Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

[Payback]

Tell me what i need to purchase to find a viper agent or thug with a dex more in line with REAL tactical personnel that are competent with a rifle but not Olympic level dex?

 

What supplements for 6th should I be looking for?

What can I purchase?

I am one of those dam players,Gm's that doesn't want 20 dex, 20 str ... tougher then normal toughs?

 

Am I out of line thinking that this NEW FANTASTICALLY AWESOME move away from Dex being the UBER stat, that we will see better villains and hero's.?

 

WERE ARE THEY?

 

Really it is not that bad but I am hoping that we can see more lower dex villians.

 

 

Even just to spark up convo or to find other threads about this topic.

 

Thanks

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Tell me what i need to purchase to find a viper agent or thug with a dex more in line with REAL tactical personnel that are competent with a rifle but not Olympic level dex?

 

What supplements for 6th should I be looking for?

 

Well, the DEX 12 OCV/DCV 4 soldier on pg 294 of Champions 6e is probably a good start. The packages in the Bestiary don't add much to DEX or CV either. I suspect that if/when the VIPER sourcebook and Dark Champions are updated for 6e, this trend will continue.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

I was unaware you had to make high Dex characters to accuracy before.

[Beast]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

the 3 villain books will have them and more most likely

lest Steve L has a viper book in mind down the road

Can't you take viper agents from 4th or 5th edition and upgrade them yourself

 

I'd go with a 15 dex and flavor with levels to be about 2 below what is average for the heroes

Damage would be 45 active for the agents vs 60 active for the heroes

[Payback]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

First off Enforcer84, is that how you get to 10000 posts?

Inane replies and in complete sentences? What a waste of my thread. Go post else were with that drivel.

Add to it so people can take something away from it other then back handed comments.

I was just using that as an thought sparker.

If that is all you got then See ya.

 

 

 

If Hero gets to a Viper 6th, I hope it is close to what I like(I wrote some crap about how it should be written but erased it)

I am looking for new purchases with the intent to get write ups with what I THINK\HOPE is the meaning behind this 6th edition.

6th edition excites me. It is a really well thought out change to an already Superb system.

 

 

Beast

So, a trained soldier of what ever arm of what ever group. You really think 15 is what they should have?

I know point scale and flavour is a HUGE factor.

I am talking DARK gritty Under the Red Hood sort of story.

I know it all comes down to personal choice for gaming. But isn't 15 a real athlete high level dex for a normal trained soldier?

Did you choose 15 because of writeup and division?

Skill divided by 5 plus 9 makes for fast easy math.

 

See I STRONGLY DISLIKE that mentality when reading writeups of NPC's or when I am writing them up myself.

I do have a viper team of my own. I was looking for others. You helped with a pointer Beast, Thanks.

Question

Do the game creators\writers\authors write up characters not for character sake but for the pencil pushers and nit pickers who would look at a book and say.

This viper agent is wrong. His points don't add up, His Blah blah is bad because he has a 13 dex and didn't pay the 2 CP's so he is a poorly written character thus a flawed game design?

 

See I would rather see an slightly out of point cost character.. Meaning you still add them up right, they just cost more because they are closer to REAL then a group of soldiers with all 15 dex's.

I would personally like to see more 12 and 13 dex characters. Sure they don't add to much, but those scores would certianly show the HUMAN side of hero.

 

 

 

Points be gone.

Typical viper agent off the top of my head in 6th edition

Averages

str 12-14

dex 11-14 - 11 could be the Hudson of the team "Hudson, run a by pass" type soldier.

speed 3 to 4 but 4 would be the elite or commanders of the squad

 

I have only started to hear\read about the villain books. I was reading a What do you want thread.

Any links to them or dates?

[Beast]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

15 is 1/2 way between normal and max human

if I was min maxing,I would have gone with an 13 or 18

18 being the better as it gets an 6 cv and 13-

Viper being a high tech villain group doping up or augmenting with stolen tech would easily be in the realm of posibilities

I look at this way there are Mooks(dex 11-14),Mercs(15-18),Elite forces(18-21)

 

you can go with either low dex and lots of levels or high dex and not so many levels

it is going to depend how much of a threat you want a lone agent to be the public,police,military,and the heroes

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

First off Enforcer84, is that how you get to 10000 posts?

Inane replies and in complete sentences? What a waste of my thread. Go post else were with that drivel.

Add to it so people can take something away from it other then back handed comments.

I was just using that as an thought sparker.

If that is all you got then See ya.

 

[Mod]Calm down.[/Mod]

 

Besides, he's right. Dex, with no limits like NCM placed on it, was generally a cheaper way to make accurate characters, but it was never the only way. Dex for general ability, levels for skill.

 

Beast

So, a trained soldier of what ever arm of what ever group. You really think 15 is what they should have?

I know point scale and flavour is a HUGE factor.

I am talking DARK gritty Under the Red Hood sort of story.

I know it all comes down to personal choice for gaming. But isn't 15 a real athlete high level dex for a normal trained soldier?

 

One of the great things about HERO, but understandably frustrating at times is that everything is easily changed to however you/GM/group sees fit. I've been in games with 30dex/6spd agents, and others where olympic gymnasts would be dex 10-13, just with some extra points spent on acrobatics. It's all very relative. I imagine that the standard superhero game type Viper agent would have a 15 dex/str, as in the source material secret agency agents are often shown to be pretty tough and capable folks (with exceptions) compared to normals, yet still easily outclassed by the 20+ stat supers. If you want your game to be more gritty and with stats that hover closer to 10, you can certainly do so. All the different playstyles are valid, just different.

[Yansuf]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

With the older rules I general made soldiers/agents Dex 11 to 15; with 6th edition I am looking at 8 to 13.

8 to 10 for the "big bruiser" type who has above average Str and Con, and 11 to 13 for the more nimble types.

In either case, an OCV of 4 or 5 with one or two skill levels in small arms and several extra skill levels versus range penalties gives a reasonable marksman.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

First off Enforcer84, is that how you get to 10000 posts?

Inane replies and in complete sentences? What a waste of my thread. Go post else were with that drivel.

Add to it so people can take something away from it other then back handed comments.

I was just using that as an thought sparker.

If that is all you got then See ya.

 

 

 

If Hero gets to a Viper 6th, I hope it is close to what I like(I wrote some crap about how it should be written but erased it)

I am looking for new purchases with the intent to get write ups with what I THINK\HOPE is the meaning behind this 6th edition.

6th edition excites me. It is a really well thought out change to an already Superb system.

 

 

Beast

So, a trained soldier of what ever arm of what ever group. You really think 15 is what they should have?

I know point scale and flavour is a HUGE factor.

I am talking DARK gritty Under the Red Hood sort of story.

I know it all comes down to personal choice for gaming. But isn't 15 a real athlete high level dex for a normal trained soldier?

Did you choose 15 because of writeup and division?

Skill divided by 5 plus 9 makes for fast easy math.

 

See I STRONGLY DISLIKE that mentality when reading writeups of NPC's or when I am writing them up myself.

I do have a viper team of my own. I was looking for others. You helped with a pointer Beast, Thanks.

Question

Do the game creators\writers\authors write up characters not for character sake but for the pencil pushers and nit pickers who would look at a book and say.

This viper agent is wrong. His points don't add up, His Blah blah is bad because he has a 13 dex and didn't pay the 2 CP's so he is a poorly written character thus a flawed game design?

 

See I would rather see an slightly out of point cost character.. Meaning you still add them up right, they just cost more because they are closer to REAL then a group of soldiers with all 15 dex's.

I would personally like to see more 12 and 13 dex characters. Sure they don't add to much, but those scores would certianly show the HUMAN side of hero.

 

 

 

Points be gone.

Typical viper agent off the top of my head in 6th edition

Averages

str 12-14

dex 11-14 - 11 could be the Hudson of the team "Hudson, run a by pass" type soldier.

speed 3 to 4 but 4 would be the elite or commanders of the squad

 

I have only started to hear\read about the villain books. I was reading a What do you want thread.

Any links to them or dates?

 

No you get them by not being a punk so people like having you around. Enjoy your thread.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

6E Champions Universe contains a few character sheets for UNTIL, VIPER, and DEMON agents at the back of the book, along with a selection of their equipment. UNTIL agents are at DEX 15, VIPER agents at DEX 14, DEMON Brothers at DEX 12. However, their OCV/DCV are 5, 5 and 4, respectively, as if they were still Figured from their DEX. Steve Long has mentioned that for characters being ported directly from 5E write-ups to 6E, he's generally keeping all the stats the same to simplify the process and save time, just converting Powers and recalculating costs as necessary. Perhaps newer characters, like the ones he's creating for Champions Villains, will display more variance.

[ned-kogar]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Even just to spark up convo or to find other threads about this topic.

I was unaware you had to make high Dex characters to accuracy before.

 

Well, Enforcer was, I think, offering a good opportunity for convo there. Odd for you to respond so aggressively. Did you feel you were being corrected?

 

Anyway. I think you're making an interesting point.

 

I am talking DARK gritty Under the Red Hood sort of story.

...

Do the game creators\writers\authors write up characters not for character sake but for the pencil pushers and nit pickers who would look at a book and say. This viper agent is wrong. His points don't add up, His Blah blah is bad because he has a 13 dex and didn't pay the 2 CP's so he is a poorly written character thus a flawed game design?

 

I think a lot of published material works from the perspective of 'agents need to be a threat to heroes to X extent, villains to another', which makes sense to a balanced scenario in genre tradition - and there are simple, tested stats to achieve this effect. Not very inspired, perhaps, but the construction of combat NPCs is done to shape and balance the scenario, rather than avoid accusations of not being cost-effective (again, I think your language 'pencil pushers and nit pickers' reads a little aggressively - Hero can be a system of tinkering and arithmetic and it's fine that some like that possibility). The emphasis is on the usability of the scenario, rather than the individual humanity of the minor characters.

 

You're right, it can lack the 'grit' of real life ability levels. I run a much more 'true-to-life' super campaign than most, and I like your take on agents: fit people, but certainly not Olympic standard, who have been well trained in their specialised line of work. Which is one of the reasons I don't have Viper, who're from a very traditional superhero world.

 

Ned

[Vondy]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

I was unaware you had to make high Dex characters to accuracy before.

 

It was the custom rather than law. In other words, you didn't have to, but that was what was done.

[Payback]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Perhaps it was a too strong retort on my part.

But I had hoped for intelligent discourse and I read that one line reply from a poster that has over TEN THOUSAND POSTS on this board and YES I took it as a spark as well as IMHO a hunt for as many post counts as you can have by replying to any thread even if it is meaningless response.

I don't see how his remark added anything to my post.

If it was just my Title Thread he was reading then Fine that is a good answer.

And what does his last remark mean? What does Punk have to do with anything?

 

But anyways. I am not going to touch on this any more as I think I am only adding to the fuel of this and I really just want to talk about this exciting change to Hero and how it affects NPC's.

 

Some great information so far.

To Recap.

Three new Villain Books coming out. Can't wait to read the reviews.

Two. When converting product Steve L has indicated only powers are being worked on.

(Very disappointing to hear that as it will leave the CV, SPEED etc all busted for 6th edition pure)

and lastly I need to do some research on this 6E Champions Universe.

Thanks for that too.

 

ned-kogar

I like what your Gming style sounds like. Very close to what I look for.

I think that is ONE of the most amazing things about Hero. The Scalability of this system is unbelievable. Peons to Gods you can play

I was a GURPS player\GM for a Long time. I have come back to Hero with this edition. It is just better.

Still looking for writeups of pure 6th edition NPC's that (again this i only my view) expect to see. Gritty, low stat normals.

 

Oh and Viper

I use Viper because it basically is Hydra AIM from the comic books that all my fellow players know and love\hate. . I just don't use the full colour when Gming Dark Hero. They are more an evil intelligence agency.

 

Yansuf

I never thought of using a below 10 stat. But, that is a great idea. WHY NOT my brain says. PLOINK... I have just stolen that idea for my Gming.

 

THANKS

[ned-kogar]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

They are more an evil intelligence agency.

 

Nice. I don't have a full scale baddie 'agency of agents', though the heroes run up against the 'goodie' government agency often enough... the UK government is trying to control their superhumans by recruiting them. I've plans to bring in a fledgling US agency based on Project for the New American Century (we're playing in the 90s), fighting against the 'tyranny' of (non-US) superpowered individuals.

 

On a sidenote, may I ask the power level of the PCs?

[Payback]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

On a sidenote, may I ask the power level of the PCs?

really quickly.

 

3-4 spd

60 active points in main attack

DEF around 6-15

most characters with Normal human max

The Dx now are 10 for the healer type protector

12 for the Brick and 15 for the Mercenary

 

A Batman level character MIGHT have a 5 speed in our type of genera we play in right now.

SUPER fast vs a 2-3 normal.

 

A lot of real world weapons that only cost money and have an availability.

Real world equipment and vehicles that is not a cost in Character points either. Just money.

 

It is Dark Champions meets, Horror, meets Danger International, super agencies, and Ninja's with a sprinkling of Nazi baddies.

[Tasha]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

I think that highish Dex will stay the norm for the Champions universe. There's more than 20years of history there that a game company cannot ignore. Hero cannot unilaterally lower the power level of the main universe without risking loss of sales from GM's who's campaigns are at the older levels.

 

I think we will start to see SOME variances of NPC Dex, but not as many as you might think.

 

As you might know, in 5e and earlier Dex included dex roll, when player's phase starts in a segment, some Speed, some OCV and DCV. So having a 20 dex gave a 7 OCV and DCV and an extra point of speed. Dex 14 gave 5 OCV/DCV and .4pts Speed (13 dex only gave CV 4 due to rounding). etc. So some of the stats you see were pretty much dictated by the breakpoints where a player got a goodie (ie OCV). Now I think that most dex will be 3s and 8 due to rounding up rolls.

 

ie if you don't like the way something is written up change it. It's one of the beauties of the system. Which is how easy it is to modify stuff to increase and/or decrease power level.

[Vondy]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

First off Enforcer84, is that how you get to 10000 posts?

Inane replies and in complete sentences? What a waste of my thread. Go post else were with that drivel.

Add to it so people can take something away from it other then back handed comments.

I was just using that as an thought sparker.

If that is all you got then See ya.

 

As an old timer on these boards, albeit not a moderator, I will say it simply: this is completely inappropriate for our community, which has traditionally prided itself on being a polite, heymish, somewhat informal place to hang out compared to many hobbyists boards. In other words, our mores require a modicum of decorum. Some posters are given to pithy comments, aphorisms, and maxims. That's their way. If you don't find their post directly relevant or useful you should excercise the option of ignoring the post and responding to posts that do speak to the topic at hand. Waltzing in freshly registered and being rude out of the gate with the old hero gangsters is not the recommended procedure for impressing herodom assembled. And, just to give you a history lesson, most of the old timers were here before non-gaming-fora posts ceased to count, and posting there has continued with abandon by all. Most of the old timers here, E84 included, have actual post counts as much as 20,000 posts higher than what their profile says, so don't be so sure he cared one iota about his post count when he did a one-liner drive-by on what you appear to think is your territory. Its usu. a good idea to settle in and get a feel for the place, its people, and its customs before you start flinging thunderbolts.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

well said vondy

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

It was the custom rather than law. In other words' date=' you didn't have to, but that was what was done.[/quote']

 

Combat skill levels were always the way for me. It seems more accurate to what is trying to be done anyway. HERO has always been more flexible to me than many others seem to think it is. forget official writeups if you don't like them and create your own.

[Tasha]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Combat skill levels were always the way for me. It seems more accurate to what is trying to be done anyway. HERO has always been more flexible to me than many others seem to think it is. Gorget official writeups if you don't like them and create your own.

 

What the heck is it about some people's inability to modify published characters. Is it conditioning from D&D where the characters in the Monster Manuals were always seen to be somewhat sacrosanct?

 

This is HERO where one can take apart any NPC or PC and rewrite them to fit your fancy and psych Complications. If an NPC's dex is too high then just lower it. There's no Hero Police that shows up to games to make sure that published characters are unchanged.

 

Tasha

[Escafarc]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

What the heck is it about some people's inability to modify published characters. Is it conditioning from D&D where the characters in the Monster Manuals were always seen to be somewhat sacrosanct?

 

This is HERO where one can take apart any NPC or PC and rewrite them to fit your fancy and psych Complications. If an NPC's dex is too high then just lower it. There's no Hero Police that shows up to games to make sure that published characters are unchanged.

 

Tasha

 

I'm with you. I don't remember that last time I used pre-published material as written. Even back when I was using 1E/2E AD&D I modified things to fit my games/players.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Payback, two things:

 

1. I agree with Vondy, your response to Enforcer84 (a Hero Boards veteran) is out of line with community standards. I note that you joined in 12/2006 and have 25 posts dealing with a few specific subjects. If you've followed the boards regularly since early 2007, you'd know your response was out of line; if not, you're a newbie criticizing a veteran without realizing his total contribution to the boards. Either case, not a good way to make a good impression.

 

2. On your question, 6e1 48 "Characteristics Comparison Table" and 6e1 49 "Characteristics Comparisons" indicates Skilled DEX as 11-13 and Competent DEX as 14-20, with Skilled representing an average soldier who has some specialized training and Competent including many Olympic athletes and elite soldiers. So a VIPER or UNTIL agent (that I consider elite soldiers) is assumed to be in the same category as Olympic athletes. With published (in Champions Universe) DEX of 15 for the basic UNTIL agent and 14 for the basic VIPER agent, I think you're going to have to make your own standards of lower DEX and higher OCV/DCV/CSLs to go that route. Personally, I like the decoupling of Primary and Figured Characteristics, and would like to see more variation in that area. In a Dark Champions game, I'm also partial to the old BRTC CORPS "4/2/1" rule - that is, for the base skill group (CSL), for example, "Ranged Combat", you could only have 1/2 the levels in a specific group, for example, "Pistols", and then 1/2 the skill levels in a specific weapon, for example, "Colt .45".

[Susano]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

I'm with you. I don't remember that last time I used pre-published material as written. Even back when I was using 1E/2E AD&D I modified things to fit my games/players.

 

This is the joy of Hero Designer. A few clicks, and I get what I want. Heck, Steve even mentions reworking published characters specifically in the villain and bestiary books.

[Escafarc]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

This is the joy of Hero Designer. A few clicks' date=' and I get what I want. Heck, Steve even mentions reworking published characters specifically in the villain and bestiary books.[/quote']

 

One day when I have enough money to get my own compter again the first thing Ill get is the newest version of HD right now I"m "old schooling" it with PnP and calculator.

[Payback]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Payback, two things:

 

1. I agree with Vondy, your response to Enforcer84 (a Hero Boards veteran) is out of line with community standards. I note that you joined in 12/2006 and have 25 posts dealing with a few specific subjects. If you've followed the boards regularly since early 2007, you'd know your response was out of line; if not, you're a newbie critiealizing hiscizing a veteran without r total contribution to the boards. Either case, not a good way to make a good impression.

".

 

Yes I feel like an ass. I am sorry for the.. I don't even know what it was. Loss of control I guess. Knee JERK(me).

I am sorry for it but there is no take backs. I have to move forward. I deserved what I get and will take it and do intend to make BETTER contributions.

Can I say, that life\work\and a few seconds losing control of myself and taking it out on some one else by building a my own little story of his post in my head.... And to be honest. It does not matter that he is a vet of 10000 posts. A person with one post would not really warrant that. I am sorry.. I will work at being a better poster.

It is just a bad day recorded for ever.(it was a bad week personally for me) I actually have regretted it from ... oh about a day after wards. Only now had the courage to come back and face what an ass I was and write this.

Enforcer84 I am sorry. Really I am, this is not lip service. I can't offer much more then that and a promise to learn, and grow by this. I know better. Write, Think, wait and write again. NEVER ASSUME .

So, please focus on Hero system that really is a great edition.

Help me move forward if you can.

 

Should I edit the ridiculous post I did? Would that be cowardly? I admit I did it but don't want to flame this.

I am not even sure I have the strength to come back to read any more responses.

I originally came here to get away from this stress, and in stead I carried it with me.

 

And honestly thanks for the kind way almost all of you handled this. It really does show the caliber of people you are.

 

I really am not that single post above 99% of the time.