of the middle ages and into the Age of Reason would be nice. This would give us a 7th Sea feel, or that old Lace and Steel game, which mixed Musketeers and Magic.

 

And if possible, a mention of Asian fantasy (which often swaps out wizards of super-powered martial artists).

[Steve Long]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How does the enterprising GM get from there to the kind of intrigue in GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire series?

 

Heck, that's easy!

 

1. Start with the info in FH.

2. Then, periodically insert meaningless and gratuitous sex scenes into your campaign.

3. Finally, seemingly at random kill off one Player Character per week.

 

That'll simulate SI&F pretty well.

 

Finally, given that there's so much good literature out there, what about quotes and literary references from fantasy literature similarly to the presentation in Post-Apocalyptic Hero?

 

Oh, yeah -- that's why I've been reading and underlining Fantasy for the past year. I've already spent a good bit of Friday and the weekend and today just making a list of possible quotes to use, and probably won't finish the list until tomorrow sometime. Believe me, there's gonna be lots of quotes.

 

Humor aside, thanx for the suggestions!

[Steve Long]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I found very nice in the new Champions book for 6E was the quickstart character creation examples in the back. I think it would be a nice resource to have something like that in the new Fantasy Hero, if you could fit it into the sourcebook or at the end of the Character Creation chapter.

 

Unfortunately that's not possible here. The vast majority of Champions campaigns involve basically the same types of characters and the same styles of game play, so coming up with the Superhero Gallery is easy. In contrast, two Fantasy campaigns, even ones involving the same point totals and other ground rules, can be radically different in nearly every respect. If I were doing a setting book, I could do a Fantasy Hero Gallery for that setting, but I don't feel that I can do a meaningful one for FH as a whole. That might be a fun topic for an HPA for the Turakian Age or some other setting, though!

 

I hope that among the example magic systems that the Valdorian Age magic system makes an appearance. It was quite a good example for Swords & Sorcery magic.

 

Sorry to have to disappoint twice, but unfortunately that's way too long and involved to fit into FH as an example. However, I do have it in mind that at some point I'd like to do a "Book of Magic Systems" that would collect (and if necessary update) the approximately dozen magic systems we've published over the past decade, and add a few -- and if so the VA system would definitely be included.

[RexMundi]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Heh....every time I see a Song of Ice and Fire ....point 2 is brought up. I just don't recall that many in there.....Still.....just dug out all the books again to re-read....I think I'll count them and list them by page in a week or so.

 

As for the topic. As much as I HATE, MMO's....a Section in Fantasy HERO dealing with the "online genre", and it's related stylings...(Races, Gear, The way Spells work etc.....), could be a nice touch to toss in there.

 

~Rex

[Susano]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Something else I thought of... pushing the genre into Science Fantasy. In may ways, Star Wars and Warhammer 40k are prime examples, SW especially. I mean, there's no real science there. Grav boats and landspeeders replace flying carpets, droids are golems, lightsabers are magic swords, the Force is your magic system... at no point does "science" enter into it. 40k has more science (even if it is rubber) but it also has demons, holy swords, witches, black magic, and so on. Oh, and cyberpunk fantasy (as seen in Shadowrun and Silent Mobius.)

 

Basically, some comments and notes on combining fantasy elements into other genres.

[RexMundi]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Agreed some more Combo elements would be nifty to have spelled out in hieroglyphics for the LCD crowd.....

 

~Rex...truthfully, thinks Fantasy HERO should be a dedicated work to the REAL fantasy Genre, that of Robert E. Howard and Friends...and the rest of the "other" Fantasy "Genres" be handled in the sidebars.

[Susano]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Agreed some more Combo elements would be nifty to have spelled out in hieroglyphics for the LCD crowd.....

 

~Rex...truthfully, thinks Fantasy HERO should be a dedicated work to the REAL fantasy Genre, that of Robert E. Howard and Friends...and the rest of the "other" Fantasy "Genres" be handled in the sidebars.

 

I think Mr. Tolkien's fans (myself included) would have some words about that.

 

Speaking of which... there are fantastic elements in the Norse sagas, not to mention the Greek myths (although I think you're covering that in a Mythic Hero[?] book) and the Indian epic poem the.... the.... Uhm... I forget its name. So, you can have epic fantasy and mythic fantasy as sub-genres (along with swords and sorcery... or if you're Elric, sorcery and swords.)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Heya folx! Time for another WDYWTS thread.

 

I'm now working on the new FH, a hardcover, full-color book that will be our Big GenCon Release this August. So I figured it's the perfect time to get y'all's input about what you'd like to see in the book.

 

 

Just a cotton pickin' minute Long. What do you mean full cover hardback? I am quite content with the content on my shelves and would have been unlikely to pick up FH for sixth. However, I am unlikely to not pick up a full cover hardback version.

 

Damn!!!

 

 

Doc

[RexMundi]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Now Now that's just an Excuse to buy it....admit it.

 

~Rex....points out Fantasy HERO was always one of the best Bangs for your Buck in the HERO line up.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Bring in the Valdorian Age Magic system to add among the various types and examples of how to structure magic. I'd also like to see a framework on how to create a Runic/Tattoo magic system.

[Matthew Martin]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Chapter Two: Character Creation: A discussion of creating Fantasy characters using the HERO System, including detailed coverage of Templates, Skills, Powers, Complications, and more. I'll start with Ch. 2 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there.

 

Any chance of some short corruption rules, given the importance of that element in archetypal works of Epic Fantasy (LotR), Dark Fantasy gaming (Warhammer, AFAIK) and Space Fantasy (Star Wars)? They could even apply to magic in some flavors of S&S Fantasy.

 

 

Chapter Four: Magic: A discussion of all sorts of issues pertaining to magic -- creating magic systems, creating and using spells, implications of magic use, etc., etc. -- for FH. I'll start with Ch. 4 of the 5E FH and rearrange, rewrite, buff, and polish from there.

 

I'd like to see some notes on things like the 'subtle magic' discussed in FH's section on Epic Fantasy and the LotR RPG, even if it's only a couple of paragraphs on how to use Change Environment. Also (though this may belong in Chapter 2), some focus on PC qualities of character and magical gifts that aren't as flashy as the 'wizards throwing fireballs' (or 'sorcerers summoning demons' for the S&S crowd) that fantasy gaming magic often gets reduced to, the kind of stuff that shows up in fairy tales and epic fantasy. It's been a long time since I last looked at FH5E, so forgive me if some of this is already there.

[mayapuppies]

Re: FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Any chance of some short corruption rules' date=' given the importance of that element in archetypal works of Epic Fantasy (LotR), Dark Fantasy gaming (Warhammer, AFAIK) and Space Fantasy (Star Wars)? They could even apply to magic in some flavors of S&S Fantasy.[/quote']

I'd love to see this as well. A step by step or point by point transform system that gradually changes the victim as the points increase.