Other People's Characters (and OIHID rant)

[Blackout]

Right.

 

As mentioned previously, I've finally managed to convince my gaming group to give the Hero System another go. This makes me ecstatic!

 

A little background on this group. It's big (between 8 and 12 people). Though some of them WON'T play anything other than D&D. Go ahead, pity them. I do. The GM (not me) has been playing Champs since its 1st edition (on and off; though off for the past 6 years or so). He introduced me to the game in 1982-83; three of the other players were introduced to the game in the late 80's - early 90's. None of the other players have played much, and some of them not at all. I'm the official comic book "addict" in the group, the GM was an "addict" but went on a 12-Step program and hasn't read any new comics in more than a decade. Two of the players (who also know the system) read comics currently.

 

Now comes my dilemma... I don't like the way most of these people make up characters. They approach character creation from a D&D-influenced Min/Max standpoint; combat, to them, is the be-all, end-all and character development/concept doesn't enter into mix much at all. Non-combat skills are an afterthought (if they're ever thought of). And the idea of teamwork doesn't seem to have an impact on them.

 

I know that my opinion of other people's characters really doesn't matter... As long as they have fun playing them, who am I to say they're wrong. Right?

 

Okay. At this point, really, all I'm doing is trying to vent a bit. More than anything else, I'm happy that we're playing Champions (and I'm hoping I can use that as a springboard to run a Fantasy Hero campaign of my own - and maybe ween them from D&D).

 

But.

 

I have one big problem. And that's the limitation Only In Heroic Identity. I've seen a few of the potential new characters that use this as an across the board limitation on their characters with next to NO justification for it. They seem to view it as a limitation that won't limit them, and an easy way to shave points off the character.

 

Again, this really isn't my concern. I'm not the GM. If he feels their characters are fine, then I've no right to squawk. Yes?

 

I guess what bothers me is that, while the character's I've seen are within the "letter" of the rules, they violate the "spirit" of those rules (and the genre).

 

So. I'd appreciate if youse guys (and gals) might tell me to either "lighten up", or give me some suggestions on how I might straighten out my friends' thinking.

 

Thanks.

[Monolith]

There is very little you can do about this, so you might as well seek the serenity of accepting things you cannot change and just have a good time playing.

 

Every player is different, and if the GM is not bothered by the point-efficient combat monsters you might as well just play to the best of your ability and let it go. Far too many people consider the HERO System to be nothing but a reason to have combat in games. But you cannot force people to role-play or design characters in genre. Each gamer seeks something different within the game and they are never really happy if they are denied what they think they want.

 

Just enjoy the game while it lasts and do the best you can to play within your own character concept. That is all any of us can do.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Have you talked to the GM about your concerns?

 

If I was the GM in a campaign where OIHID was being abused, I would institute two "house rules" related to it:

1. All characters must have private lives or other circumstances that require them to not be in hero ID at least half the time. If they're not out of hero ID at least half the time in their daily life, then they can't take the Limitation.
   
2. There must be some way to prevent the change into hero ID, whether by stopping Billy Batson from yelling Shazam or whatever.

Once these two parameters are established, I can then ensure that the Limitation comes into play. People can be theatened or captured in secret ID and prevented from changing.

 

Once they see that OIHID will actually affect them sometimes, they should hopefully go back to applying it only to those characters for whom it makes sense.

 

Ultimately, it's up to the GM to address this issue. If he doesn't want to, then there's not a whole heck of a lot you can do, other than maybe redo your character with a cheesy OIHID just so you don't get penalized for better character building.

[Acroyear]

Viper's sniper teams love heroes with HFO.

 

So do angry teammates with less than moral views of murder.

 

but I didn't say that

[Mentor]

Re: Other People's Characters (and OIHID rant)

 

Originally posted by Blackout

Right.

 

But.

 

I have one big problem. And that's the limitation Only In Heroic Identity. I've seen a few of the potential new characters that use this as an across the board limitation on their characters with next to NO justification for it. They seem to view it as a limitation that won't limit them, and an easy way to shave points off the character.

 

Again, this really isn't my concern. I'm not the GM. If he feels their characters are fine, then I've no right to squawk. Yes?

 

I guess what bothers me is that, while the character's I've seen are within the "letter" of the rules, they violate the "spirit" of those rules (and the genre).

 

So. I'd appreciate if youse guys (and gals) might tell me to either "lighten up", or give me some suggestions on how I might straighten out my friends' thinking.

 

Thanks.

 

I don't automatically consider "efficient" PCs an ubalancing situation, but some character concepts and constructs seem pretty boring if all they do is fight. As you said, it is pretty much up to the GM. If you have a skill heavy Character, just ask the GM to make sure you get to use them to good effect.

 

Also, though I know that some players bristle, let Mr. Combat Suit get ambushed while he's brushing his teeth and roleplay his way to the UltimaArmor occasionaly just to rmind them that just because armor isn't bought as a focus, it still has to be worn to work. Likewise, Inferno Boy's Secret ID will prevent him from immolation in the middle of the Sox game. Just some thoughts.

[Talon]

I suggest venting your repressed feelings of rage by ruthlessly min-mixing your own character in a display of passive-aggressive vengeance that will leave their little OIHID characters squealing like little girls.

 

Works for me.

[FlyBoy]

Being a big fan of Ultraman and Captain Marvel, I am in love with the OHID concept, so I can't really fault them for it.

 

Acroyear- WHat's HFO?

[Acroyear]

HFO = Hero Form Only

 

Predates the BBB, don't know if was ever spelled out that way... but it's a lim we always used - maybe came from the original Hero crew (we played in the same place for a while). We still used the "Hose" advantage a few years into the BBB days.

 

Hose was kind of like an autofire attack that was just a stream, think getting sprayed with a fire hose rather than multiple bullets or something.

 

HFO is shorter to write (vs OIHID) and we all know what it means. I sometimes slip on the boards. Sorry.

[tesuji]

DND did not teach them that combat is the only thing worth paying attention to... their DM did. he did it everytime he made combat the answer to the challenge and every time he made those in between the dungeon events not all that important FOR THE STORY HE RAN.

 

That lesson wont be unlearned until theur Dm taches them otherwise.

 

If your Gm shares your view and intended to "show them" the other side of things, i would advise a plan from the bginning to overhaul characters after a short time. I find that with any radical change in system, after a short time allowing the now experienced players to do substatial character overhaul is a good practice. let them get their feet wet and then build a character they like better for the new system.

[Klytus]

I, too, find it hard to fault players for building "effecient" characters. Even the good players in my group, who build a character for concept and role-play, will eek every last point they can out of that concept, and then some.

 

For example; There is a Guyver (sp?)-like chaacter in one of my games named Star Sentinel. Most of the powers are only active when the alien symbiot bonded to the host is activated, thus a large slew of OIHID powers. But the whole schtick of an alien organism and the host learning how to fully utilize it leaves the door open for a very large variety of powers to be bought and develped down the road. It also means many powers can be bought at discount with the OIHID Limit.

 

And I don't have any problems with it: I'm cool with the conept, he does not enjoy advantages over his teammates because of it, and the player has fun with it.

[Blue]

You're stuck with either a)munchkinism or b)abstaining from the point gluttony and settling for righteous indignation. It's the burden we have as "roleplayers" that we try to justify everything (Powers, Limitations, Disadvantages). Life is easier for those who just want to throw together a character with a power for every situation and meet the character budget.

 

It's an age old dilemma, and one that can't be settled by a player, but only by the GM, as several have pointed out.

 

Take the high road. When it comes to that critical situation where you achieve despite not having number crunched your character to bits, you'll feel that much better for your achievement.

[schir1964]

One possible solution is to run a "Genesis" scenario. Basically, everyone has to create Normals from scratch with complete backgrounds. In the scenario runs, some event occurs that causes them to gain thier abilities. They have to take their current character and add onto it with any campaign point restrictions as normal. It's a good way to get the players to start thinking outside of just combat. It may not work for all, but it's better than leaving it up to chance.

 

I've developed a "Genesis" setting specifically for this called "The Crystal Room". I created it under 4th Edition, but it can be used seamlessly with 5th Edition and even other game systems. It offers the GM many ideas on how to run a "Genesis" campaign.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[DocMan]

Originally posted by Klytus

And I don't have any problems with it: I'm cool with the conept, he does not enjoy advantages over his teammates because of it, and the player has fun with it.

 

And because Kly knows that while I like character concepts where almost ANYTHING is possible, I don't build invincible characters. Each character has a major vunerability or flaw.

 

For example, another character I did with infinite potential: Moleculon, a shape-shifting, body augmenting brick. He broke most of the rules about characteristics and power frameworks. Most of his powers were OIHID. But, for all his flexibility, he had no range attacks other than flinging objects of opportunity.

 

Doc

[Tech]

Blackout, do all 8 to 12 people play at once? If so, how do you handle it? I have a Champions campaign with 6 experienced players and it can be a bear - and it's not because of dice rolls.

[GestaltBennie]

Well, if you want a *real* dirty trick to pull if it seems like the OIHID crowd is getting free points, have someone (prreferably a villain who's an expert in superhuman biological sciences and dimensional physics) pull this on them:

 

Dimensional Disruption Ray: EB (cell disruption), NND (Defense is not having OiHID or being in normal ID, or spending a half-phase and making a successful Power Skill: Dimensional control roll to resist, +1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (turned off by reverting to normal form, +1), 0 END Persistent (+1);

 

Costs:

1d6: Point Cost: 22 points

2d6 Point Cost: 45 points

3d6 Point Cost: 67 points

 

This weapon penetrates the dimensional boundaries that separates a normal form from their heroic persona, causing intense pain if the super form is dominant.

 

If the special effect of your OiHIDs doesn't involve a Captain Marvel/Marvelman-style dimensional shift, adjust accordingly.

 

Warning: Players *hate* this sort of construct (ones that specially targets their crocks). Use it *very* sparingly. Consider letting them use any Power skill roll to resist it after they've first been exposed to it.

 

Scott Bennie

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Tech

Blackout, do all 8 to 12 people play at once? If so, how do you handle it? I have a Champions campaign with 6 experienced players and it can be a bear - and it's not because of dice rolls.

 

My group is 10 + GM.

 

No dice trouble here either.

[Chris Goodwin]

Let the GM know of your concerns. It could be he's got lots of opportunities for characters with lots o' noncombat skills to shine. OTOH, if the players are all making minmaxed combat monsters, maybe that's the kind of character they want to play and the game they want to play in; in that case, go with it, man!

[KawangaKid]

It's a limitation - use it against them

 

If they have a Secret ID along with the OIHID, then keep sticking them in scenes with someone who will do nasty things to them if they find out the Secret ID.

 

Hit them with surprise AE attacks in a crowd. But foreshadow it so they have a chance to move out of the area (just to be "fair").

 

Force them back into normal form once in a while because of something they can only do in that form. (A comic book classic) This can range from Billy Batson's "I'm smaller in my normal form" schtick... to having the normal form try to gain the trust of someone they know... to a magic spell that's worded only to affect "super-heroes".

 

Do hostage situations while they're in normal form, so that any act could cause harm to the hostage. This works best with the Secret ID disad.

 

And so on...

[cjudisch]

If I were you (and of course, feel free to disregard this, it's all subjective opinion)... If they're going to focus on Combat and make every single power with the OIHID limitation, I'd make a "Batman" style character whose Secret ID has almost as much going for him as his Hero ID.

 

Then I'd take the GM aside and say, "Hey could we have one of those moments like you see in the comics where the characters are stuck in a position where they are forced to deal with bad guys in their Secret IDs" If he's the comic-book fan you say he is, he's sure to recognize that it's a genre bit as old as the genre itself.

 

Ex: The PCs are all guests at a swanky party when bad guys show up and take the entire place hostage. Suddenly all the "Must transform into Super ID" characters are STUCK, while the crafty PC who didn't buy all his powers that way is free to act.

 

As i Said, a genre classic.

 

Just a suggestion.

[death tribble]

OiHID

 

I agree with what some of the other posters have said. What the GM needs to do is remember that anything bought with a limitation or a disad is only worth the points if it has an effect.

 

My first Hero the Flame, had Cold and Water vulnerabilty but I knew that going in I would have foes with these powers or people who would use that against me.

 

And I used OiHID for a while. At one stage the Flame lost his abilities and so went around with a gun and a fire suit. All well and good but no Force Field or Flight.

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

[*]There must be some way to prevent the change into hero ID, whether by stopping Billy Batson from yelling Shazam or whatever.

 

And conversely, there is a lot of fun in having a way to prevent the character from reverting to normal, also. Especially if the powered form looks obviously not normal. This can be as potentially damaging to a secret id as the other way around.

 

And accidental change is also another good way to cause these types of risks.

 

This is actually a pretty balanced trade off if the GM is really in control of the game. Limitations and Disadvantages require the GM to actually use them, otherwise they really are just free points.

[Blackout]

Thanks!

 

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who replied and gave advice!

 

And clear up a few things.

 

I have no problem with people trying to get all the possible bang they can out of their character point dollar - as it were. What bothers me is when they cheese out limitations (and do bizarro power construction contortions) to get an extra 2d6 armor piercing, penetrating killing attack, and spend 3 points on a professional skill...and that's all they can do outside of comabt.

 

It irks me.

 

That's not a character, that's just an excercise in mathematics.

 

Now, I like combat as much as the next guy. That's one of the reasons I like superheroes; the big fights can be great fun! And I like making characters who are effective in a fight. I can't stand to have a character who's only useful when the fists and EBs are flying, though.

 

All that said, I know I'll have fun playing in this campaign. I also know that there will be things the other players do that get on my nerves, and I'm (mainly) engaging in a bit of pre-emptive venting.

 

Again, thanks for "listening" and giving some solid tips on handling the situation. I really do appreciate it.

[Blue]

Venting is why we're all here!

 

My campaign is not yet in gear, and I've got a bunch of players I've never GM'd before, so I expect to be in here doing a little venting myself. They're a smart group--maybe too smart. I had to lockdown the rules on character creation or at least three of them would be combat monsters and the others would be constantly upstaged.

 

It's like the old Superman dilemma. If Superman can do everything, why does he ever need to belong to a group? My players potentially wanted cosmic power pools or multipowers with a power for every situation. That doesn't sound like much fun to me, and it wouldn't be much fun for the other players who aren't doing the hard-core number crunching.

 

Is it just me or is the most interesting part of the character its weaknesses? Powers give each character a different way of achieving the same end. It's the disadvantages that make the character unique.

 

Done rambling now.

[Acroyear]

I find weaknesses as interesting as powers... but not moreso.

 

My group is pretty good when it comes to slapping the mechanics around, too.

 

Often, I think I'm too effective, myself. With Omega Man (kind of like Captain Marvel) it seemed too easy. I ended up purposely finding ways to distract him while the others brawled... then maybe I'd swoop back into the fight if they were getting trashed (meanwhile, I'm clearing innocents out of the way and trying to do damage control). In our low poered game, Bolt was just so much faster than everyone I was intentionally distracting him, too, so it didn't seem like I was doing so much more than everyone else.

 

Now with Starman, a GL type guy... hell, he can do so many different things I'm actually getting kind of bored with him. The problem is, I've played for so long, I can't think of anything new and fun to try that I haven't tried yet, really.

 

*shrug*

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Acroyear

Now with Starman, a GL type guy... hell, he can do so many different things I'm actually getting kind of bored with him. The problem is, I've played for so long, I can't think of anything new and fun to try that I haven't tried yet, really.

 

*shrug*

Once, I had this evil rival named Bolt (He was clearly Evil as he kept coming out ahead, had we tied more it would be different *S*) but he wrote up and submitted some characters to a contest. I believe you have access to those characters now. Perhaps you could use one of your.. uhm, his creations, as inspiration?

 

(Seriously, Character block is no fun. My sympathies)